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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26163294 -

the answer to the infinite progression paradox/riddle

is for the creator's nature to be primordial.

there ya go friends.


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26163296 -

Who farted the shart? Big bang is a good guess.

The egg phylogenetically came first.

Point of consciousness vs external universe?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: sudly]
    #26163300 -

primordial

unborn


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26164193 -

Loaded Shaman said:
To suppose a creator is to beg the question: who created the creator?



You are free to ask that question but it does not detract from the original argument.  The physical universe we inhabit and the law by which it consists is clear evidence of a creator that exists outside of those laws. (i.e. super-natural)  The law can not make itself, for by what law would it do so?

In the beginning was the Word - the immutable law by which all of nature continually obeys.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26164297 -

It's counterintuitive. Why would an all-powerful entity hide behind an often unintelligible book, and expect people to see and feel the truth? Facts reveal that people come to different conclusions that result in different lifestyles and maybe there's a glimmer of truth in the variety of opinions, because variety provides us with a more interesting existence. You are not wrong therefor and neither is your opposition, and that could be exactly the way the creator intended it, otherwise we would be set straight without room for error.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26164765 -

with enough charisma and bravado you can emotionally cudgel people to believe anything.
anything.
just make the pressure stop.

relentlessness


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26164798 -

qman said:
saved7 said:
We all have an inborn awareness that nature had a creator.  Nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature.  This truth is literally staring us in the face, every day, all day.

This innate understanding must be trained out of us by society (school/mass media) until we've assumed the socially acceptable and "educated" (though entirely irrational) position that nature created itself....  that nature created the very natural laws by which it is governed.

Like the Copernican Principle, this materialistic 'nature-created-nature' position is supported by no evidence at all, yet is taken for granted as high scientific wisdom of our age.

But deep down we know it's not true.  We know that nature did not create itself... we know the natural laws did not compose themselves by natural means.... the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves. 

In an attempt to escape the truth, we pretend there is no evidence of the supernatural yet the evidence, the creation itself, is screaming out to us every second of our lives, and we run away from it... or we pretend it's just all too mysterious and nobody can know for sure.  "Well science is still working on it........."

In my opinion, it just comes down to severe levels of denial.  Like a child not wanting to admit that playtime is over and that it's time for bed... admitting to ourselves that all of this natural universe around us has a supernatural creator evokes far too many issues about rules and authority that we'd rather not deal with.  We want our playtime to keep going all night, so we believe whatever we have to believe to keep the fun going.

And so we deny the truth all around us.


"nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature"

Where's the evidence, please back up this assertion?

"We know that nature did not create itself"

Again, please provide the evidence for this claim.

All you're doing is making a bunch of claims with zero evidence. You're also making a fallacious argument that people don't believe in your claims because they don't want to deal with some authority figure. I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it.


So what do you think/believe?? Because scientific explanation "big bang theory" is MUCH more stupid and illogical than belief in God.
There IS an intelligence in creation, you are blind if you can't see it. Intelligence doesn't come from nothing.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #26164810 -

redgreenvines said:
with enough charisma and bravado you can emotionally cudgel people to believe anything.
anything.
just make the pressure stop.



The moral relativist might insist that karma gas has brought the two of you together.

The often unintelligible nature of the 'good book' may be demonstrated by the OP giving us his understanding of what a Sin is.

Edited by Buster_Brown (09/02/19 07:01 AM)

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Ethric]
    #26164846 -

Ethric said:
qman said:
saved7 said:
We all have an inborn awareness that nature had a creator.  Nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature.  This truth is literally staring us in the face, every day, all day.

This innate understanding must be trained out of us by society (school/mass media) until we've assumed the socially acceptable and "educated" (though entirely irrational) position that nature created itself....  that nature created the very natural laws by which it is governed.

Like the Copernican Principle, this materialistic 'nature-created-nature' position is supported by no evidence at all, yet is taken for granted as high scientific wisdom of our age.

But deep down we know it's not true.  We know that nature did not create itself... we know the natural laws did not compose themselves by natural means.... the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves. 

In an attempt to escape the truth, we pretend there is no evidence of the supernatural yet the evidence, the creation itself, is screaming out to us every second of our lives, and we run away from it... or we pretend it's just all too mysterious and nobody can know for sure.  "Well science is still working on it........."

In my opinion, it just comes down to severe levels of denial.  Like a child not wanting to admit that playtime is over and that it's time for bed... admitting to ourselves that all of this natural universe around us has a supernatural creator evokes far too many issues about rules and authority that we'd rather not deal with.  We want our playtime to keep going all night, so we believe whatever we have to believe to keep the fun going.

And so we deny the truth all around us.


"nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature"

Where's the evidence, please back up this assertion?

"We know that nature did not create itself"

Again, please provide the evidence for this claim.

All you're doing is making a bunch of claims with zero evidence. You're also making a fallacious argument that people don't believe in your claims because they don't want to deal with some authority figure. I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it.


So what do you think/believe?? Because scientific explanation "big bang theory" is MUCH more stupid and illogical than belief in God.
There IS an intelligence in creation, you are blind if you can't see it. Intelligence doesn't come from nothing.


There's evidence for the big bang, there's zero evidence for a god. :shrug:

"There IS an intelligence in creation"

What "creation"? 

"Intelligence doesn't come from nothing"

What "intelligence"?

You're making a bunch of generalizations with no evidence, please get specific.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26164891 -

Hahaha.. WHAT evidence?? Tell me.


What creation?
- Uhmm.. ALL that living organisms and nature you see around?

What intelligence?
- Cant you really see how complex it is, and how smart it is made?

You're making a bunch of generalizations with no evidence.
- You are doing THE SAME thing.


Edited by Ethric (09/02/19 08:27 AM)

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Ethric]
    #26164912 -

Ethric said:
Hahaha.. WHAT evidence?? Tell me.


What creation?
- Uhmm.. ALL that living organisms and nature you see around?

What intelligence?
- Cant you really see how complex it is, and how smart it is made?

You're making a bunch of generalizations with no evidence.
- You are doing THE SAME thing.




https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/what-powered-the-big-bang

You do realize that no one claims the big bang was any sort of creation, correct?

Nature is NOT evidence of any creation.  Complexity is NOT evidence for any sort of "intelligence".

BTW, I'm not making assertions or generalizations. You're making the claims, not me.

Edited by qman (09/02/19 08:33 AM)

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26164916 -

Just explain to me how some stupid big boom could make all that?
And answer my previous questions please.

Simply, explain life.

Edited by Ethric (09/02/19 08:31 AM)

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Ethric]
    #26164952 -

Ethric said:
Just explain to me how some stupid big boom could make all that?
And answer my previous questions please.

Simply, explain life.


The big bang is a natural process, so is biological life.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman] * 1
    #26165244 -

scientific enthusiasts suppress their laziness and study nature discovering new aspects and principles that are wonderful to behold.

bible enthusiasts are too lazy minded to see for themselves what is right before their eyes, instead repeating what they heard some super yokel speak while raising funds for his charity. (then he gets into his escalade, drives to his helicopter and whisks back to his holy castle with a pool and sexy christian attentants - what's wrong with this picture?)

essentially the scientists and honest nature lovers with nothing to prove have become the weak. the ones who we hope might inherit the earth; but first the christian climate deniers - the polluters of nature for which they hope god will fix everything, have to use automatic weapons against eachother  for a while.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26165247 -

qman said:
The big bang is a natural process, so is biological life.


what is a "natural process" ?
and where did the rules governing this process come from?

seems very superstitious to believe in the spontaneous generation of mysterious undirected "processes" that govern all things...


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26165343 -

saved7 said:
qman said:
The big bang is a natural process, so is biological life.


what is a "natural process" ?
and where did the rules governing this process come from?

seems very superstitious to believe in the spontaneous generation of mysterious undirected "processes" that govern all things...


"what is a natural process"

A process existing in or produced by nature.  https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/natural%20process

Is there any evidence that "governing" takes place in nature?  Nobody has been able to present that evidence thus far. So I would stop using that argument, it's fallacious.  "govern all things"  Again, you need to demonstrate something in nature is being governed at all.

"believe in the spontaneous generation"  Of what exactly?  Nobody is claiming the universe was spontaneously created.  As far as biological life, that is an explainable natural process. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesishttps:/

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26165612 -

qman said:
saved7 said:
qman said:
The big bang is a natural process, so is biological life.


what is a "natural process" ?
and where did the rules governing this process come from?

seems very superstitious to believe in the spontaneous generation of mysterious undirected "processes" that govern all things...


"what is a natural process"

A process existing in or produced by nature.  https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/natural%20process


That's a dodge of the question... You're just saying "a natural process is a natural process."

Why does nature have a process to begin with?

Try making an argument for your worldview, because so far I haven't seen one.  I think it's because you know it's fundamentally irrational.


qman said:
Is there any evidence that "governing" takes place in nature?  Nobody has been able to present that evidence thus far. So I would stop using that argument, it's fallacious.  "govern all things"  Again, you need to demonstrate something in nature is being governed at all.


Of course nature is governed... by laws of nature.  We base our whole existence around the knowledge that nature continuously behaves a certain way.  Natural science would be impossible otherwise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_law

Again, why does this thing called "nature" have any consistent behavior at all?  Where did it inherit these propensities from?  Did nature author itself?  What motivated it?


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26166187 -

Everyone in this thread has a different metaphysical assumption on creation/natural law, and thus will never be on the same page to have a coherent conversation without both sides sounding like they are missing the other's point.

It happens constantly. Actually, it's the main dividing line between opinions: what's your metaphysic?


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #26166358 -

the question about rules for a natural process exemplifies our limits in understanding:
rules or instructions are transfered from a progenerator to progeny.

particle and wave are both at the same time - this completely flips the idea of a greater god to one of multiple myriads of microscopic godlings that are at the same time their own creations.

In this age we have only begun to understand inconceivable reality that is comprised of particles that are waves with harmonics that engender gravity and space time.

you might get a big bang out of it, or you may rely on other fantasies less functional and much more subject to political manipulation of the vulnerable group mind (sangha, or congregation).

it is not about rules, it is about what is.
this phrase could mean something but usually falls apart and becomes a liturgy of baby-talk: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
word is wave
god is particle
but both are one thing.

neither is a figure that looms in heaven to judge its creation save that both make up the stars, and that nature is relentlessly supportive to ongoing processes.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26166378 -

Deep down it doesn't really matter if it was created, unless of course you got a time machine to before the creator died/up and left :shrug: :whatever:


--------------------
I don't know shit.
And the more I know,
The more I realize it.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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