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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator * 1
    #26160995 -

We all have an inborn awareness that nature had a creator.  Nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature.  This truth is literally staring us in the face, every day, all day.

This innate understanding must be trained out of us by society (school/mass media) until we've assumed the socially acceptable and "educated" (though entirely irrational) position that nature created itself....  that nature created the very natural laws by which it is governed.

Like the Copernican Principle, this materialistic 'nature-created-nature' position is supported by no evidence at all, yet is taken for granted as high scientific wisdom of our age.

But deep down we know it's not true.  We know that nature did not create itself... we know the natural laws did not compose themselves by natural means.... the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves. 

In an attempt to escape the truth, we pretend there is no evidence of the supernatural yet the evidence, the creation itself, is screaming out to us every second of our lives, and we run away from it... or we pretend it's just all too mysterious and nobody can know for sure.  "Well science is still working on it........."

In my opinion, it just comes down to severe levels of denial.  Like a child not wanting to admit that playtime is over and that it's time for bed... admitting to ourselves that all of this natural universe around us has a supernatural creator evokes far too many issues about rules and authority that we'd rather not deal with.  We want our playtime to keep going all night, so we believe whatever we have to believe to keep the fun going.

And so we deny the truth all around us.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26161175 -

When we Read Between The Lines we might wonder why the need for esotericism. Obviously there must be deeper levels of meaning that are not explicitly aired. With this in mind the Green Novices, such as you and me, might grant that the true nature of reality and our place in it, is not as black & white as it appears, or as we would like it to appear to suit our arguments.

For example the net result of your behavior is the "Saving of souls from the everlasting fires of hell" but the gardener knows that good compost is a product of the 'greens' and the 'browns' intermixed. So there we are, immersed in shit up to our ears if you get my drift.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #26161181 -

Adults really don't want to learn baby talk, but babies have feelings and know stuff too.
This might relate to the problem when baby talk is forced upon society rather than hurt someone's feelings. This is a trap.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26161212 -

Quote:
And so we deny the truth all around us.


From the link:

"St. Augustine states, drawing upon writings of Seneca and Varro that we no longer possess:
[W]ith respect to these sacred rites of the civil theology, Seneca preferred, as the best course to be followed by a wise man, to feign respect for them in act, but to have no real regard for them at heart.... [Seneca] worshipped what he censured, did what he condemned, adored what he reproached, because, forsooth, philosophy had taught him something great–namely, not to be superstitious in the world, but, on account of the laws of cities and customs of men, to be an actor, not on the stage, but in the temples.
– Augustine, City of God, 203 (6.10)"  Underlining mine.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26161758 -

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26161942 -

Quote:
saved7 said::  .. the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves.


This not support for inborn awareness it's an appeal to consider the natural world similar to  the creative works of men. It depend on not innate inborn awareness, it depends on discrimination gained from experience. You might want to edit that out it as it supports the notion that it is not inborn awareness, but experience that leads to thinking that the natural world has a creator.

Cheers!

Edited by falcon (08/31/19 10:58 AM)

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: falcon]
    #26161979 -

good point.
the pretzel proposition of creator and artwork [as an implication of god and nature] does not map naturally onto the universe which comes of itself, and inborn awareness without projecting socially conditioned propositions onto the whole thing.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26162222 -

saved7 said:
We all have an inborn awareness that nature had a creator.  Nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature.  This truth is literally staring us in the face, every day, all day.

This innate understanding must be trained out of us by society (school/mass media) until we've assumed the socially acceptable and "educated" (though entirely irrational) position that nature created itself....  that nature created the very natural laws by which it is governed.

Like the Copernican Principle, this materialistic 'nature-created-nature' position is supported by no evidence at all, yet is taken for granted as high scientific wisdom of our age.

But deep down we know it's not true.  We know that nature did not create itself... we know the natural laws did not compose themselves by natural means.... the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves. 

In an attempt to escape the truth, we pretend there is no evidence of the supernatural yet the evidence, the creation itself, is screaming out to us every second of our lives, and we run away from it... or we pretend it's just all too mysterious and nobody can know for sure.  "Well science is still working on it........."

In my opinion, it just comes down to severe levels of denial.  Like a child not wanting to admit that playtime is over and that it's time for bed... admitting to ourselves that all of this natural universe around us has a supernatural creator evokes far too many issues about rules and authority that we'd rather not deal with.  We want our playtime to keep going all night, so we believe whatever we have to believe to keep the fun going.

And so we deny the truth all around us.


"nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature"

Where's the evidence, please back up this assertion?

"We know that nature did not create itself"

Again, please provide the evidence for this claim.

All you're doing is making a bunch of claims with zero evidence. You're also making a fallacious argument that people don't believe in your claims because they don't want to deal with some authority figure. I'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: falcon]
    #26162542 -

falcon said:
Quote:
saved7 said::  .. the same way we know that musical and literary masterpieces did not compose themselves.


This not support for inborn awareness it's an appeal to consider the natural world similar to  the creative works of men. It depend on not innate inborn awareness, it depends on discrimination gained from experience. You might want to edit that out it as it supports the notion that it is not inborn awareness, but experience that leads to thinking that the natural world has a creator.

Cheers!


It's innate because with age, we all recognize that works of magnificent complexity and organization did not assemble themselves.
(Does anyone in the world believe that an 800 page novel spontaneously sprung out of the earth?)  There had to be a mind behind it.  A mind that far surpasses the material of the work itself. A symbol-maker beyond the realm of symbols.  And there could hardly be a greater work than that of the creation of the physical universe.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26162599 -

Why could there not be a greater work than the creation of the physical universe? If there is a mind that created the physical universe that can only be inferred, you can not khnow that is all that it has done. As the statement there is no greater creation than the physical creattion can not be known to be true it is not an honest statement and misleading, anything it supports includinng that there must be a mind responsible for creating the natural world can not be known to be true.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: falcon]
    #26162724 -

we are that mind already
continuously creating the universe we see into intelligent meanings and expectations


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman] * 1
    #26162742 -

qman said:
"nature was created by something supernatural outside of and above nature"

Where's the evidence, please back up this assertion?


Already presented.  The creation itself (the material world) is the evidence of a non-material (i.e. supernatural) organizer.


qman said:
"We know that nature did not create itself"

Again, please provide the evidence for this claim.



I submit that it's a self-evident truth.  We understand that laws do not compose themselves.  There is always an organizing lawmaker superior to the substance of the law themselves. A composer always lies behind the composition - a composer superior or outside of the framework of what has been composed.

However we willingly blind ourselves to that truth when it comes to the natural world and the laws of nature, and instead we pretend that those laws composed themselves.  And then we collectively tell ourselves that we are wise people for believing something so illogical.

Instead of following our inborn reason to the truth of our creator, we cut ourselves off from the truth with an acquired philosophical commitment to materialism.


--------------------
"Who do you say that I am?"
- Jesus quoted in the Gospel of Matthew

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7] * 1
    #26162832 -

Sorry, but nature or the physical world is NOT evidence for anything supernatural. You need to provide evidence for the supernatural and you haven't done that at all. 

"We understand that laws do not compose themselves"

Yet, you can't demonstrated that the universe has been "organized" by anything other than natural causes.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: qman]
    #26162978 -

laws are just our handle on what happens, we are still figuring it out.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: redgreenvines]
    #26163032 -


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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26163090 -

You're just projecting what you want to be true. Nature has always been and it always will be, it is beyond time and conception. What you call a "creator" is only a conceptualisation of nature. We create nature and nature creates us. God, nature, Buddha, mind, atman, the universe, the infinite, Truth, Love, reality, all of those words refer to the same thing.

Who do you think creates the creator?

Who is the one that is aware? Who is the one that perceives the truth?

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: dk-1] * 2
    #26163122 -

dk-1 said:
You're just projecting what you want to be true.



You're doing the same thing though.


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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: Big Worm] * 1
    #26163183 -

No I'm not, the reality beyond words and concepts is a complete unity, you only need to stop and look around to see it.

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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: saved7]
    #26163276 -

Nature rising from the cosmos too scary ey.

Equating artworks and clocks n stuff to planetary development as such is not analogous.

In my opinion your are projecting your own denial of an organic coming to, in an attempt to embellish tradition.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Deep down we all know that nature had a supernatural creator [Re: sudly]
    #26163280 -

I actually understand what OP is trying to assert, but this thread has become a veritable cluster fuck of misdirects now.

To suppose a creator is to beg the question: who created the creator? If you can't answer that and have to default to infinite regression (Creator A was created by B, whom was done by C...", you have nothing. You have raw determinism under the guise of mysticism. You have no plumb line for reason outside of the given set of variables.

If you keep pushing back to infinite regress you indirectly admit you already support the idea that everything just exists, has always existed, and will continue to exist without beginning or end. This is not an easy position for most to wrap their heads around as it's the exact opposite of what natural (materialist determinist) science claims.

Most philosophies are half-baked, premature delusions mired in determinism (something was created, had a start point, Big Bang, and has moved us to where we are now, etc.)

Now if you want to argue from the point of consciousness vs the external universe, I can jump in and support.

Hence my initial question nobody seems to care for: What came first, the chicken or the egg?


--------------------

"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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