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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25919274 -

As you will recall, I started this by posting a 9/11 story from RT.  If I'm not mistaken, you conceded that this was fake news and then took your turn using the Venezuela piece from Last Week Tonight.  That means it's still your turn.

If you didn't concede, I will be happy to argue the 9/11 story as fake news if you dispute that it is.  Otherwise, it's your turn to provide a fake news story from LWT.

Also, to address one thing you said:

Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Enlil said:
We have to set the threshold of proof that we're willing to accept.  If you want to set the burden at "more likely than not," that's one thing.  If you want to set it at "mere scintilla of proof," that's another.  I don't care where the threshold is, as long as we're held to the same standard.



Let's go with 'more likely than not'.



Is it more likely than not that sanctions targeting Venezuela's oil and banking industries, which were implemented specifically to force Maduro out, were our fault?




This is a misapplication of the "more likely than not" standard.  The question isn't whether sanctions were our fault.  The question is whether the story is more likely than not "fake news."

In any case, this dispute is over vis a vis that piece.  If you want to present another LWT segment that is fake news, I'm more than happy to do this again.  In the alternative, if you wish me to prove my chosen RT story to be fake news, I'll do that.  It's up to you.

Also, if you're concerned about who has the last word, we can fix that problem by simply making a rule that the petitioner gets a final argument wherein he is not allowed to bring in any new evidence not previously introduced in the thread.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25919295 -

Here’s RT saying Fukushima is worse than Chernobyl



This is laughable. The amount of radiation released during Chernobyl was far greater as well as the dozens of deaths from acute radiation poisoning. Nobody died from radiation poisoning at Fukushima.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25919307 -

The next lie from John Oliver comes around 3:40 - 4:00 of the video:

"Tonight, we thought we'd check in on what's been happening there, to try and understand how Venezuela got into this mess, and how, despite making it even worse, their current President, Nicolas Maduro, seen here absolutely going to town on a 'nana, is almost certainly going to win despite having the support of only around a fifth of the population."

The lie here is that Nicolas Maduro only had "the support of only around a fifth of the population".  If you look at the article John Oliver posted a piece from, it actually says:  "Maduro nevertheless still has a core support of about one fifth of Venezuelans".  Core support doesn't include voters who support Maduro, but who aren't terribly passionate about him.

Maduro received 67.8% of the vote, with a 46.1% voter turnout.  Saying he had the support of only around a fifth of the population was a lie.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25919318 -

Enlil said:
As you will recall, I started this by posting a 9/11 story from RT.  If I'm not mistaken, you conceded that this was fake news and then took your turn using the Venezuela piece from Last Week Tonight.  That means it's still your turn.



Yes, I conceded that and said rt.com has gotten a lot better since they became mainstream.  I want to limit this to any RT story in the last five years (unless you're willing to concede they've been very good during the last 5 years).  I'll do the same for your source.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: koods]
    #25919338 -

koods said:
Here’s RT saying Fukushima is worse than Chernobyl



This is laughable. The amount of radiation released during Chernobyl was far greater as well as the dozens of deaths from acute radiation poisoning. Nobody died from radiation poisoning at Fukushima.



We've discussed this before, and this article says you're wrong:  https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/04/27/move-over-chernobyl-fukushima-is-now-officially-the-worst-nuclear-power-disaster-in-history/

PS - your video is well over 5 years old.  Whether true or not, are you willing to concede that RT has been accurate during the last 5 years?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #25919340 -

Enlil said:
Also, if you're concerned about who has the last word, we can fix that problem by simply making a rule that the petitioner gets a final argument wherein he is not allowed to bring in any new evidence not previously introduced in the thread.



I think that's fair.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25919364 -

Moving forward, I'll limit to the last 5 years, sure.  You're still stuck with the 9/11 fake news story already conceded, though.  It's still your turn, and if/when you find and prove a fake news story from LWT (from any time.  We won't apply the 5 year limit to your first one, because mine was older), I'll do the same for RT.  Fair?


As to the Venezuela episode, it's already been found not to be a fake news story.  You'll have to find a different story.  We both have to respect the findings of our mutually agreed-upon judge.  You had a full and fair opportunity to argue as many false statements as you wanted from that piece, and you chose to argue only one.

I promise you that I have lost many, many times in front of judges that I thought were 100% wrong, and I've taken my lumps professionally.  If/when Balls rules against me, I'll leave it at that without grumbling.  I'm only asking you to do the same in this case.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25919386 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
koods said:
Here’s RT saying Fukushima is worse than Chernobyl



This is laughable. The amount of radiation released during Chernobyl was far greater as well as the dozens of deaths from acute radiation poisoning. Nobody died from radiation poisoning at Fukushima.



We've discussed this before, and this article says you're wrong:  https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/04/27/move-over-chernobyl-fukushima-is-now-officially-the-worst-nuclear-power-disaster-in-history/

PS - your video is well over 5 years old.  Whether true or not, are you willing to concede that RT has been accurate during the last 5 years?



Yes. You lost that debate.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25919391 -

I want to make it abundantly clear that my ruling in this case should not be construed as an endorsement of the veracity of The Last Week Tonight piece in question. In fact I reserve all judgment as to the actual truth value of the segment.  I found only that the evidence in the case did not rise to the standard necessary to deem it "fake news" per the definition agreed upon before these proceedings.

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25919422 -

Enlil said:
Moving forward, I'll limit to the last 5 years, sure.  You're still stuck with the 9/11 fake news story already conceded, though.  It's still your turn, and if/when you find and prove a fake news story from LWT (from any time.  We won't apply the 5 year limit to your first one, because mine was older), I'll do the same for RT.  Fair?



Fine.  The point of this game for me is to show that RT has been a more reliable source for the last 5 years than mainstream news, if you want a point for something older, that's fine.

Enlil said:
As to the Venezuela episode, it's already been found not to be a fake news story.  You'll have to find a different story.  We both have to respect the findings of our mutually agreed-upon judge.  You had a full and fair opportunity to argue as many false statements as you wanted from that piece, and you chose to argue only one.



Only two sentences from that video have been ruled as true, NOT the entire video.  I chose to use only one argument to prove those two sentences false, and I'll accept the judge's decision on that, but the rest of that video is still full of lies, as I'm sure you're aware if you watched The Ecstatic's video.

If you want to make NEW a rule that we only get one argument per episode, that's fine, then I'll just list ALL the lies at once instead of just one at a time.  But I didn't want to make this discussion too busy.  If we did it that way, then Balls would only have to find one of those lies false for me to win a point.

Balls, your thoughts?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: koods]
    #25919427 -

koods said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
koods said:
Here’s RT saying Fukushima is worse than Chernobyl



This is laughable. The amount of radiation released during Chernobyl was far greater as well as the dozens of deaths from acute radiation poisoning. Nobody died from radiation poisoning at Fukushima.



We've discussed this before, and this article says you're wrong:  https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/04/27/move-over-chernobyl-fukushima-is-now-officially-the-worst-nuclear-power-disaster-in-history/

PS - your video is well over 5 years old.  Whether true or not, are you willing to concede that RT has been accurate during the last 5 years?



Yes. You lost that debate.



If I click the link, it shows I won.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25919446 -

The more evidence, the better

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25919479 -

I'm not re-debating that story. You claimed it was fake.  You had an opportunity to prove it was fake.  You failed to meet that burden under conditions we both agreed to. If you can't or won't accept that, I'm done.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25919531 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
koods said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
koods said:
Here’s RT saying Fukushima is worse than Chernobyl



This is laughable. The amount of radiation released during Chernobyl was far greater as well as the dozens of deaths from acute radiation poisoning. Nobody died from radiation poisoning at Fukushima.



We've discussed this before, and this article says you're wrong:  https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/04/27/move-over-chernobyl-fukushima-is-now-officially-the-worst-nuclear-power-disaster-in-history/

PS - your video is well over 5 years old.  Whether true or not, are you willing to concede that RT has been accurate during the last 5 years?



Yes. You lost that debate.



If I click the link, it shows I won.



And i thoroughlly debunked your link. I think your major problem is you rely on the fringe alternative news sources instead of reliable sources. :themoreyouknow:


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25919565 -

Enlil said:
I'm not re-debating that story. You claimed it was fake.  You had an opportunity to prove it was fake.  You failed to meet that burden under conditions we both agreed to. If you can't or won't accept that, I'm done.



And we won't redebate those two sentences.  I've conceded on those and won't bring them back up.  Now I'm moving on to the next of a great many lies from that video.  There are LOTS more, as you should know if you watched The Ecstatic's video.

We never made a rule that we only get to argue about one lie per video (if we did please post a link).  I simply agreed to limit my evidence on the two sentences in question to one point.

The questions for Balls is:

  1.  Can we only bring up one lie per story, or can we bring up all the lies contained in any given story?
  2.  If it's the latter, should we bring them all up at a time, or does it make more sense to look at one at a time?

I think we should review them one at a time or our posts would get WAY too long (as would each rebuttal), and no one would bother reading them.

But again, I'll do whatever you decide moving forward.  But I did NOT previously agree to just one lie per story.


With that said, I can certainly agree that once a lie is found in a story, we can rule that story fake and not use it for any other lies.


Balls?



PS - it's very clear Enlil knows there are plenty more lies in that video, or he wouldn't bother fighting this.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25919679 -

You are the one who chose which alleged lie(s) to argue and which ones not to.  You could have argued a dozen lies if you wanted to.  Now you want a second bite at the apple.  I'm not going to participate if you're able to keep relitigating the same story over and over.  It's that simple. 

It's like you are suing me in a car accident.  First, you go to trial and try to convince the jury that I was at fault because I was speeding.  You lost, and now you want a second trial to try to convince the jury that I was at fault because I ran a red light.  It's fundamentally unfair to me for you to get a second chance at it.  I'm sorry, but that's just the fact.  There is a good reason this wouldn't be allowed in a real trial.

Are you afraid that you can't find another story to attack?  Or are you just afraid that you won't find another that has already been attacked before by a random youtuber?  If it makes you feel any better, I would have easily proven the one-fifth estimation to be true.



--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25919780 -

Enlil said:
It's like you are suing me in a car accident.  First, you go to trial and try to convince the jury that I was at fault because I was speeding.  You lost, and now you want a second trial to try to convince the jury that I was at fault because I ran a red light.  It's fundamentally unfair to me for you to get a second chance at it.  I'm sorry, but that's just the fact.  There is a good reason this wouldn't be allowed in a real trial.



No, I told you we had a video with 45 minutes worth of alleged lies in it, and we simply started with the one that The Ecstatic brought up and ONLY focused on that one point.  You won, and so I'm moving on to a different point.  NO ONE agreed we could only bring up one point per video, or else I would have brought up the best one I could find first.  And as I stated, I think it would be ridiculously cumbersome to discuss them all at once, which is why I'm asking Balls how he wants to proceed.

If I find John Oliver says the crisis isn't the US's fault somewhere else in the video, I won't bring that point up again.  I'm moving on to a DIFFERENT point.

Enlil said:
Are you afraid that you can't find another story to attack?  Or are you just afraid that you won't find another that has already been attacked before by a random youtuber?



I've got another from another video in the que, and I'll bring that out, but first we need to establish the rules so you don't just make them up as we go.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25919805 -

I'm not sure there should be a limit to the number of points brought up, just the caveat that making it too convoluted will make it harder for the judge to make heads or tails of the post.  Given the 2 round limit for arguments, i say go oint by point until it becomes unworkable.  If anything, a demonstrable pattern always tends to bolster an argument.  As a rule of thumb, i would probably limit myself to 3-5 points per post. 
I did rather enjoy this exercise, even though i ruled against my own common sense.  I think that going forward it would be a good idea to codify the rules and procedures for these debates.  We can always amend them after each round until we find the sweet spot.  Maybe we can have an appeals process of some kind

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25919814 -

I enjoyed the debate. What was the verdict? Mistrial?

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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #25919868 -

Not guilty.
Now the question is whether to figure out how to appeal the verdict or move on but more clearly lay out the rules for next time.

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