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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
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Loc: ATL
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1. They have been afraid of Saddam and his regime. The would have been quickly crushed by his military fighting on their own. Some of them did join our forces and fight against him, but many feared for their own lives and the lives of their family.
2. Not everyone is happy Saddam is gone. I never claimed they were all happy nor did anyone else. It only takes one idiot to go on a suicide mission so I hardly see a few suicide bombers as an indication of how an enire group of people feel.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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I agree, the news we get in America is incredibly biased. If any of these ********** had ever actually heard coverage from sources besides CNN and MSNBC and FOX, they wouldn't be running their mouths right now.
Edited by Fiend (04/09/03 10:19 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1444738 - 04/09/03 09:36 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'll agree with Z@Z, not that Im up to the challenge as you stated. But bring on some more Gilligan Im sure I can keep up with you.
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1444753 - 04/09/03 09:39 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, well, a bit of intelligent discussion. I underestimated you, Z.
But I think you got the facts wrong. I think that they're not rising up against Saddam because they learned from the first gulf war.
The Sheite Muslims (that make a large percentage of Iraqis) rose up against Saddam with the promise of US backing. Considering they all got massacred as the US forces sat on the border and watched, I don't really blame them for not rising against Saddam again.
In fact, far from being 'scared' to rise up against Saddam, they just don't want to. For them, America are traitors and enemies that have led them to mass slaughter at least once before. They just don't want to support American. In their minds, they are choosing the lesser of two evils, they are choosing Saddam. (of course, I know that America is the lesser of the two evils, I'm just saying what they are thinking).
And besides, what makes the Iraqi military so immune to turning against Saddam? They're all Iraqi civilians too, you know. They live with, are friends with, and are related to all the other non-military Iraqi civilians - just like US soldiers and US civilians. Why don't they turn against Saddam? Surely they want a taste of Uncle Sam's special flavor of freedom too, don't they?
As far as the suicide bombers go, you know they're not just Iraqis? They're flocking in from all over the Arab world. There's an army of suicide bombers in Iraq, hardly "a few minority lunatics". Considering they're coming from all over the middle east, it doens't bode well for futre Iraqi stability, does it? So much for "freedom".
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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The Sheite Muslims (that make a large percentage of Iraqis) rose up against Saddam with the promise of US backing. Considering they all got massacred as the US forces sat on the border and watched, I don't really blame them for not rising against Saddam again.
That was an unfortunate incident. We should have never backed out. I think we caved to UN pressure (not sure too lazy too look it up so feel free to prove me wrong) to back out.
In fact, far from being 'scared' to rise up against Saddam, they just don't want to. For them, America are traitors and enemies that have led them to mass slaughter at least once before. They just don't want to support American. In their minds, they are choosing the lesser of two evils, they are choosing Saddam.
I don't think that is it at all. Saddam has used brutal tactics to keep his people in submission. I really think they are afraid not just for themselves, but for their families. I go to school with someone who's father is from Iraq and his father was all for the war. He said that people in Iraq are absolutely terrified of Saddam.
As far as the suicide bombers go, you know they're not just Iraqis? They're flocking in from all over the Arab world. There's an army of suicide bombers in Iraq, hardly "a few minority lunatics".
I am aware that they are not all Iraqi. Most of the bombers are doing it partially because they are brainwashed into believing that 17 (19 maybe?) virgins and other such rewards will be awaiting them in the afterlife. They do it to become martyrs. And yes they are minority lunatics.
Considering they're coming from all over the middle east, it doens't bode well for futre Iraqi stability, does it? So much for "freedom".
Freedom is not an easy thing to achieve nor is it easy to maintain. I have no doubt it will be years before stability is reached, but in the end if they are willing to fight for it they will have it. If they aren't willing to fight for it then no it will not last.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Since I don't know where you copied and pasted this from Im just gonna assume that you wrote it. Quote:
As far as the suicide bombers go, you know they're not just Iraqis? They're flocking in from all over the Arab world. There's an army of suicide bombers in Iraq, hardly "a few minority lunatics". Considering they're coming from all over the middle east, it doens't bode well for futre Iraqi stability, does it? So much for "freedom
Anyways, my question to you Gilligan is "Does the fact that you are a target of suicide bombers along with anyone else bother you?"
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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wombat writes:
The Sheite Muslims (that make a large percentage of Iraqis) rose up against Saddam with the promise of US backing. Considering they all got massacred as the US forces sat on the border and watched, I don't really blame them for not rising against Saddam again.
It wasn't merely the US forces that sat and watched, it was the entire world. The US was part of the UN coalition that had signed the conditional ceasefire agreement -- the same agreement whose conditions Iraq has refused to fulfill for a dozen years. By the terms of that agreement, the UN coalition forces withdrew from Iraq, and could not re-enter in order just to interfere in a mere "in-house" dispute.
Why don't you check some international law, or even the UN Charter? You will see that providing assistance to insurgents trying to overthrow an internationally recognized government is a no-no. Clearly Hussein's regime was a recognized one in the eyes of the UN, or the cease-fire agreement would have been meaningless.
I don't say I personally agree with this absurd convention, I merely point out that it exists.
And besides, what makes the Iraqi military so immune to turning against Saddam? They're all Iraqi civilians too, you know. They live with, are friends with, and are related to all the other non-military Iraqi civilians - just like US soldiers and US civilians. Why don't they turn against Saddam?
Because those who turned against Saddam in the past had their entire families imprisoned, tortured, and killed. Hell, those who even tried to desert, much less commit treason, were treated similarly.
As far as the suicide bombers go, you know they're not just Iraqis? They're flocking in from all over the Arab world.
ROFL!!!!
You are saying that the existence of suicide bombers proves that the Iraqis don't want to be liberated, but then you tell us that the suicide bombers aren't even Iraqis.
Some logic you got going there, sport.
pinky
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1444934 - 04/09/03 10:30 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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You are saying that the existence of suicide bombers proves that the Iraqis don't want to be liberated, but then you tell us that the suicide bombers aren't even Iraqis I did not do either. First, of course Iraqis want to be liberated. I've never claimed that Iraqis actually liked Saddam Hussein. What I am saying is that Americas aim in Iraq is not to liberate their people. And the Iraqi people do not want to be liberated by America. There's a huge difference! Freeing the Iraqi people is a mere side effect. If it was the American aim, then they would have "liberated" Tibet and Zimbabwe years ago. Second, I sail not "all" of them are iraqis. That's very different to saying "none" of them are. Don't get me wrong, I think the Iraqi people DO want to be rid of Saddam Hussein. I think they're very happy to see his regime finally beginning to crumble. I DO NOT think they wanted it done by getting the shit bombed out of them by some country on the other side of the bloody world that has nothing to do with Iraq!!! Sure, there are some happy scenes in Iraq now Saddam has apparantly dissapeared. I will not argue with that. But I DO maintain that these scenes are a minority and they're grossly exagerated by pro-war media networks such as FOX. What's really happening in Bagdhad right now is civilian looting and destruction. Time will show you the peace the America has bought to Iraq. The fact that American oil companies (note: NOT Iraqi oil companies) have been charged with the mission of putting out the oil fires and restructuring the Iraqi oil industry just says it all. If only there was oil in Zimbabwe and Tibet. Then they may get liberated as well.
Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/09/03 10:31 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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wombat writes:
First, of course Iraqis want to be liberated. I've never claimed that Iraqis actually liked Saddam Hussein.
Ah. I guess I was confused by this line from your opening post in this thread:
"You guys are absolutely screwed in the head if you think a few pockets of pro-US iraqis are represntative of the Iraqi civilian population! They can't even get the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam! In fact, they're blowing themselves up in his name!"
This would seem to indicate that they don't want to be liberated, since they can't even be bothered "to rise up against Saddam."
It would also seem to indicate that they do in fact like Hussein -- more than like him; they actually revere him, since "in fact, they're blowing themselves up in his name!"
Of course, now that we know many of the suicide bombers aren't even in fact Iraqis, we have no way of knowing that it is really Iraqis "blowing themselves up in his name". They might all have been foreign nationals. Guess we'll have to wait for the DNA tests to come back from the lab to know for sure, huh?
And the Iraqi people do not want to be liberated by America.
Who would they prefer to liberate them? Libya? Egypt? The Sudan? France?
Don't get me wrong, I think the Iraqi people DO want to be rid of Saddam Hussein. I think they're very happy to see his regime finally beginning to crumble.
I'm confused. How does that square with your statement: "They can't even get the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam! In fact, they're blowing themselves up in his name!"
I DO NOT think they wanted it done by getting the shit bombed out of them by some country on the other side of the bloody world that has nothing to do with Iraq!!!
How was it to be done, then? And by whom? Note that they hardly "got the shit bombed out of them".
pinky
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1445161 - 04/09/03 11:21 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think we caved to UN pressure
Nah, Bush was determind for Saddam to stay in power. The last thing he wanted were the fundamentalist shi'ites gaining power.
Saddam has used brutal tactics to keep his people in submission
Actually the living standards of most Iraqi's vastly increased under Saddams early rule. He realised the best way of preventing rebellion was treating his people well. Education, health etc all vastly improved.
Most of the bombers are doing it partially because they are brainwashed into believing that 17 (19 maybe?)
No, there's very few, if any, who believe that. That's just western propaganda. Most of them doing after seeing their loves ones tortured and slaughtered.
I have no doubt it will be years before stability is reached
When another merciless US installed puppet thug dictator can carry on torturing the people for as long as he obeys his masters in Washington.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1445169 - 04/09/03 11:23 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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How was it to be done, then? And by whom?
Bit of a specious argument. If Bush and Reagan hadn't armed Saddam to the teeth the Iraqi people could have overthrown him 20 years ago. As they have overthrown many dictators in the past.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Xlea321]
#1445176 - 04/09/03 11:24 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
As they have overthrown many dictators in the past.
Really? Which dictators?
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1445219 - 04/09/03 11:35 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Pinky:
"Ah. I guess I was confused by this line from your opening post in this thread: blah blah"
Obviously, you were very confused by it. I can't see why though.
First: obviously, it's an unarguable fact that some Iraqis do, in fact revere Saddam.
Second: Not wanting to be free of Saddam, and not wanting to get bombed to buggary and back are two different things. I wish someone would liberate us of our gutless government, but I sure as shit do not want to get blown to pieces in the process. It's a rather predictable failing of the gung-ho American psyche that you seem unable to tell the difference.
I'll try and make it simple. Liberation does not equal getting bombed nightly. Not the same thing. One can happen without the other.
Okay, on to your next point.
"How was it to be done, then? And by whom?"
This is the biggest failing of the American psyche. Try and understand this, although I'm sure you'll struggle. Ready? IT'S NONE OF YOUR GODDAMN BUSINESS. Clear enough for you? Nobody actually want America to butt-in on their own problems. It's an unfortunate miracle you haven't learned that after 9/11. Quite the opposite: you're just asking for more. And when it happens you'll all be standing around, scratching your heads saying, "but why!?". (Note that I certainly do not support such terrorism).
Next, you say, Note that they hardly "got the shit bombed out of them"
Well, that's just pure ignorance on your behalf. It was the biggest bombing campaign since World War II.
I'm sure that the coming decades will show that America has made a serious blunder in Iraq. I don't particularly want to argue about it on this forum forever.
I'm sure time will prove me right - and if it doesn't then "Yippee - happy days for everyone." I'd gladly be wrong, I just can't bring myself into that all-to-easy delusion.
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mycophat
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Ok heres my 2 cents....oO_wombat_Oo is right MOST of the media we all watch in the U.S. IS propaganda. If anyone has been watching cspan late night (as I have) you would be able to see SOME footage from various countrys Lebenon (sp?) the U.K. Iran...ETC. And for the most part they are ALL pissed at us (cant say as I blame them as most of this is NONE of our business) and the news over there really IS different (not to say that it is anybetter after all they ALSO use there fair share of propaganda) And secondly I hear alot of you spouting the word "Freedom" around like any of you actually know what true freedom is.The United States is NOT a free country its become a REPUBLIC (shit you dont even have the freedom to choose wether or when you die because even suicide is like almost everything else illegal.) We ran our ass's all the way from the U.K. or what ever you want to call it in the name of "Freedom" so what is the first thing we do when we come to our newly discoverd country?.......we rob...rape....and murder the very people who were amoung the first to greet us into THEIR country. Then we build "our United States" on the backs of slaves both black and asian. And when we Finally decide to "grow up a little and start acting like humans" we decide to play god for the rest of the planet and make everyone else's decisions for them. We fight wars and kill people all over the planet (even without bieng asked...arent we nice) all in the name of "Freedom" and meanwhile back here at "home" we take away more and more of our own citizens freedoms to apeize the wims of a bunch of brainwashed sheep and old farts who still wish (and some even truly believe) that life is some kind of Norman Rockwell painting or leave it to beaver. Well its not life is hard and painfull and full of hazards....suck it up and drive on.
Face it "Freedom" true Freedom is once again only memory and a dream. And yet there are almost no U.S. Military or civilians willing to fight or even Vote to get back the Freedoms that have been stolen from us. So I say rather than minding everyone else's business how about we try to "Free The United States " and ITS people's before we begin to worry about the freedoms of strangers.
Sorry about my rant I know I will probably get flamed for my opinion.....but at one time I had a right to it. And I honestly thought it needed to be said not so much for anyone elses benefit as so as to get it out of my system.
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: mycophat]
#1445246 - 04/09/03 11:41 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Mycophat:- hear! hear! Two thumbs up. These people (the US, UK and AUS) are just as brainwashed as any others on the planet.
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Xlea321]
#1445277 - 04/09/03 11:47 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex123 writes:
Bit of a specious argument. If Bush and Reagan hadn't armed Saddam to the teeth the Iraqi people could have overthrown him 20 years ago.
Ah, yes. The standard Alex123 "time machine" solution.
And of course neither Bush nor Reagan "armed Saddam to the teeth". Virtually all of Hussein's armament is Soviet. Certainly all of it which was required to keep his population cowed was. See: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/17/123424.shtml
pinky
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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And secondly I hear alot of you spouting the word "Freedom" around like any of you actually know what true freedom is.The United States is NOT a free country its become a REPUBLIC It's always been a republic. It is less of a republic now than when it was founded. VVVVVVVVVVsee quoteVVVVVVVVVVVVV
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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mycophat
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1445306 - 04/09/03 11:54 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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And how exactly do you think its less of a Republic now than it was before?
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Evolving
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1445317 - 04/09/03 11:56 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
And of course neither Bush nor Reagan "armed Saddam to the teeth". Virtually all of Hussein's armament is Soviet. Certainly all of it which was required to keep his population cowed was. See: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/17/123424.shtml
pinky
Ignore Alex, he exhibits gross ignorance of weapons systems, military strategy and tactics, English comprehension and logic. Oh, he'll change the subject and pretend he's presenting a valid argument (he loves those straw men).
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Evolving]
#1445346 - 04/10/03 12:03 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Pinky, are you going to retort my last lengthy reply to you or what?
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