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oO_wombat_Oo
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US Propoganda
#1444545 - 04/09/03 08:34 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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See what the rest of us see: Click here You guys are absolutely screwed in the head if you think a few pockets of pro-US iraqis are represntative of the Iraqi civilian population! They can't even get the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam! In fact, they're blowing themselves up in his name! Journalists can take a few happy snaps of anything to provide effective propoganda. They showed an expose on Aus TV recently about how US journalists are filming Kuwaities celebrating the US invasion of Iraq and claiming that they're actually from Iraq. Geez, you should come over here and read a paper or watch the news. Your coverage is totally biased and full of propoganda. An American friend of mine recently visited and she insisted that she just "could not believe" it was even the same war! The difference is sooo great in Australian, UK and European media coverage than it is in the US. For those gun waving, conservative yanks out there: The Iraqi people are not happy at getting the absolute shit bombed out of them. They are not a bunch of turban wearing, moustached fanatics happy to see their homes destroyed and their friends turned into piles of crimson mush in the name of Uncle Sam's "Freedom". And no, God is not on your side. Unless you worship a god that you think would honestly support the heavy bombing of a foreign country, resulting in mass civilian (not to mention military) death and destruction.
Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/09/03 09:43 PM)
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Anonymous
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No one likes being bombed.
Everyone likes their freedom.
Will you seriously claim that deposing Saddam Hussein is not bringing the Iraqi people a new level of a freedom, one theyve never experienced before?
Please do not dodge the question by saying that freeing the iraqis is not a valid reason to bomb the shit out of them. I already know this.
A simple yes or no will be sufficient.
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Murex
Reality Hacker

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How can you be that blind? You guys never give up. I suppose to save face you have to stick to your ways I guess.
-------------------- What if everything around you Isn't quite as it seems? What if all the world you think you know, Is an elaborate dream? And if you look at your reflection, Is it all you want it to be?
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
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You also need to realize that not everything is propoganda. These people are glad to see Saddam gone. I would not mind being bombed if the end result is my freedom.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: ]
#1444612 - 04/09/03 08:56 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, I do claim that. I know that's what your eggplant-IQed President and FOX network is trying to tell you though. I do however believe that most pro-war Americans have the best at heart and believe they are doing the right thing. I think they're just ignorant of the facts. Bagdhad was an intellectual and cultural center of the Arab world before the UN sanctions. Bagdhad University is one of the largest and most respected in the world. The average Iraqi was fairly well off. Despite their dictator leader, Iraq was a rich country, and their people were prosperous. Iraq was NOT a country of raggily clad starving militant religous fanatics that the US media likes to portray them as. UN Sanctions (that I happened to agree with) crippled Iraq. My point is this:- The Iraqi people once had a fair amount of freedom. Granted, not what we have here, but a HELL of a lot better than many other places in the world. Now, on to the current war. The US led state that will follow the war is NOT going to be popular in the middle east. This war has been one of the biggest US blunders of the century, and I think you will soon see I am right. The Arab world is not going to sit by idiley as the US occupy Iraq. There are going to be serious backlashings through-out the middleast for decades to come due to this. The innocent Iraqi people - who have already survived bombing in 1991, ten years of sanctions, and now even more bombing are going to get caught in the crossfire once again. For the next ten or twenty years. That is what the US have bought Iraq. Bombs, poverty and now more bombs. As an unrelated coincidence, the job of putting out all the oil fires in Iraq, and the job of rebuilding the Iraqi oil industry has gone to...who? US Oil companys? Yes, that's right. I know the average American person doesn't mean anything malicous, but seriously:- Open your eyes. Click the link at the top of my original post.
Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/09/03 09:28 PM)
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Murex
Reality Hacker

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That's just your skewed view based off of nothing factual.
-------------------- What if everything around you Isn't quite as it seems? What if all the world you think you know, Is an elaborate dream? And if you look at your reflection, Is it all you want it to be?
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PsiloKitten
Ganja Goddess

Registered: 02/12/99
Posts: 1,617
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Well said.
Until lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify the hunters. African Proverb
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Murex]
#1444625 - 04/09/03 09:02 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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What's not factual?
Is that the best retort you've got?
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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As an unrelated coincidence, the job of putting out all the oil fires in Iraq, and the job of rebuilding the Iraqi oil industry has gone to...who? US Oil companys? Yes, that's right.
Who do you propose should do it? We are going to pay them market price for their oil. We will no rob them blind.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Holy shit you're gonna get ripped apart.
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1444644 - 04/09/03 09:07 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Gee, I'd love to see someone take something I say and actually argue the facts. Instead of just saying "You're going to get ripped apart" (by who!? Nobody has even tried yet) or "You're just blind". Atleast make it a challenge for me, people! I'll start the ball rolling by demonstrating what I mean by "proper argument":- Quote:
You also need to realize that not everything is propoganda. These people are glad to see Saddam gone. I would not mind being bombed if the end result is my freedom.
Which people are you talking about? The men and women stapping dynamite to their bodies and blowing themselves up? The 13 year old kids screaming Arabic curses while firing AK-47s at coalition forces? Or the hundreds of Iraqi civilians that have been blown to pieces by US bombs? Don't beleive what you see on TV. Everyone speaking a foreign language with a black moustache is NOT an Iraqi. You're seeing Kuwaities, and your local propoganda station, FOX (don't worry, FOX is the same here), is just telling you they're Iraqi. If they were really Iraqi, don't you think there would have been a popular civilian uprising against Sadam by now? Not only is there none, they continue to die in his name.
Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/09/03 09:10 PM)
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
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Quote:
Don't beleive what you see on TV. Everyone speaking a foreign language with a black moustache is NOT an Iraqi. You're seeing Kuwaities, and your local propoganda station, FOX (don't worry, FOX is the same here), is just telling you they're Iraqi.
HAHAHAHAAHa I needed a good laugh.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Murex
Reality Hacker

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I didn't say it wasn't factual (the pics anyway), but it's totally one-sided and biased!
-------------------- What if everything around you Isn't quite as it seems? What if all the world you think you know, Is an elaborate dream? And if you look at your reflection, Is it all you want it to be?
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z@z.com
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Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Murex]
#1444656 - 04/09/03 09:11 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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In other words propaganda.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1444658 - 04/09/03 09:12 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Seriously, if this is the best you've got for me, I quit now. I'm obvioulsy scraping the barrel for a proper, intelligent and informed discussion here.
Not one person has provided a good counter argument. Immaculate atleast gave an honest question, but that's the best I've got out of you mob yet.
Bye.
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Anonymous
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1444664 - 04/09/03 09:13 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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This thread is absolutely wonderful. Ill be back in a min.
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
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I will respond with a good argument when I get a good one from you. All you have said is that you don't believe them. How am I to counter that?
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1444677 - 04/09/03 09:18 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
I will respond with a good argument when I get a good one from you. All you have said is that you don't believe them. How am I to counter that?
The answer to that z@z is just agree and pretend to be his friend. You see its like getting a knock at the door from Jahovas Witnesses.
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TheCaptain
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: ]
#1444679 - 04/09/03 09:18 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Will you seriously claim that deposing Saddam Hussein is not bringing the Iraqi people a new level of a freedom, one theyve never experienced before?
Im gonna jump in and say no. http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/5488914.htm
you can not forcbly democratize a country by comming along and bombiong them and installing a new govt.
-------------------- "I mean, it's real hard to be free when you are bought and sold in the marketplace. 'Course, don't ever tell anybody that they're not free 'cause then they're gonna get real busy killin' and maimin' to prove to you that they are."
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1444684 - 04/09/03 09:19 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Okay, z@z If you really know anything about what you're talking about, then answer me this. It's a complex issue, you should be able to write a bloody essay on it. But I'd be happy to get a paragraph judging on what you've given me so far. Atleast you're up for it, unlike Tacklberry and those other propoganda-inhaling monkeys. Q. If the Iraqi people are so glad to get rid of Saddam, then why:- i. Is there no popular civilain uprising after 20 days, despite the US predicting one in the first few days of conflict? ii. Do men and women continue to blow themselves up in suicide missions in Saddam's name? Easy, peasy, one would think. So give it to me...
Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/09/03 09:21 PM)
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z@z.com
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1. They have been afraid of Saddam and his regime. The would have been quickly crushed by his military fighting on their own. Some of them did join our forces and fight against him, but many feared for their own lives and the lives of their family.
2. Not everyone is happy Saddam is gone. I never claimed they were all happy nor did anyone else. It only takes one idiot to go on a suicide mission so I hardly see a few suicide bombers as an indication of how an enire group of people feel.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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I agree, the news we get in America is incredibly biased. If any of these ********** had ever actually heard coverage from sources besides CNN and MSNBC and FOX, they wouldn't be running their mouths right now.
Edited by Fiend (04/09/03 10:19 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1444738 - 04/09/03 09:36 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'll agree with Z@Z, not that Im up to the challenge as you stated. But bring on some more Gilligan Im sure I can keep up with you.
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1444753 - 04/09/03 09:39 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Well, well, a bit of intelligent discussion. I underestimated you, Z.
But I think you got the facts wrong. I think that they're not rising up against Saddam because they learned from the first gulf war.
The Sheite Muslims (that make a large percentage of Iraqis) rose up against Saddam with the promise of US backing. Considering they all got massacred as the US forces sat on the border and watched, I don't really blame them for not rising against Saddam again.
In fact, far from being 'scared' to rise up against Saddam, they just don't want to. For them, America are traitors and enemies that have led them to mass slaughter at least once before. They just don't want to support American. In their minds, they are choosing the lesser of two evils, they are choosing Saddam. (of course, I know that America is the lesser of the two evils, I'm just saying what they are thinking).
And besides, what makes the Iraqi military so immune to turning against Saddam? They're all Iraqi civilians too, you know. They live with, are friends with, and are related to all the other non-military Iraqi civilians - just like US soldiers and US civilians. Why don't they turn against Saddam? Surely they want a taste of Uncle Sam's special flavor of freedom too, don't they?
As far as the suicide bombers go, you know they're not just Iraqis? They're flocking in from all over the Arab world. There's an army of suicide bombers in Iraq, hardly "a few minority lunatics". Considering they're coming from all over the middle east, it doens't bode well for futre Iraqi stability, does it? So much for "freedom".
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
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The Sheite Muslims (that make a large percentage of Iraqis) rose up against Saddam with the promise of US backing. Considering they all got massacred as the US forces sat on the border and watched, I don't really blame them for not rising against Saddam again.
That was an unfortunate incident. We should have never backed out. I think we caved to UN pressure (not sure too lazy too look it up so feel free to prove me wrong) to back out.
In fact, far from being 'scared' to rise up against Saddam, they just don't want to. For them, America are traitors and enemies that have led them to mass slaughter at least once before. They just don't want to support American. In their minds, they are choosing the lesser of two evils, they are choosing Saddam.
I don't think that is it at all. Saddam has used brutal tactics to keep his people in submission. I really think they are afraid not just for themselves, but for their families. I go to school with someone who's father is from Iraq and his father was all for the war. He said that people in Iraq are absolutely terrified of Saddam.
As far as the suicide bombers go, you know they're not just Iraqis? They're flocking in from all over the Arab world. There's an army of suicide bombers in Iraq, hardly "a few minority lunatics".
I am aware that they are not all Iraqi. Most of the bombers are doing it partially because they are brainwashed into believing that 17 (19 maybe?) virgins and other such rewards will be awaiting them in the afterlife. They do it to become martyrs. And yes they are minority lunatics.
Considering they're coming from all over the middle east, it doens't bode well for futre Iraqi stability, does it? So much for "freedom".
Freedom is not an easy thing to achieve nor is it easy to maintain. I have no doubt it will be years before stability is reached, but in the end if they are willing to fight for it they will have it. If they aren't willing to fight for it then no it will not last.
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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Anonymous
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Since I don't know where you copied and pasted this from Im just gonna assume that you wrote it. Quote:
As far as the suicide bombers go, you know they're not just Iraqis? They're flocking in from all over the Arab world. There's an army of suicide bombers in Iraq, hardly "a few minority lunatics". Considering they're coming from all over the middle east, it doens't bode well for futre Iraqi stability, does it? So much for "freedom
Anyways, my question to you Gilligan is "Does the fact that you are a target of suicide bombers along with anyone else bother you?"
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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wombat writes:
The Sheite Muslims (that make a large percentage of Iraqis) rose up against Saddam with the promise of US backing. Considering they all got massacred as the US forces sat on the border and watched, I don't really blame them for not rising against Saddam again.
It wasn't merely the US forces that sat and watched, it was the entire world. The US was part of the UN coalition that had signed the conditional ceasefire agreement -- the same agreement whose conditions Iraq has refused to fulfill for a dozen years. By the terms of that agreement, the UN coalition forces withdrew from Iraq, and could not re-enter in order just to interfere in a mere "in-house" dispute.
Why don't you check some international law, or even the UN Charter? You will see that providing assistance to insurgents trying to overthrow an internationally recognized government is a no-no. Clearly Hussein's regime was a recognized one in the eyes of the UN, or the cease-fire agreement would have been meaningless.
I don't say I personally agree with this absurd convention, I merely point out that it exists.
And besides, what makes the Iraqi military so immune to turning against Saddam? They're all Iraqi civilians too, you know. They live with, are friends with, and are related to all the other non-military Iraqi civilians - just like US soldiers and US civilians. Why don't they turn against Saddam?
Because those who turned against Saddam in the past had their entire families imprisoned, tortured, and killed. Hell, those who even tried to desert, much less commit treason, were treated similarly.
As far as the suicide bombers go, you know they're not just Iraqis? They're flocking in from all over the Arab world.
ROFL!!!!
You are saying that the existence of suicide bombers proves that the Iraqis don't want to be liberated, but then you tell us that the suicide bombers aren't even Iraqis.
Some logic you got going there, sport.
pinky
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1444934 - 04/09/03 10:30 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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You are saying that the existence of suicide bombers proves that the Iraqis don't want to be liberated, but then you tell us that the suicide bombers aren't even Iraqis I did not do either. First, of course Iraqis want to be liberated. I've never claimed that Iraqis actually liked Saddam Hussein. What I am saying is that Americas aim in Iraq is not to liberate their people. And the Iraqi people do not want to be liberated by America. There's a huge difference! Freeing the Iraqi people is a mere side effect. If it was the American aim, then they would have "liberated" Tibet and Zimbabwe years ago. Second, I sail not "all" of them are iraqis. That's very different to saying "none" of them are. Don't get me wrong, I think the Iraqi people DO want to be rid of Saddam Hussein. I think they're very happy to see his regime finally beginning to crumble. I DO NOT think they wanted it done by getting the shit bombed out of them by some country on the other side of the bloody world that has nothing to do with Iraq!!! Sure, there are some happy scenes in Iraq now Saddam has apparantly dissapeared. I will not argue with that. But I DO maintain that these scenes are a minority and they're grossly exagerated by pro-war media networks such as FOX. What's really happening in Bagdhad right now is civilian looting and destruction. Time will show you the peace the America has bought to Iraq. The fact that American oil companies (note: NOT Iraqi oil companies) have been charged with the mission of putting out the oil fires and restructuring the Iraqi oil industry just says it all. If only there was oil in Zimbabwe and Tibet. Then they may get liberated as well.
Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/09/03 10:31 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son


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wombat writes:
First, of course Iraqis want to be liberated. I've never claimed that Iraqis actually liked Saddam Hussein.
Ah. I guess I was confused by this line from your opening post in this thread:
"You guys are absolutely screwed in the head if you think a few pockets of pro-US iraqis are represntative of the Iraqi civilian population! They can't even get the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam! In fact, they're blowing themselves up in his name!"
This would seem to indicate that they don't want to be liberated, since they can't even be bothered "to rise up against Saddam."
It would also seem to indicate that they do in fact like Hussein -- more than like him; they actually revere him, since "in fact, they're blowing themselves up in his name!"
Of course, now that we know many of the suicide bombers aren't even in fact Iraqis, we have no way of knowing that it is really Iraqis "blowing themselves up in his name". They might all have been foreign nationals. Guess we'll have to wait for the DNA tests to come back from the lab to know for sure, huh?
And the Iraqi people do not want to be liberated by America.
Who would they prefer to liberate them? Libya? Egypt? The Sudan? France?
Don't get me wrong, I think the Iraqi people DO want to be rid of Saddam Hussein. I think they're very happy to see his regime finally beginning to crumble.
I'm confused. How does that square with your statement: "They can't even get the Iraqis to rise up against Saddam! In fact, they're blowing themselves up in his name!"
I DO NOT think they wanted it done by getting the shit bombed out of them by some country on the other side of the bloody world that has nothing to do with Iraq!!!
How was it to be done, then? And by whom? Note that they hardly "got the shit bombed out of them".
pinky
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Xlea321
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1445161 - 04/09/03 11:21 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think we caved to UN pressure
Nah, Bush was determind for Saddam to stay in power. The last thing he wanted were the fundamentalist shi'ites gaining power.
Saddam has used brutal tactics to keep his people in submission
Actually the living standards of most Iraqi's vastly increased under Saddams early rule. He realised the best way of preventing rebellion was treating his people well. Education, health etc all vastly improved.
Most of the bombers are doing it partially because they are brainwashed into believing that 17 (19 maybe?)
No, there's very few, if any, who believe that. That's just western propaganda. Most of them doing after seeing their loves ones tortured and slaughtered.
I have no doubt it will be years before stability is reached
When another merciless US installed puppet thug dictator can carry on torturing the people for as long as he obeys his masters in Washington.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1445169 - 04/09/03 11:23 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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How was it to be done, then? And by whom?
Bit of a specious argument. If Bush and Reagan hadn't armed Saddam to the teeth the Iraqi people could have overthrown him 20 years ago. As they have overthrown many dictators in the past.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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z@z.com
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Xlea321]
#1445176 - 04/09/03 11:24 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
As they have overthrown many dictators in the past.
Really? Which dictators?
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1445219 - 04/09/03 11:35 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Pinky:
"Ah. I guess I was confused by this line from your opening post in this thread: blah blah"
Obviously, you were very confused by it. I can't see why though.
First: obviously, it's an unarguable fact that some Iraqis do, in fact revere Saddam.
Second: Not wanting to be free of Saddam, and not wanting to get bombed to buggary and back are two different things. I wish someone would liberate us of our gutless government, but I sure as shit do not want to get blown to pieces in the process. It's a rather predictable failing of the gung-ho American psyche that you seem unable to tell the difference.
I'll try and make it simple. Liberation does not equal getting bombed nightly. Not the same thing. One can happen without the other.
Okay, on to your next point.
"How was it to be done, then? And by whom?"
This is the biggest failing of the American psyche. Try and understand this, although I'm sure you'll struggle. Ready? IT'S NONE OF YOUR GODDAMN BUSINESS. Clear enough for you? Nobody actually want America to butt-in on their own problems. It's an unfortunate miracle you haven't learned that after 9/11. Quite the opposite: you're just asking for more. And when it happens you'll all be standing around, scratching your heads saying, "but why!?". (Note that I certainly do not support such terrorism).
Next, you say, Note that they hardly "got the shit bombed out of them"
Well, that's just pure ignorance on your behalf. It was the biggest bombing campaign since World War II.
I'm sure that the coming decades will show that America has made a serious blunder in Iraq. I don't particularly want to argue about it on this forum forever.
I'm sure time will prove me right - and if it doesn't then "Yippee - happy days for everyone." I'd gladly be wrong, I just can't bring myself into that all-to-easy delusion.
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mycophat
member
Registered: 03/21/03
Posts: 133
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
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Ok heres my 2 cents....oO_wombat_Oo is right MOST of the media we all watch in the U.S. IS propaganda. If anyone has been watching cspan late night (as I have) you would be able to see SOME footage from various countrys Lebenon (sp?) the U.K. Iran...ETC. And for the most part they are ALL pissed at us (cant say as I blame them as most of this is NONE of our business) and the news over there really IS different (not to say that it is anybetter after all they ALSO use there fair share of propaganda) And secondly I hear alot of you spouting the word "Freedom" around like any of you actually know what true freedom is.The United States is NOT a free country its become a REPUBLIC (shit you dont even have the freedom to choose wether or when you die because even suicide is like almost everything else illegal.) We ran our ass's all the way from the U.K. or what ever you want to call it in the name of "Freedom" so what is the first thing we do when we come to our newly discoverd country?.......we rob...rape....and murder the very people who were amoung the first to greet us into THEIR country. Then we build "our United States" on the backs of slaves both black and asian. And when we Finally decide to "grow up a little and start acting like humans" we decide to play god for the rest of the planet and make everyone else's decisions for them. We fight wars and kill people all over the planet (even without bieng asked...arent we nice) all in the name of "Freedom" and meanwhile back here at "home" we take away more and more of our own citizens freedoms to apeize the wims of a bunch of brainwashed sheep and old farts who still wish (and some even truly believe) that life is some kind of Norman Rockwell painting or leave it to beaver. Well its not life is hard and painfull and full of hazards....suck it up and drive on.
Face it "Freedom" true Freedom is once again only memory and a dream. And yet there are almost no U.S. Military or civilians willing to fight or even Vote to get back the Freedoms that have been stolen from us. So I say rather than minding everyone else's business how about we try to "Free The United States " and ITS people's before we begin to worry about the freedoms of strangers.
Sorry about my rant I know I will probably get flamed for my opinion.....but at one time I had a right to it. And I honestly thought it needed to be said not so much for anyone elses benefit as so as to get it out of my system.
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: mycophat]
#1445246 - 04/09/03 11:41 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Mycophat:- hear! hear! Two thumbs up. These people (the US, UK and AUS) are just as brainwashed as any others on the planet.
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Xlea321]
#1445277 - 04/09/03 11:47 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex123 writes:
Bit of a specious argument. If Bush and Reagan hadn't armed Saddam to the teeth the Iraqi people could have overthrown him 20 years ago.
Ah, yes. The standard Alex123 "time machine" solution.
And of course neither Bush nor Reagan "armed Saddam to the teeth". Virtually all of Hussein's armament is Soviet. Certainly all of it which was required to keep his population cowed was. See: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/17/123424.shtml
pinky
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z@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
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And secondly I hear alot of you spouting the word "Freedom" around like any of you actually know what true freedom is.The United States is NOT a free country its become a REPUBLIC It's always been a republic. It is less of a republic now than when it was founded. VVVVVVVVVVsee quoteVVVVVVVVVVVVV
-------------------- "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson
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mycophat
member
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: z@z.com]
#1445306 - 04/09/03 11:54 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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And how exactly do you think its less of a Republic now than it was before?
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Evolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1445317 - 04/09/03 11:56 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
And of course neither Bush nor Reagan "armed Saddam to the teeth". Virtually all of Hussein's armament is Soviet. Certainly all of it which was required to keep his population cowed was. See: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/3/17/123424.shtml
pinky
Ignore Alex, he exhibits gross ignorance of weapons systems, military strategy and tactics, English comprehension and logic. Oh, he'll change the subject and pretend he's presenting a valid argument (he loves those straw men).
-------------------- To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Evolving]
#1445346 - 04/10/03 12:03 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Pinky, are you going to retort my last lengthy reply to you or what?
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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wombat writes:
First: obviously, it's an unarguable fact that some Iraqis do, in fact revere Saddam.
And it is an unarguable fact that most detest him. Virtually all the Shi'ites do, for example, and the Shi'ites comprise a majority of Iraq's population. Throw in the Kurds and the relatives of political prisoners who have vanished into his dungeons over the years, and there is a clear majority.
Yet you claim that the Iraqis rejoicing his overthrow are "a few pockets of pro-US iraqis" who are not "represntative of the Iraqi civilian population".
Second: Not wanting to be free of Saddam, and not wanting to get bombed to buggary and back are two different things.
And how would Egypt or the Sudan or France have deposed Hussein without bombs?
Further, they didn't get bombed "to buggary and back". Even if we accept the inflated figures of the famous oh-so-obviously-in-touch-with-reality Iraqi information minister at face value, the civilian casualties from bombs total less than a thousand.
It's a rather predictable failing of the gung-ho American psyche that you seem unable to tell the difference.
I'm not an American.
Liberation does not equal getting bombed nightly. Not the same thing. One can happen without the other.
Yes, I've heard that from countless people in this forum. No one has yet been able to explain how this is to happen, however. The only answer ever given is "somehow".
This is the biggest failing of the American psyche. Try and understand this, although I'm sure you'll... blah blah blah
You didn't answer the question. First you claim that the Iraqis want to be liberated -- they just don't want to be liberated by Americans, and they don't want the liberation to involve any bombing. I then asked whom they would prefer as their liberators, and by what method those liberators were to liberate them. I am still waiting for your answer.
Well, that's just pure ignorance on your behalf. It was the biggest bombing campaign since World War II.
Incorrect. That title goes to the war in Southeast Asia. And the civilian bomb casualties in this war are pretty low.
pinky
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1445436 - 04/10/03 12:29 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Virtually all the Shi'ites do, for example, and the Shi'ites comprise a majority of Iraq's population." The Shi'ite Muslims are a group that - with the promise of US backing - rose against Saddam's regime in '91. They were slaughtered as the US (and others) sat idiley on the border and watched. As a result, there is no way they are going to support the US now. America is now considered an enemy and traitor of the Shi'ite population. Yes, I agree, they do not want Saddam. But once again, you're seeing things in two dimensional FOX-network logic. They certainly don't want Americans in Iraq either. And how would Egypt or the Sudan or France have deposed Hussein without bombs? It's none of their business. They probably wouldn't have even tried. How is Sweden going to depose Castro (why would they want to?)? Or how is Malaysia going to depose Robert Mugabe? Do you get my point? There are much greater injustices in the world other than Saddam's regime. But most people realise it's none of their business. And that's the line even the US tote - until one of those regimes has loads of oil, that is. Unlike those other regimes, Iraq and her people were rich and prosperous until the UN sanctions. Admitedly, Saddam was far from an ideal leader, but he makes some other look like saints. I do, however, believe that Saddam is an evil man that should not be in charge of a rich country (or any country) like Iraq. I then asked whom they would prefer as their liberators, and by what method those liberators were to liberate them. I am still waiting for your answer. My answer is: I don't know. It's none of my business. They could have given the UN weapons inspectors a chance to start with. Do you seriously think the rest of the world is wrong? Do you seriously think that George W Bush has out-thought every other prominent world leader? Seriously? Because that's what your argument implies.
Edited by oO_wombat_Oo (04/10/03 12:35 AM)
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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wombat writes:
The Shi'ite Muslims are a group that - with the promise of US backing - rose against Saddam's regime in '91. They were slaughtered as the US (and others) sat idiley on the border and watched.
Since you apparently don't bother to read my posts, let me paste my comments from earlier in the thread:
It wasn't merely the US forces that sat and watched, it was the entire world. The US was part of the UN coalition that had signed the conditional ceasefire agreement -- the same agreement whose conditions Iraq has refused to fulfill for a dozen years. By the terms of that agreement, the UN coalition forces withdrew from Iraq, and could not re-enter in order just to interfere in a mere "in-house" dispute.
Why don't you check some international law, or even the UN Charter? You will see that providing assistance to insurgents trying to overthrow an internationally recognized government is a no-no. Clearly Hussein's regime was a recognized one in the eyes of the UN, or the cease-fire agreement would have been meaningless.
I don't say I personally agree with this absurd convention, I merely point out that it exists.
As a result, there is no way they are going to support the US now. America is now considered an enemy and traitor of the Shi'ite population.
Not to the Shi'ites we are seeing on the news.
Yes, I agree, they do not want Saddam. But once again, you're seeing things in two dimensional FOX-network logic. They certainly don't want Americans in Iraq either.
My, but you're a pompous little marsupial, aren't you? I have never seen a Fox news broadcast on TV, since I haven't had a TV for fifteen years. And whether you agree with my position or not, it is hardly two-dimensional. As for logic, I leave it to the readers to decide who is displaying the most logic in this thread.
It's none of their business. They probably wouldn't have even tried. How is Sweden going to depose Castro (why would they want to?)? Or how is Malaysia going to depose Robert Mugabe? Do you get my point?
There are much greater injustices in the world other than Saddam's regime. But most people realise it's none of their business.
Look, you said earlier in the thread -- "First, of course Iraqis want to be liberated."
Now you are saying that even though they want to be liberated, they are shit out of luck because:
a) They have been unable to liberate themselves without outside assistance
b) No outside nation should assist them, since "it's none of their business"
I do, however, believe that Saddam is an evil man that should not be in charge of a rich country (or any country) like Iraq.
The majority of Iraqis share your opinion. I guess that is why they are happy he is no longer in charge.
My answer is: I don't know.
No need to feel ashamed of that answer -- it has been the answer of everyone asked the same question.
It's none of my business.
If it's none of your business, why do you find it necessary to rant and rave? Chill, dude.
They could have given the UN weapons inspectors a chance to start with.
UN weapons inspectors are incapable of liberating Iraq.
Do you seriously think the rest of the world is wrong?
The number of adherents of a given proposition is irrelevant to its truth.
Do you seriously think that George W Bush has out-thought every other prominent world leader? Seriously? Because that's what your argument implies.
My argument implies no such thing. You claim that Iraqis are unhappy that Saddam has been deposed, that the "pockets" of delighted Iraqis we are seeing are "not representative" of the majority of Iraqis. You provide no proof of that assertion, you merely present it as axiomatic. I then pointed out (correctly) that the majority of Iraqis are in fact happy that Saddam is gone. What on earth has any of that got to do with the thinking processes of George Bush?
Saddam is gone. If I were an Iraqi, I wouldn't give a damn if he had been removed by the UK and the US and Australia acting in concert or France and Germany and Spain acting in concert.
pinky
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1445717 - 04/10/03 04:06 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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"Why don't you check some international law, or even the UN Charter? You will see that providing assistance to insurgents trying to overthrow an internationally recognized government is a no-no."
That argument is pathetic and stinks of typical US hypocrisy.
Dropping atmoic weapons on civilian cities is illegal too, but that didn't stop you in WWII. Not that any American will ever stand trial for that - one of the greatest war crimes in the history of humanity. Fucking hypocrits.
Even the US detaining of POW's (a status recently given to them by the US) in Cuba without trial is illegal. That doesn't stop you either.
But there's no use larking on those things, they'll never change. And nor will your attidude. You're too blinded by red, white and blue. Stars and stripes in front of your eyes.
The Iraqis are obviously pleased to see Saddam go, but the ends does not justify the means.
War is evil. Especially an unjustified one such as this. There can be no excuses for it. The US, UK and Australia acted as aggressors against a country that was obviously no threat to them. This was done for western economic interests. This will destabilise the Mid East for years to come. This resulted in the mass slaughter and maiming of innocent civilians.
If you can't see the facts for yourself, me stating them is not going to help.
But mark my words right now: This will come back to bite the US and her allies in the butt. That's a certainty.
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?



Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
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Quote:
That's a certainty.
Thanks for letting us know the future. psssttttt.... just between us... since you know what the future will bring how about PMing me with Saturday nights Powerball numbers?
-------------------- You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (04/10/03 04:09 AM)
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oO_wombat_Oo
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Yeah, haha.
If you can't figure that out for yourself your either George W Bush or an eggplant.
I said nothing enlightening or mind-blowing. The whole world already knows it, even US officials.
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1446155 - 04/10/03 10:13 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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And of course neither Bush nor Reagan "armed Saddam to the teeth".
Keep telling yourself that. It still won't make it true.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1446181 - 04/10/03 10:25 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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It wasn't merely the US forces that sat and watched, it was the entire world
The US had the vast majority of the armaments over there. If they had wanted to do it, it would have been done.
Why don't you check some international law, or even the UN Charter?
All they had to do was enforce the no-fly zones they'd already set up with UN approval. They refused to do this and allowed Saddam to send in the helicopter gunships.
And talking as tho the US is frightened of the UN in the light of recent events is a little bizarre to say the least.
The majority of Iraqis share your opinion
Trouble is they shared it 20 years ago when Bush and Reagan were so close to Saddam it was dubbed "the love affair".
UN weapons inspectors are incapable of liberating Iraq.
Could you explain again why the troops were sent into Iraq. It seems to change every week. First it was Saddams links to Bin-laden, the next week it was WMD, now it's "liberating the people" is it? When do you think young Bush got the fire of liberation in his heart? Was it while his dad was arming and propping up Saddam? Do you think he had big arguments saying "I want to free the downtrodden Iraqi people dad, stop arming him please.."
If I were an Iraqi, I wouldn't give a damn
Ask that question of the little Iraqi lad who lost his entire family and had his spinal cord severed by red hot shrapnel.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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wombat writes:
Dropping atmoic weapons on civilian cities is illegal too, but that didn't stop you in WWII.
Once again, I am not American. However, note that at the time the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, there were no laws regarding atomics one way or the other.
But there's no use larking on those things, they'll never change. And nor will your attidude.
What attitude? Look, all I pointed out was that the Iraqis celebrating Hussein's fall from power are real. They are not being paid to celebrate, they are genuinely happy that he is gone.
The Iraqis are obviously pleased to see Saddam go, but the ends does not justify the means.
Then what means would you have suggested be used?
The US, UK and Australia acted as aggressors against a country that was obviously no threat to them.
No they didn't. They attacked a regime, not a country.
This was done for western economic interests.
I have seen that claim posted here perhaps six hundred times. No one ever provides proof of the claim, since no proof can be provided. None of us can know which motives were foremost in the minds of Bush, Blair, and Howard. All one can do is guess, then try to outshout one's opponent who guesses differently.
This will destabilise the Mid East for years to come.
Perhaps. On the other hand it may make it more stable. At this stage in the game, you have no way of knowing.
This resulted in the mass slaughter and maiming of innocent civilians.
An inflated estimate of under a thousand civilian casualties from the notoriously reliable minister of information is hardly "mass slaughter".
If you can't see the facts for yourself, me stating them is not going to help.
The problem here is that you are not stating facts. You are asserting arbitrary opinions with no supporting evidence and mis-stating facts (such as your claim that this was the biggest bombing campaign since WWII).
Look, I have been discussing this with anti-war people here on this forum for months. I disagree with most of them, but most of them provide far higher caliber discussion than you have so far. Why not spend a bit of time reading some of their posts? You maight learn something.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Xlea321]
#1446192 - 04/10/03 10:31 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex123 writes:
Keep telling yourself that. It still won't make it true.
So sorry, Alex, but it is true, you know it is true, and anyone who clinks on that link and backchecks it for themselves also knows it's true.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 17 days
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Xlea321]
#1446218 - 04/10/03 10:44 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex123 writes:
If they had wanted to do it, it would have been done.
But if they had done so, you and others of your ilk would have been screaming in apoplexy that they had violated the cease-fire agreement and flouted international law.
All they had to do was enforce the no-fly zones they'd already set up with UN approval. They refused to do this and allowed Saddam to send in the helicopter gunships.
And the British fighters in the no-fly zone also ignored the helicopter gunships because....?
And talking as tho the US is frightened of the UN in the light of recent events is a little bizarre to say the least.
Again you exhibit your congenital inability to distinguish between past and present. At the time the Shi'ite rebellion was taking place, the ink was barely dry on the conditional ceasefire agreement. We are now talking about twelve freaking years later -- twelve years during which Iraq failed to fulfill even a single one of the terms of that conditional agreement; twelve years of sanctions and resolution after resolution filed against Iraq. The two situations are not even remotely similar.
And I find it curious that you are claiming the US should have immediately broken a ceasefire agreement and used military force against Hussein then in order to liberate Iraqis, but that to enter now is blasphemy. Can we say "hypocrisy"?
Trouble is they shared it 20 years ago when Bush and Reagan were so close to Saddam it was dubbed "the love affair".
Non sequitur. Once again your obssession with the past is used as an excuse for inaction during the present.
Ask that question of the little Iraqi lad who lost his entire family and had his spinal cord severed by red hot shrapnel.
Ask that question of the thousands of Iraqis who had their entire families imprisoned, raped, tortured, and killed. The Iraqis seen searching for some scrap of paper in a police torture house in the hopes they might finally know the fate of their relatives.
Ask that question of the parents of the children freed from Hussein's prisons.
pinky
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
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Re: US Propoganda [Re: Phred]
#1446241 - 04/10/03 10:53 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
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But if they had done so, you and others of your ilk would have been screaming in apoplexy that they had violated the cease-fire agreement and flouted international law.
No, enforcing the no-fly zone was already approved by the UN.
And the British fighters in the no-fly zone also ignored the helicopter gunships because....?
The american generals told the british to do so...?
We are now talking about twelve freaking years later
12 years is nothing. Israel has been flouting scores of UN resolutions for 30 years with full US backing.
And I find it curious that you are claiming the US should have immediately broken a ceasefire agreement and used military force against Hussein then in order to liberate Iraqis
If they had no intention of supporting an uprising why did Bush encourage the people to do so? Just propaganda?
Once again your obssession with the past is used as an excuse for inaction during the present.
Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.
Ask that question of the thousands of Iraqis
In other words the little kid with his spinal cord severed wouldn't give you the answer you'd like.
Well, Saddam was at his height of oppression back in the 80's when the love affair with Bush was strong. I think it's a little rich trying to take the credit for "Liberating" anyone when you've propped up the dictator for decades.
Remember, those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it.
-------------------- Don't worry, B. Caapi
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