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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25897723 -

Chili and Allende deserve more focus from the left's attention. He was absolutely elected in fair elections. Sukarno in Indonesia as well.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25897754 -

You never identified a false statement made by Last Week Tonight. I was following your lead. I don't think there's anything in there that is verifiably false.


If you can do that, I'll do it vis a vis the RT article. 


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #25897908 -

Enlil said:
You never identified a false statement made by Last Week Tonight. I was following your lead. I don't think there's anything in there that is verifiably false.


If you can do that, I'll do it vis a vis the RT article. 


John Oliver said "what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault.  Accusing America of creating Venezuala's crisis is about as fair as fair as accusing OJ Simpson of murdering Princess Diana."

Are you saying you don't believe US sanctions hurt Venezuela?

Edit:  If John Oliver said "what's happening in Venezuela is actually not completely our fault, then you'd have a valid point.  But to claim we're not at fault is a lie.


Would love to hear others chime in too.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (03/26/19 12:01 PM)

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25897945 -

So, that's the allegedly false statement you're identifying?  I just want to be clear before I go into it.  If so, do you have any source which substantiates your claim that the statement is false?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: Enlil]
    #25898025 -

Why are you dodging my questions?  Let's try this again, then I'll answer your question:

"Are you saying you don't believe US sanctions hurt Venezuela?"


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: qman]
    #25898074 -

qman said:
The Ecstatic said:
Nobody is pissing on straight white men.

What a better microcosm of identity politics than a white man decrying a victimhood complex of minorities, and then bestowing it upon himself.


You can deny the exclusion of white men and the default position as perpetrator all you want, but that doesn't change anything.

How about stopping with the identity politics and just focus on issues that affect US citizens?  I know, his base wants the cultural revenge/conflict to continue as they scream for "unity".


How do you feel about the fact that Bernie has not seemed to be bothered by this sort of thing?

Remember a news story here in Canada after one of his debates with Hillary
accusing him of trying to make the election about identity politics
because Hillary did not mention becoming the first female president in the debate
but Bernie was directly asked if he felt like he was obstructing history to oppose her
and replied with "a Sanders presidency would be pretty historic too"

am interested because Bernie seems to generally let the anti-white-old-man rhetoric roll of his back and focuses in on the issues
do you feel he should be campaigning against this rhetoric with public speeches about the merits and accomplishments of white men
or is it better for him to demonstrate that he is not a perpetrator of minority hatred by the veracity of his actions, directly demonstrating that not all white men can be fit into the category?

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25898095 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why are you dodging my questions?  Let's try this again, then I'll answer your question:

"Are you saying you don't believe US sanctions hurt Venezuela?"


have not really been following the Venezuela issue in recent months
am only really familiar with the protests a few years ago
Tantrika said:
Asante said:
...
What do you consider the single most horrible thought in the universe?


...
but, with regards to the real world,
there were photos from protests in Venezuela a couple years ago
and while the photos of people starving, shot, and run over were haunting
the looks on the faces of the young women who were being carted off separately from the armoured vans of protestors was more haunting
even here in Canada, police abuse their power and sexually exploit the vulnerable
but the Venezuela photos basically told a story of protestors divided up by police on a basis of who they planned to have sex with, willing or not

young man? get on the cart:




young woman? meet your abusers




https://imgur.com/gallery/HjZtm

my hope is for biased reporting of images,
my minimum expectation is that men carted off on motorbikes are not pictured, and it simply has to do with some sort of variation in imprisonment
but worldwide abuse of power by police and state are too rampant for me to think that the best possible outcome is the one that happened
...


was this basically on the hands of the US because of the sanctions?
am not clear on what actually sparked off the protests that gave way to these situations

what degree of 'hurt' can sanctions cause to a foreign country to be at fault
is there a particular threshold, or do any sanctions at all pertain to immediate fault for all subsequent issues?

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25898123 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why are you dodging my questions?  Let's try this again, then I'll answer your question:

"Are you saying you don't believe US sanctions hurt Venezuela?"


No. I don't think they have much of anything to do with the situation reported upon in that piece. In addition, I don't think sanctions themselves are our fault.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25898183 -

We just unilaterally impose them is all.


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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25898245 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Enlil said:
You never identified a false statement made by Last Week Tonight. I was following your lead. I don't think there's anything in there that is verifiably false.


If you can do that, I'll do it vis a vis the RT article. 


John Oliver said "what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault.  Accusing America of creating Venezuala's crisis is about as fair as fair as accusing OJ Simpson of murdering Princess Diana."

Are you saying you don't believe US sanctions hurt Venezuela?

Edit:  If John Oliver said "what's happening in Venezuela is actually not completely our fault, then you'd have a valid point.  But to claim we're not at fault is a lie.


Would love to hear others chime in too.


What’s happening in Venezuela is not our fault. There is a certain amount of arrogance in saying that other countries cannot run themselves into the ground without American interference.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: koods] * 1
    #25898307 -

Nobody is saying that.

It’s actually a testament to the vastness of American imperialism that nearly every country that “collapses” we have a hand in. The arrogance is with those like Trump and Abrams who think they can and should get to choose what kind of government and economy exists in every nation on earth.

After the Bolivarian Revolution in Venezuela, domestic resource production got nationalized, and that pissed off global capital (namely the United States) enough to actively destroy the Chavez (and then Maduro) government. 

I don’t know why this seems to far fetched to you. Nobody is saying there isn’t rampant corruption, and probably even some voter suppression in Venezuela. We just spent the past 3 years cursing Trump for sabotaging our democracy via corruption with an outside power. Is it reasonable for China to impose sanctions on our country, nudging international banks to do the same, crippling our economy. What if China started actively funding communist opposition parties in the States? What if elected leaders in China were sending death threats to Trump via twitter? Or demanding we let their army into our border to administer aid? Or demand Trump step down in favor of some random pro China congressman? Or tried to drone strike the president?

Then after China does everything short of invading the US, and economic and social panic sets in, China can confidently say they had nothing to do with the chaos in America.


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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25898347 -

A good reason why they collapse is as closely related to their governments being antagonistic to us as ours to them - and whether or not it's "fair" - we tend to sanction and cut off our economic ties with any country that doesn't more or less play friendly with US interests. I mean - they shouldn't have to put up with us - but most of these countries made the clear choice to try and 'go it on their own' and form their own economic bloc (i.e. Russia/Libya/Iran/NK/Syria etc) - and see how well it works out for them :lol: They should be realistic and realize that you're not going to form a prosperous economy if you antagonize the richest and most connected country on the planet. It doesn't matter if they like it or not. China is one of the few countries on the planet that can get away with this to a good degree, as they're extremely diverse economically - are vital to our economy - and have a massive domestic market.

And it rarely has as much to do with us being antagonistic to them as it does to them being corrupt pieces of shit. Libya, Iraq, Syria, Russia, and Venezuela are/were almost all nearly 1 resource heavily top-down corrupt governments that neglect their own people and hoard all of the resources in a singular elite ruling group. Furthermore, almost all of these countries have had violent, corrupt, tumultuous histories for hundreds of years - before we even came into play. Funny side fact - is we used to pay tribute to Libya (Barbary States/Ottoman empire puppet) in the late 1700s for them not to pirate our ships, until we said fuck it and invaded them :rofl: ("to the shores of Tripoli" ...blah blah blah... birth of the Marines)

The Chavez government wasn't actually all that unsuccessful, relatively speaking ... - the Maduro one was way more corrupt and sucked all of the life out of Venezuela for their own personal gain.

As far as I'm concerned - it's a relatively small price to pay, in exchange for being part of the global economy and a higher degree of prosperity. It's not like these governments have angelic leaders that are some kind of bastions of personal freedom. They're almost all brutal anti-humanitarian autocracies so I hardly feel bad for them. It's not like we totally manufacture all of the resistance against their governments - they're legitimately terrible in the first place :lol: But if the US sees an opportunity, in the people turning against these governments - and our corporations see an opportunity to make a quick $$ - of course they're going to take it, it's our nature to be economically opportunistic - and that's why we're dominant on the world stage still, even if its a shit thing.


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?


Edited by twighead (03/26/19 04:02 PM)

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: twighead] * 3
    #25898380 -

Chavez cut the poverty rate in half. Similar stories from Castro, Allende, Mossadegh, Gaddhafi. If serving global capital’s interests led to more prosperous economies then communism never would have existed, and that’s not to say all the nations we overthrow are communist. We overthrew Gaddhafi for reasons other than natural resources.

The global community should be challenging the current hegemony and the institutions that bolster it, not submitting to it for fear of retribution. That’s like telling a battered wife she won’t get beat as much if she wears a smile and keeps the kids quiet.


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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: twighead] * 1
    #25898395 -

It's an extremely small price to pay to gain access to some the largest oil reserves in the world. We spent billions attempting that in the middle east.


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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: christopera]
    #25898437 -

Yeah like I said - Chavez' government wasn't entirely unsuccessful - but it also failed to address the underlying issue with the Venezuelan government, and instead of diversifying their economy he preferred to distribute the wealth (in a way that was both good - and also may have just been to a degree - to solidify his popularity as it didn't actually improve the foundation of the country) and fund the further proliferation of quasi-government militia control of the country which Maduro then used to subjugate dissent. Of course, anyone whose studied Venezuelan politics knows this kind of "Chavismo" authoritarian bullshit undercurrent far outdates US interference, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colectivo_(Venezuela)

So when the oil price dipped a bit - combined with the inherent corruption of the govt, it all spiraled into chaos. Of course, it doesn't help that they and the US didn't get along for various economic reasons.

And yeah - it's kind of hard to assign success to any singular government in those sort of historical circumstances - it would've almost been impossible to not have made money in Libya, Venezuela, etc - with those levels of natural resources and the oil price booms from the 70s onwards... It's almost in another sense a testament to how shitty those governments are that they didn't move in the direction of Norway with actually well distributed national wealth as a result of natural resource abundance. Countries like Libya, UAE, etc. have very very small populations to support in contrast to the vast amount of natural wealth they possess. Of course it's not that simple, but it is a big thing to look at.

And really - I wouldn't bring up the likes of Castro as an example of success :lol: Yes - on one hand Cubans were known for being quite happy, and having good social interior support - but also one cannot ignore the huge mass emigrations in the 90s - and the almost complete economic collapse and mass starvation that came with that period of time. So US interference or not - you can't say people like Castro were successes :lol:

And the nature of the euphemistic government at that time was to call their mass famine, and societal/technological regression... the "Special Period" :rofl: if that isn't some 'double-speak' I don't know what is. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Period )

I'm not saying "US GOOD, COMMUNIST/2nd WORLD COUNTRIES BAD"

I'm saying they're equally greedy pieces of shit - mascarading as benevolent, while not actually being so and unrealistic for trying to go against the "global order"

Sure it's morally and idealistically the right thing to do - but is your population going to suffer if you try to do it? And is that morally worse than putting up with US dominance? Up to you to decide... but there are smarter ways to resist US influence than all-out antagonism...

and you sure as hell can bet it wasn't Castro, Maduro, Gaddhafi with his fucking dumb gold chains suffering for their government's actions - it was the citizens of the country. So yeah. I don't feel bad for their governments.

Well here is Gaddafi's hat and gold chain now :lol:



--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?


Edited by twighead (03/26/19 05:07 PM)

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #25898510 -

The Ecstatic said:
Chavez cut the poverty rate in half. Similar stories from Castro, Allende, Mossadegh, Gaddhafi. If serving global capital’s interests led to more prosperous economies then communism never would have existed, and that’s not to say all the nations we overthrow are communist. We overthrew Gaddhafi for reasons other than natural resources.

The global community should be challenging the current hegemony and the institutions that bolster it, not submitting to it for fear of retribution. That’s like telling a battered wife she won’t get beat as much if she wears a smile and keeps the kids quiet.



Can't help but notice that you love defending Gaddafi.


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:hypnotoad:

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: christopera] * 1
    #25898536 -

christopera said:
It's an extremely small price to pay to gain access to some the largest oil reserves in the world. We spent billions attempting that in the middle east.


What exactly does that mean? There was a time 20 years ago when oil was a strategic interest. It isn’t anymore. The US is a net exporter of oil. We don’t need to capture foreign oil fields. I’ve also seen the narrative that the US is punishing Venezuela for nationalizing their oil industry. I think there is the misconception that Chavez took that step. In reality, The state has owned the Venezuelan oil reserves and industry for nearly 50 years.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: koods]
    #25898578 -

Quote:
The Chavez government wasn't actually all that unsuccessful, relatively speaking ... - the Maduro one was way more corrupt and sucked all of the life out of Venezuela for their own personal gain.


It was successful mainly because it could afford to be. The irony is that Venezuela greatly benefitted from America’s folly in Iraq, which lead to artificially high oil prices. This windfall led Chavez to believe that the oil industry could sustain the country alone. He was extremely hostile to foreign investment and as a result that investment vanished. The agriculture sector atrophied from over reliance on imports and price controls. Then oil prices collapsed. Foreign and domestic business were gone. Anyone with the means left the country. Maduro faced politcal pressure and abandoned democracy, banning and arresting anyone who posed a political threat. The last election was a farce. Desperate citizens had their votes extorted and bribed with food and fear of repercussions for not voting for maduro.

What really bothers me about this situation is how maduro and Chavez have always blamed the US for anything that goes wrong. Their incompetence is repackaged as American sabotage. The opposition is delegitamized as being controlled by foreign forces. Maduro is using Americans who are so eager to point the finger at the us government, and it’s working.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: koods] * 1
    #25898587 -

Who are you and what have you done with the real koods?!?!!

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Re: Sanders 2020 [Re: koods] * 1
    #25898590 -

Maybe if the US didn’t try to sabotage nations that defied US interests at every opportunity, those arguments wouldn’t hold any weight. Same goes for Assad in Syria, or KJU in North Korea. It’s easy to scapegoat the US because we’ve been the dominant imperial power for nearly a century.


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