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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25759118 -

Mechanical materialism is harder to break. Non-Causal Connecting Principles are hard to grasp.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #25759847 -

thealienthatategod said:
if a tree (let's say an Oak tree) did have thoughts, what would tree thoughts be like?

what would it think about?

trees have sense organs very different than our own, designed for a different intended purpose, but they give the tree information about its surroundings and environment.

you walk up to the Oak tree, and stare at it intently.

the oak tree can perceive you,

what is the Oak trees perception of you?

how would it see (perceive) you?


Well yeah I believe they do but not as we as humans do.

I mean treas would 'think' ooh the Suns out and there's light to eat.
They'd also 'think' or realise that it is raining, they too would 'think' to close their stomata in times of drought to reduce water loss.

When some plants are attacked they too would 'think', hey, there's something attacking me so I'll tell my friends. This is because some trees chemically communicate to surrounding trees of the same species that they are under attack by pests, this then results in an increased release of certain chemicals in the other plants that repel pests.

And if a tree where to 'perceive' someone standing nearby I can only presume it would be in the form of, "there is an increased pressure on my roots in this certain location".


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: sudly]
    #25760779 -

may be the trees are doing algebra. 

sensing pressure on the roots seems pretty mundane.

may be trees select which leaves fall off, and in the process, it's how they write Shakespeare.

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: sudly]
    #25760892 -

thealienthatategod said:
may be the trees are doing algebra. 

sensing pressure on the roots seems pretty mundane.

may be trees select which leaves fall off, and in the process, it's how they write Shakespeare.

the cells of trees do do volumetric algebraic chemical self-regulations


sudly said:
…
And if a tree where to 'perceive' someone standing nearby I can only presume it would be in the form of, "there is an increased pressure on my roots in this certain location".


this depends on memory of pressures on roots combined with memories of other possible sensations, which have not been shown to exist.

how can any perception exist without reference, i.e. to perceive as, or to discern from a view or a sound or a taste etc.
we perceive against a backdrop of memory, fragments of which may be similar to what is being experienced. when there is a resonance with some memory fragment, at that moment precisely you can say perception is occurring.


figures (object signals) are not separable from background (noise) without learning. However, some signals, such as bright colors, override the noise to trigger instinctive attractions and avoidances. This falls into a range of instinctual behaviors and ties into the part that beauty plays in evolution. Instinctual 'perceptions' ascribe positive and negative body feelings with patterned and very simple sensory cues, so that without any previous experience, even very simple brains can respond with motive behavior or thoughts or attraction or escape.


Trees don't show this.

(some people still think that sensation includes perception or is equivalent. this is an unfortunate inaccuracy in the use of language.)


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25760911 -

redgreenvines said:
figures (object signals) are not separable from background (noise) without learning. However, some signals, such as bright colors, override the noise to trigger instinctive attractions and avoidances. This falls into a range of instinctual behaviors and ties into the part that beauty plays in evolution. Instinctual 'perceptions' ascribe positive and negative body feelings with patterned and very simple sensory cues, so that without any previous experience, even very simple brains can respond with motive behavior or thoughts or attraction or escape.


Trees don't show this.

(some people still think that sensation includes perception or is equivalent. this is an unfortunate inaccuracy in the use of language.)



i'm curious about what some examples of instinctual 'perceptions' would be in humans?

do animals have this kind of 'perception'?

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #25761052 -

yes many animals have this.

our simple early human (baby) behaviors are largely as a result - eg swallowing, grasping and kicking in the womb become rooting (milk seeking) suckling, and flailing. but animals like bees do more complex things when they encounter specific shapes and colors to modify their flight for approach and to drink at flowers.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25761097 -

if animals and humans show this kind of perception, then what is the reason why trees don't have this kind of perception?

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #25761735 -

An example of chemical communication between trees:

http://etuttobuono.blogspot.com/2017/01/bitterness-spreadsa-tale-of-african.html

"...So, faced with a predator such as a Giraffe, you might wander how Acacia trees survive at all.  The secret to their survival is bitterness. Yes, you read that correctly, bitterness is the key.  You see, to prevent overgrazing, which will result in the death of the tree, the Acacia participates in chemical warfare.  When the tree senses an "attack" on it's leaves it does two things.  First, it increases a chemical in it's leaves called tannin.  In small amounts, tannin doesn't bother animals, but in increased amounts, it turns the leaves bitter.  In fact, animals that have continued to eat the leaves after the tannin has been increased have been known to die, because the tannin is toxic in large amounts.

Next, the tree  releases a chemical called ethylene into the air.  This chemical is carried downwind to other Acacia trees and when those trees "sense" this chemical, they are then triggered to release the tannins in their leaves, turning them bitter, and to release more ethylene into the air... which is carried downwind... and so on. So the bitterness is passed on, down through the line of trees, thus preventing overgrazing in that area.  The Giraffe are on to this game, and the minute they sense that the leaves are turning bitter, they move on to another tree, UPWIND."

...Also trees communicate through the mycelium neural network that connects the roots to neighboring trees. Some trees will keep neighboring trees alive even after they have fallen over and hollowed out into a ring. If you cut into the bark of a ring stump, you might see the green of chlorophyll. How on earth can a tree stump continue to produce chlorphyll? It's because its tree neighbor refuses to pull the damn plug. The theory is that trees can send nutrients to other trees via the mycleium network.

Oh and oak trees drop acorns strategically. Its a theory I think but each season they drop different amounts and it fucks with the deer population with the hopes of them eating less and sprouting some baby oaks.

If you're interested in this kinda stuff I recommend reading "the hidden life of trees". It's kinda dense though. I only got halfway through

Edited by Mondangle (01/22/19 07:58 PM)

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: Mondangle]
    #25762000 -

How can something move without intention?

Im thinking maybe growing.. like when your a child you don't need to intend to grow through puberty to attain adulthood..

But maybe there is some cells in the body that replicate/grow with intention..


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Thank you for your Time...

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25762968 -

"Plants can smell, now researchers know how

First steps to understanding biochemistry of how plants detect odors"

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-01/uot-pcs012219.php

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #25763369 -

thealienthatategod said:
if animals and humans show this kind of perception, then what is the reason why trees don't have this kind of perception?


you missed the definition of perception.
perception means recognized when sensed.
plants do not have undifferentiated recognition organs (brains)
they also lack nerves so the items around them are not even sensed, although they might be reacted to phytochemically if the plant DNA has a reaction coded for the event.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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