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do you think trees have thoughts?
    #25745394 -

if a tree (let's say an Oak tree) did have thoughts, what would tree thoughts be like?

what would it think about?

trees have sense organs very different than our own, designed for a different intended purpose, but they give the tree information about its surroundings and environment.

you walk up to the Oak tree, and stare at it intently.

the oak tree can perceive you,

what is the Oak trees perception of you?

how would it see (perceive) you?

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #25745399 -

Get away from the weed and DMT


--------------------


Nothing breads nothing

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #25745403 -

*Mm*

*Light*

*Sun*

*Warmth*

*Water*


--------------------


I didn't draw this.

"Hope your day is as wonderful, loving, and kind as you are."
:heart:

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: life is good]
    #25745667 -

trees only have 2 thoughts:
"sun" and "water"


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25745890 -

yes they have thoughts
but they can't see the forest for the trees
and they don't know if they are falling
for cliche questions about sounds and someone
needing to hear them

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #25746938 -

I needed to hear that

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25746944 -

:smile:

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: laughingdog]
    #25747352 -

I used to know
an old man
who could
walk
by any
cornfield
and hear
the corn singing,

"Teach me,"
I'd say
when we'd
pass on by.
(I never said
a word
while he was
listening.)

"Just tell me
how
you learned
to hear
that
corn."

And he'd say,
"It takes
a lot of
practice.
You can't
be
in a hurry."

And I'd say,
"I have
the time."

He was so
good
at listening-
once
he heard
wildflower seeds
burst open,
beginning
to grow
underground.

That's hard to do.

He said
he was just
lucky
to have been
by himself
up there
in the canyon
after the rain.

He said
it was the
quietest place
he'd ever been
and he'd stayed there
long enough to
understand
the quiet.

I said,
"I bet you were
surprised
when you heard
those seeds."

But
he said,
"No,
I wasn't surprised at all.
It seemed like the most
natural
thing
in the world."

He just smiled,
remembering.

Another time he heard a rock
kind of
murmur
good things
to a lizard.

I was there.

We saw the lizard
sunning
on a rock.
Of course,
we stopped.

The old man said,
"I wonder how
that lizard
feels
about the rock it's
sitting on
and how the rock
feels
about the lizard."

He always
asked himself
hard
questions
that take
awhile
to answer.

We leaned against
another rock.
A long time
passed,
and then
he said,
"Did you hear that?
They like each other
fine."

I said,
"I didn't hear
a thing."

He said,
"Sometimes
EVERYTHING
BEING RIGHT
makes a kind of
sound.

Like just now.
It wasn't much more
than a
good feeling
that I heard
from that old rock."

"Were you surprised
to hear it?"
I always had
to ask.

He said,
"Not a bit.
It seems like the most
natural
thing
in the world."

I said,
"I wish
I'd heard it
too."

He said he thought
I might
someday.


excerpt from  The Other Way to Listen by Byrd Baylor

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #25752241 -

I think they have a way of perceiving and communicating but it is a very basic form. Basic but beautiful.

My jade plant wilts when it is thirsty. Is it communicating via direct signal to another being? Maybe not, but it is showing an outward sign of inward distress.

If I water the jade it plumps up. It's signaling that it is well watered.  Plumping up is just an outcome of adding water, but it is still also an outward indication of inward state.

When I move it into the direct sun, the rims of it's leaves turn red in response. The plant is now indicating that it is in optimum position for photosynthesis. When it flowers in the fall it's indicating that it is good and stable health and has been for some time and expects to be for the future.

Again, this is not a plant sending me direct messages, rather it's a plant indicating outwardly which solicits a response.

Is that communication? That could be argued for a long time. Does the plant perceive me? My anecdotal evidence is that my plants and (especially) animals communicate to me all the time about their current state. Not the way people talk, but they're not people.

Plants, animals, and environments all have their own way of talking in my opinion. The scope of consciousness behind that talking obviously varies wildly and is up for interpretation I suppose, but it seems about more learning to listen rather than translating the signal to something that makes sense to our human minds - being the pinnacle of nature communicating.

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: Rnasty]
    #25752560 -

I would imagine that if trees do have 'thoughts', then they would suffer to a degree unimaginable to us.

Given trees can be cut down and regrow from nothing more than a stump, I think if a conciousness does exist, it exists in the ground and their roots, probably as a collective of the many roots and symbiotic fungi.

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: Freakofnature]
    #25752611 -

Yeah I think they have thoughts..or otherwise hidden motives?


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25752612 -

Because they are alive..they likely have some form of rudimentary consciousness...


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25753010 -

sensation and memory formation is difficult to conceive of in a tree, however the trunks do form rings (a kind of memory), but the rings are not available for perception, and I don't see how sensation (beyond nutrition (water + sun) aee recorded in rings.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25753331 -

plants communicate, as do many living cells ***
but it is chemical messaging
not dualistic conceptual thought

when our liver communicates
with our other organs we don't know about it

same even in our brains
we actually have no knowledge or experience
of how, or where we think, perceive, see, hear, etc.

I think we tend to over rate thinking :lol:

***
see for example:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chemical+messaging+plants

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: laughingdog]
    #25754016 -

ok maybe thinking is extremely fast electro-tropism

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #25757653 -

Trees DO communicate. It is fascinating. They do not uproot themselves, walk and talk like Ents, but they DO communicate in ways incomprehensible to humans sans some very rudimentary understanding.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25757668 -

I think they just feel, they don't think.


--------------------
AndAwaaaaayWeGrow

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25758147 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Trees DO communicate. It is fascinating. They do not uproot themselves, walk and talk like Ents, but they DO communicate in ways incomprehensible to humans sans some very rudimentary understanding.


define communicate.
I see no gossipy chit chat happening at any level among plants, only chemical distress and systemic chemical responses or tropisms.

I would not coddle the claim of plants communicating, it is a terrible stretch of definitions; science requires reliable word usage.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25758622 -

Mycorrhizal relationships are more far reaching than the Amanita muscaria and gymnosperm trees. https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/artful-amoeba/dying-trees-can-send-food-to-neighbors-of-different-species/

"This amazes me. On the face of it, it appears as if the douglas-fir is acting altruistically (without expectation of return) to help neighbors of a completely different species in light of its own probable demise. Even without the altruism, that trees as widely unrelated as douglas-fir and ponderosa pine can transfer resources to each other for any reason through fungi from a completely different kingdom is a shocker to me.

Did the douglas-fir “intentionally” and altruistically send food and defensive signals to the ponderosa pine, or did the fungus act to take them there? It’s possible that it is only a passive effect of a source-sink scenario, where the douglas-fir dumped food into its mycorrhizae for safe-keeping in light of severe stress, and the excess resources simply moved from an area of high concentration to an area of low concentration (the growing, resource-hungry ponderosa pine). It’s also possible the douglas-fir is behaving somewhat altruistically and somewhat pragmatically, since exporting carbon to its root network may benefit nearby trees that are close relatives (offspring, even?), and any spillover to trees of completely different species that keeps them healthy may also benefit these same relatives by keeping the entire forest system healthy."


https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-trees-180968084/

"A revolution has been taking place in the scientific understanding of trees, and Wohlleben is the first writer to convey its amazements to a general audience. The latest scientific studies, conducted at well-respected universities in Germany and around the world, confirm what he has long suspected from close observation in this forest: Trees are far more alert, social, sophisticated—and even intelligent—than we thought."


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25758778 -

no intention is involved in the life or death of trees or fungus.

the natural world has evolved with many wonderful layers of complexity and interdependence, with many yet to be discovered; but do not think they are intentionally hiding.


anthropomorphic habits are hard to break.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25759118 -

Mechanical materialism is harder to break. Non-Causal Connecting Principles are hard to grasp.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod] * 1
    #25759847 -

thealienthatategod said:
if a tree (let's say an Oak tree) did have thoughts, what would tree thoughts be like?

what would it think about?

trees have sense organs very different than our own, designed for a different intended purpose, but they give the tree information about its surroundings and environment.

you walk up to the Oak tree, and stare at it intently.

the oak tree can perceive you,

what is the Oak trees perception of you?

how would it see (perceive) you?


Well yeah I believe they do but not as we as humans do.

I mean treas would 'think' ooh the Suns out and there's light to eat.
They'd also 'think' or realise that it is raining, they too would 'think' to close their stomata in times of drought to reduce water loss.

When some plants are attacked they too would 'think', hey, there's something attacking me so I'll tell my friends. This is because some trees chemically communicate to surrounding trees of the same species that they are under attack by pests, this then results in an increased release of certain chemicals in the other plants that repel pests.

And if a tree where to 'perceive' someone standing nearby I can only presume it would be in the form of, "there is an increased pressure on my roots in this certain location".


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: sudly]
    #25760779 -

may be the trees are doing algebra. 

sensing pressure on the roots seems pretty mundane.

may be trees select which leaves fall off, and in the process, it's how they write Shakespeare.

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: sudly]
    #25760892 -

thealienthatategod said:
may be the trees are doing algebra. 

sensing pressure on the roots seems pretty mundane.

may be trees select which leaves fall off, and in the process, it's how they write Shakespeare.

the cells of trees do do volumetric algebraic chemical self-regulations


sudly said:
…
And if a tree where to 'perceive' someone standing nearby I can only presume it would be in the form of, "there is an increased pressure on my roots in this certain location".


this depends on memory of pressures on roots combined with memories of other possible sensations, which have not been shown to exist.

how can any perception exist without reference, i.e. to perceive as, or to discern from a view or a sound or a taste etc.
we perceive against a backdrop of memory, fragments of which may be similar to what is being experienced. when there is a resonance with some memory fragment, at that moment precisely you can say perception is occurring.


figures (object signals) are not separable from background (noise) without learning. However, some signals, such as bright colors, override the noise to trigger instinctive attractions and avoidances. This falls into a range of instinctual behaviors and ties into the part that beauty plays in evolution. Instinctual 'perceptions' ascribe positive and negative body feelings with patterned and very simple sensory cues, so that without any previous experience, even very simple brains can respond with motive behavior or thoughts or attraction or escape.


Trees don't show this.

(some people still think that sensation includes perception or is equivalent. this is an unfortunate inaccuracy in the use of language.)


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25760911 -

redgreenvines said:
figures (object signals) are not separable from background (noise) without learning. However, some signals, such as bright colors, override the noise to trigger instinctive attractions and avoidances. This falls into a range of instinctual behaviors and ties into the part that beauty plays in evolution. Instinctual 'perceptions' ascribe positive and negative body feelings with patterned and very simple sensory cues, so that without any previous experience, even very simple brains can respond with motive behavior or thoughts or attraction or escape.


Trees don't show this.

(some people still think that sensation includes perception or is equivalent. this is an unfortunate inaccuracy in the use of language.)



i'm curious about what some examples of instinctual 'perceptions' would be in humans?

do animals have this kind of 'perception'?

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #25761052 -

yes many animals have this.

our simple early human (baby) behaviors are largely as a result - eg swallowing, grasping and kicking in the womb become rooting (milk seeking) suckling, and flailing. but animals like bees do more complex things when they encounter specific shapes and colors to modify their flight for approach and to drink at flowers.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25761097 -

if animals and humans show this kind of perception, then what is the reason why trees don't have this kind of perception?

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #25761735 -

An example of chemical communication between trees:

http://etuttobuono.blogspot.com/2017/01/bitterness-spreadsa-tale-of-african.html

"...So, faced with a predator such as a Giraffe, you might wander how Acacia trees survive at all.  The secret to their survival is bitterness. Yes, you read that correctly, bitterness is the key.  You see, to prevent overgrazing, which will result in the death of the tree, the Acacia participates in chemical warfare.  When the tree senses an "attack" on it's leaves it does two things.  First, it increases a chemical in it's leaves called tannin.  In small amounts, tannin doesn't bother animals, but in increased amounts, it turns the leaves bitter.  In fact, animals that have continued to eat the leaves after the tannin has been increased have been known to die, because the tannin is toxic in large amounts.

Next, the tree  releases a chemical called ethylene into the air.  This chemical is carried downwind to other Acacia trees and when those trees "sense" this chemical, they are then triggered to release the tannins in their leaves, turning them bitter, and to release more ethylene into the air... which is carried downwind... and so on. So the bitterness is passed on, down through the line of trees, thus preventing overgrazing in that area.  The Giraffe are on to this game, and the minute they sense that the leaves are turning bitter, they move on to another tree, UPWIND."

...Also trees communicate through the mycelium neural network that connects the roots to neighboring trees. Some trees will keep neighboring trees alive even after they have fallen over and hollowed out into a ring. If you cut into the bark of a ring stump, you might see the green of chlorophyll. How on earth can a tree stump continue to produce chlorphyll? It's because its tree neighbor refuses to pull the damn plug. The theory is that trees can send nutrients to other trees via the mycleium network.

Oh and oak trees drop acorns strategically. Its a theory I think but each season they drop different amounts and it fucks with the deer population with the hopes of them eating less and sprouting some baby oaks.

If you're interested in this kinda stuff I recommend reading "the hidden life of trees". It's kinda dense though. I only got halfway through

Edited by Mondangle (01/22/19 07:58 PM)

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: Mondangle]
    #25762000 -

How can something move without intention?

Im thinking maybe growing.. like when your a child you don't need to intend to grow through puberty to attain adulthood..

But maybe there is some cells in the body that replicate/grow with intention..


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25762968 -

"Plants can smell, now researchers know how

First steps to understanding biochemistry of how plants detect odors"

https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-01/uot-pcs012219.php

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Re: do you think trees have thoughts? [Re: thealienthatategod]
    #25763369 -

thealienthatategod said:
if animals and humans show this kind of perception, then what is the reason why trees don't have this kind of perception?


you missed the definition of perception.
perception means recognized when sensed.
plants do not have undifferentiated recognition organs (brains)
they also lack nerves so the items around them are not even sensed, although they might be reacted to phytochemically if the plant DNA has a reaction coded for the event.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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