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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25741145 -

People are always searching for meaning.. but how can we have meaning without evaluation of the value of meaning.. protests are true in time.. you are free and are litterally creating this moment..

Random corporation is true!

Interesting dialogue?


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741155 -

BrendanFlock said:
People are always searching for meaning.. but how can we have meaning without evaluation of the value of meaning.. protests are true in time.. you are free and are litterally creating this moment..

Random corporation is true!

Interesting dialogue?


Yes it's interesting.

If all the world is a stage and we are but merely players, some players:

Heal other players.
Make other players think they need things they don't really need.
Amuse other players.
Use other players in their wealth building enterprises.
Sell teachings to other players.
Trade resources with other players.
Compete with other players.
Violate other players.
Profit off of other players.
Protect other players.
Slaughter other players.

What each player does is derivative of what they give meaning and value to. If nothing has meaning and value the play stops by my reckoning. if everything has equal value what becomes of the play?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25741169 -

Nihilism itself is a protest about meaning..

Nihilists think that everythimg means nothing or things lack meaning..

But the first assumption itself is a relation in time..

Is awareness meaning necesarily?


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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741177 -

BrendanFlock said:
Nihilism itself is a protest about meaning..

Nihilists think that everythimg means nothing or things lack meaning..

But the first assumption itself is a relation in time..

Is awareness meaning necesarily?


I'm starting to think so, I'm thinking the literature on the Buddhist jhana's is the best description of the place from which this would be seen most evidently. A place from which all games are seen for their emptiness, the play seen for it's meaninglessness, etc. A place that if witnessed I presume would change many peoples approach to the play.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25741196 -

There is a categorical imperative which is fulfilled.. via binah.. which is an ever forsaken fortress..calculations are fortifications..


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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741197 -

Obletives.. Xenia Aunotop.. previously owned luggage.. release from inside and out!.. neither a pear nor peril..!


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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741200 -

You have to realize the greatness of the self to continue!

Archetypes are hidden in the architecture of existence.. which is nothing as a type of slack!


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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741206 -

Righto Dude, that's too weird for me. I hope it means something to you.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25741437 -

compulsive posting


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee] * 1
    #25741865 -

MayaRefugee said:
Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?

What lies at the core of our propensity to value certain things over others or to ascribe meaning to certain things when, if  you believe what you read, the true nature of things is undifferentiated/non-dual/made of the same stuff?

What are your thoughts on the concepts of meaning and value and their place in the human drama?


These questions only arise when one, so to speak, "steps outside of oneself".

(While enjoying a meal or "having sex" these questions are not normally considered. Or in any situation where attention is immersed in experiencing fully).

It is usually only when the body's biological needs are quiescent, that the mind indulges in the illusion that it can step outside of living, and it then imagines it possesses something called "its life", and that this has a narrative that it perceives accurately, and that what possesses all this, is a self, that is separate from the rest of reality.
Then the mind, conveniently forgets it has made all these very questionable assumptions, and generates emotional states based on the direction of these thoughts, and all this is taken to be reality. To top all this off with imagining one is searching for truth, and that this truth can be encapsulated in "meaning", is a wonderful exercise in "self hypnosis" ! ! !

And even more ironic and outrageous these "meanings" are then collected into beliefs and so called "faith" and codified into religions to which folks imagine they belong, and then these folks & religions argue about the beliefs and often go to war.

Makes the world go round so to speak.

The wise manage to maintain a sense of humor, which is precisely what searching for meaning and value lacks.

An aspect of the so called cosmic joke is that it is too obvious to be considered seriously by most ! ! !

Edited by laughingdog (01/13/19 03:00 PM)

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #25742270 -

laughingdog said:
MayaRefugee said:
Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?

What lies at the core of our propensity to value certain things over others or to ascribe meaning to certain things when, if  you believe what you read, the true nature of things is undifferentiated/non-dual/made of the same stuff?

What are your thoughts on the concepts of meaning and value and their place in the human drama?


These questions only arise when one, so to speak, "steps outside of oneself".

(While enjoying a meal or "having sex" these questions are not normally considered. Or in any situation where attention is immersed in experiencing fully).

It is usually only when the body's biological needs are quiescent, that the mind indulges in the illusion that it can step outside of living, and it then imagines it possesses something called "its life", and that this has a narrative that it perceives accurately, and that what possesses all this, is a self, that is separate from the rest of reality.
Then the mind, conveniently forgets it has made all these very questionable assumptions, and generates emotional states based on the direction of these thoughts, and all this is taken to be reality. To top all this off with imagining one is searching for truth, and that this truth can be encapsulated in "meaning", is a wonderful exercise in "self hypnosis" ! ! !

And even more ironic and outrageous these "meanings" are then collected into beliefs and so called "faith" and codified into religions to which folks imagine they belong, and then these folks & religions argue about the beliefs and often go to war.

Makes the world go round so to speak.

The wise manage to maintain a sense of humor, which is precisely what searching for meaning and value lacks.

An aspect of the so called cosmic joke is that it is too obvious to be considered seriously by most ! ! !


Your post made me think of the song All Along The Watchtower.

There must be some kind of way outta here
Said the joker to the thief
There's too much confusion
I can't get no relief
Business men, they drink my wine
Plowman dig my earth
None were level on the mind
Nobody up at his word
Hey, hey
No reason to get excited
The thief he kindly spoke
There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke
But, uh, but you and I, we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us stop talkin' falsely now
The hour's getting late, hey
All along the watchtower
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
Barefoot servants, too
Outside in the cold distance
A wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching
And the wind began to howl

I agree with what you say, from the watchtower it's inevitable that observations will be made and thus criticisms formed of how things are done by those never having had experience in the watchtower.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25743420 -

Frankly I never understood the song,
it seems to play with sounding profound,
and being a mix of ambiguity and obscurity,
(so the intent almost seems to be a trap,
for those who think Dylan has a more profound truth than they do).
And the mood is certainly not pleasant, and seems quite dark.

I wouldn't say life is a joke,
but certainly taking the self as seriously as most do, leads,
both to suffering and misperception of reality.

And reality is paradoxical, which again, seems to be a sort of 'joke',
we usually miss.
One example is that having children, which the average person & families consider a blessing, is actually to condemn another being to both suffering and death.
Perhaps I am as dark as Dylan, was here?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: laughingdog]
    #25743454 -

it was a very stoned experience a long time ago, and it sounded absolutely excellent when he sang it.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25743485 -

yes it sounded good
and it was/ is definitely poetic

but is its virtue in being like a rorschach test,
or in actually having something to say?
and if so what?
and do folks agree on what that what is?

that last sentence was fun!

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25743821 -

MayaRefugee said:
Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?

What lies at the core of our propensity to value certain things over others or to ascribe meaning to certain things when, if  you believe what you read, the true nature of things is undifferentiated/non-dual/made of the same stuff?

What are your thoughts on the concepts of meaning and value and their place in the human drama?


If one recognizes meaning is the same as purpose, it becomes obvious where the value lies.

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/14/19 05:07 PM)

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: laughingdog]
    #25743833 -

laughingdog said:
Frankly I never understood the song,
it seems to play with sounding profound,
and being a mix of ambiguity and obscurity,
(so the intent almost seems to be a trap,
for those who think Dylan has a more profound truth than they do).
And the mood is certainly not pleasant, and seems quite dark.

I wouldn't say life is a joke,
but certainly taking the self as seriously as most do, leads,
both to suffering and misperception of reality.

And reality is paradoxical, which again, seems to be a sort of 'joke',
we usually miss.
One example is that having children, which the average person & families consider a blessing, is actually to condemn another being to both suffering and death.
Perhaps I am as dark as Dylan, was here?


Think of the time it was written.
There was a movement.

Once you see past the screen you can go a couple of ways.

A lot of souls confused and coming to harmful conclusions.
Let us not talk falsely now.

The lyrics really sum up alot of the discourse here on the shroomery.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: pineninja]
    #25744005 -

To me the songs always seemed like an observation of the world from the point of view of poets, seers, artists, sages, etc. He talks about the activities of the world, the prevalence of concern over predatory threat (our animal nature still active to some extent, fears, security, bodily threats, etc.), what value certain occupations have to him, what attitudes are at play within the world. It's like a call for others to transcend it all and see it from the watchtower where he's lonely and confused. Almost as though the meanings and values active in the world have him confused, objectionable and without relief. My take on the joker and thief part is that jokers give laughter, thieves take from people - these seem like the two possibilities he sees for being in the world, almost in a comedy tragedy type dichotomy e.g. take money, take a wage, take up peoples time, take other peoples opportunities, etc. or give relief.

Edited by MayaRefugee (01/14/19 06:25 PM)

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25744240 -

...Well I think already we see, from the various posts, that it is so vague and suggestive that it is indeed like a Rorschach test.
....What is clever is that he hooks us into suspecting a deep meaning is hidden and about to be revealed, unlike Magritte's painting "This is not a pipe", which calls into question searching for hidden meanings, perhaps like Zen.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=this+is+not+a+pipe+painting&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images

The content, of the song is surprisingly short and simple----basically the outline is like this:

Oddly it starts with the joker who feels trapped
and complains

The thief at first seems to play the role of rescuer,
saying that: 'life is a joke'
(i.e. don’t take it all so seriously)
but then takes away this source of solace

but then immediately refers to the fact that we must all die
( with the effect again of making the seriousness of life a sort of a joke, which he has just denied it is )

after that a desolate landscape is presented with lots of characters (6) and no real action, only a vague  desolate future is suggested with the rhyme ‘growl and howl’

And watchtowers that are found in prisons, along borders, military installations, and perhaps in Kafka novels---again a very ominous reference----and he is Jewish (Bob Zimmerman) and they also occurred in the Nazi concentration camps. And the wind is a previous symbol or element in his repertoire, that suggests in that context, that meaning is not hidden.

---------------------
Finally
So adding to the ambiguity a reversal of roles occurs. The joker who 'should' be the wild card and free is the one who is trapped, and the thief who must curtail his freedom to hide from the law is the one who is calm and undisturbed.
-----------------
So like a disturbing dream, it has a haunting quality, but there is nothing that is tangible....

So if I had to ascribe a meaning, it would seem, to me, it suggests:
1) we all have a tendency to complain
2) we are mortal so its a waste of time (to complain) & we better grow up
3) likewise a philosophy that says either that "life is a joke"
or that "life is not a joke" is irrelevant as in either case we are
responsible for our actions
and will die anyway

thus it is a very sobering song and therefore couched in poetic obscuring terms,
to slip the message past the conscious mind,
but he tells us, in a sense he has no choice, but to create it, as he is a poet of truth.

this is of course only the result of my taking the
Rorschach test.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: laughingdog]
    #25744462 -

Imagine a watcher of the world taking stock, a watcher and a creator, he imagines himself up on the walls of the city or country he finds himself in, the city of existence. He spies a businessman and knows despite his insipid occupation he needs him to buy his wine i.e. music, he sees the ploughman and frames him as someone that digs his earth. Outside the walls are animals on the hunt, wildcats possibly, they scare him and this fear never relents. He's seen so much of all this from up there that nothing really excites him anymore and getting excited usually just leads to trouble plus he knows that cool heads prevail when you're fighting for a cause. He thinks to himself how the problems within these walls aren't something to joke about, he used to think that but doesn't anymore because if you're going to create things like jokes or heists than with a little extra effort you could create things that change the world so why joke about things, why hurt the world coming up with schemes - that's time wasted. Looking down he sees that no-one is really honest with each other, it's all just commerce and sexual gratification. He thinks to himself how no-one is on his wavelength and nobody gets what he says anyway so what does it matter if he speaks about this conundrum of his as though someone else is having it. His mind shifts to the struggle he has seeing himself as a fool, playing the fool, acting the fool and being honest, earning an honest living - decides he is a joker and somewhat a thief - attributes these qualities to someone else in his notebook. Still on the wall he considers how in the castle the princes are running things inside the walls, and how his life "down there" was mainly just a coming and going of women. The now rich Dylan feels a pang of guilt having let people do things for him he could have done himself just because he had the money to pay someone else, he refers to them as "barefoot servants" in his notebook, still, up here on the wall. He feels his back-side become numb and decides to get up and leave, refers to this moment as two riders approaching as ones response to this is one of getting up to investigate, much like what he is doing now. He is annoyed by what he has observed on this evening and has a hankering for referring to the existential climate as wind hence describes the current state of his wind as howling. As he climbs down the wall he thinks to himself "There must be some kind of way out of here?" in detest of what he has seen on this evening, on the walls of the city of existence.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25744490 -

I am the man and i am the joker.
The system is the thief.
Realising is there for those who look.
The system is a man.

Funny how our individual interpretations take us to our own points of fundamentally flawed surety.

When trying to externalise the ills of the world you have most likely looked past your own indescretions.

****

Too dehumanize a construct.
Is to lose sight of a self.
Untimely bad conduct.
A connectedness shelved.

Reflections of a condition.
Experienced by all.
A communal direction.
Assumptions to fall.

To find comfort, or not, though.
When the complex becomes simple.
Intrinsic part of us, so.
Can you blame a star for its twinkle.

Spectre of powers.
Seen not by the eye.
Evil mind built towers.
Just some every day guy.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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