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OfflineMayaRefugee
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Meaning and Value
    #25732485 - 01/08/19 09:36 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?

What lies at the core of our propensity to value certain things over others or to ascribe meaning to certain things when, if  you believe what you read, the true nature of things is undifferentiated/non-dual/made of the same stuff?

What are your thoughts on the concepts of meaning and value and their place in the human drama?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25732558 - 01/08/19 10:06 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Given that: " Most people move through a fog of preconceptions, unconscious fantasies, Oedipal plots and ideational patterns that distorts the tiny portion of available reality they allow themselves to see(,) into a form they already know."1....I think our values are pretty much orchastrated.


1. Peter Straub


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OfflineMayaRefugee
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25732648 - 01/08/19 10:39 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Behind or deep within the orchestration is there not some form of dissonance that is being quelled by the "fog of preconceptions, unconscious fantasies, Oedipal plots and ideational patterns"?

What use is value and meaning if this dissonance doesn't exist?

What if this reason to pursue, maintain, protect, accumulate, etc. the things you have assigned value or meaning to falls away?

Is this pursue, maintain, protect, accumulate, etc. orchestration just some yoke we happily put around our necks?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25732659 - 01/08/19 10:42 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Rather than donned happily, I think it can be shown that the yoke is drummed into us.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25732670 - 01/08/19 10:48 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MayaRefugee said:
is there not some form of dissonance that is being quelled by the "fog of preconceptions, unconscious fantasies, Oedipal plots and ideational patterns"?






Yes, the dissonance that sparked Herod's pogrom was his own discomfort. The jealous protection of our personal comfort promotes order to that effect.


Edited by Buster_Brown (01/08/19 10:48 PM)


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OfflineMayaRefugee
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25732674 - 01/08/19 10:49 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Where do you stand on the merit, ethics, need, virtue, etc. of this drumming process?

Is there any merit in undrumming?


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25732720 - 01/08/19 11:08 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

The difficulties encountered in a non-uniform pattern are their unfamiliarity. Because we are primarily creatures of habit the non-uniform tends to be shunned as our habits set in, and so the establishment and insistence on uniformity may be more pronounced in the aged.


Edited by Buster_Brown (01/08/19 11:09 PM)


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25732729 - 01/08/19 11:12 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Basically then, in deference to the aged, the youth are proscribed.


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OfflineCory Duchesne
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25732746 - 01/08/19 11:19 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

“The paradox of individuation is that we best serve intimate relationship by becoming sufficiently developed in ourselves that we do not need to feed off others.” - James Hollis, The Middle Passage: From Misery to Meaning in Midlife


--------------------
C.G. Jung: "Please remember, it is what you are that heals, not what you know."

"I shall not commit the fashionable stupidity of regarding everything I cannot explain as a fraud." - Carl Jung

"Attention may last a second. That is good enough. Don't be greedy to have more. In the greed to have more, you have already created the centre, and then you are caught."
〜 J Krishnamurti

"All your questions are born out of the answers you already have. Any answer anybody gives should put an end to your questions. But it does not." [UG-K]


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OfflineMayaRefugee
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25732767 - 01/08/19 11:32 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, etc. all overturned the value framework at play in their time with their contributions to the world hence it is possible for the elderly proscribed uniformity to be made obsolete by those walking the non-uniform.

My inquiry is more about getting opinions and perspectives on the whole process or human tendency toward synthesizing value and meaning, kind of along the lines of attachment and desire and the bullshit and suffering that goes along with that.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeardM
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25733055 - 01/09/19 05:42 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MayaRefugee said:
Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?



Only as much as all life is just this.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25733185 - 01/09/19 08:12 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MayaRefugee said:
My inquiry is more about getting opinions and perspectives on the whole process or human tendency toward synthesizing value and meaning, kind of along the lines of attachment and desire and the bullshit and suffering that goes along with that.




Perhaps the philosophy of 'One life to live' stems from our abhorrence of the conditions we force-feed our young...that the fundamental reality pertains to dishonesty and violence as the means of securing our comfort. Under such conditions anyone would not desire to begin again at square one but would cultivate visions of going on to a better place. So perhaps, if possible, an assurance that we will be coming back to live from square one is the only stimulus that will goad us into cultivating a more humane existence for ourselves for when that time comes around to begin again at square one.


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Offlinethealienthatategod
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25733471 - 01/09/19 11:20 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

all words are lies,
told by some guy,
meaning came after,
leaning towards laughter.

he meant to say something,
but nothing he grew,
his knowledge forgotten,
lies birthing truth.

that's the whole story,
no curiosity to ask why,
a creator is something,
you tell in a lie.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee] * 1
    #25733978 - 01/09/19 03:39 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

as children we must endure the drumming, but it also gives (some of) us an opportunity to feel opposite to some of the drummed themes (values & meanings).

feeling opposed or in agreement is not unconscious, but it is concertive, i.e. you can simultaneously have many conscious thoughts (not necessarily in words but still conscious) all working together to support an attitude that is for or against some issue.

the drumming, that forms these learned attitudes, is not a crime especially drummed directives like "look both ways before you cross the street", and "don't play with a loaded gun", and "practice safe sex", but it can fail to be the right approach in every case, and eventually it can become obsolete.


accordingly we have to keep up the drumming (while there are cars, guns, & STD's), and keep refining the rhythms that are echoed in our selves and drummed by us into our kids. Meanings change, the suitability of attitudes change, and values, or the assessment of beneficial attributes change, all at different rates.


This is where a bit of wisdom can help, so what the fuck is that!?!


--------------------


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OfflineMayaRefugee
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25734304 - 01/09/19 06:36 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

MayaRefugee said:
Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?



Only as much as all life is just this.



I would say some of life not all of life, some of life is less delusional i.e. food keeps me alive, water keeps me alive, reproduction keeps the species alive, fire keeps me warm, etc.
Quote:

Buster_Brown said:
Quote:

MayaRefugee said:
My inquiry is more about getting opinions and perspectives on the whole process or human tendency toward synthesizing value and meaning, kind of along the lines of attachment and desire and the bullshit and suffering that goes along with that.




Perhaps the philosophy of 'One life to live' stems from our abhorrence of the conditions we force-feed our young...that the fundamental reality pertains to dishonesty and violence as the means of securing our comfort. Under such conditions anyone would not desire to begin again at square one but would cultivate visions of going on to a better place. So perhaps, if possible, an assurance that we will be coming back to live from square one is the only stimulus that will goad us into cultivating a more humane existence for ourselves for when that time comes around to begin again at square one.



Interesting idea, this prevailing story we are plugged into as children, where as you say dishonesty and violence are used to secure comfort, and unplugging from same is an interest of mine.
Quote:

thealienthatategod said:
all words are lies,
told by some guy,
meaning came after,
leaning towards laughter.

he meant to say something,
but nothing he grew,
his knowledge forgotten,
lies birthing truth.

that's the whole story,
no curiosity to ask why,
a creator is something,
you tell in a lie.



Cool poem!
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
as children we must endure the drumming, but it also gives (some of) us an opportunity to feel opposite to some of the drummed themes (values & meanings).

feeling opposed or in agreement is not unconscious, but it is concertive, i.e. you can simultaneously have many conscious thoughts (not necessarily in words but still conscious) all working together to support an attitude that is for or against some issue.

the drumming, that forms these learned attitudes, is not a crime especially drummed directives like "look both ways before you cross the street", and "don't play with a loaded gun", and "practice safe sex", but it can fail to be the right approach in every case, and eventually it can become obsolete.


accordingly we have to keep up the drumming (while there are cars, guns, & STD's), and keep refining the rhythms that are echoed in our selves and drummed by us into our kids. Meanings change, the suitability of attitudes change, and values, or the assessment of beneficial attributes change, all at different rates.


This is where a bit of wisdom can help, so what the fuck is that!?!



I agree some drumbeats have utility but utility is based on there being some desired outcome that the thing with utility helps you achieve. If your desired outcomes are the product of delusional meaning synthesis then the utility of a drumbeat or value of a drumbeat is something you yourself ascribe - when things have value this begins the whole pursue, protect, maintain, defend, etc. dance, there is now an attachment that causes suffering.

Thoughts?


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OfflineXUL
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25735344 - 01/10/19 08:31 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Without collective values anomie can appear. Language and religion are important factors, imo.

Forced diversity is poison.


--------------------
TRUMP 2020


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25735442 - 01/10/19 09:49 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MayaRefugee said:
...
I agree some drumbeats have utility but utility is based on there being some desired outcome that the thing with utility helps you achieve. If your desired outcomes are the product of delusional meaning synthesis then the utility of a drumbeat or value of a drumbeat is something you yourself ascribe - when things have value this begins the whole pursue, protect, maintain, defend, etc. dance, there is now an attachment that causes suffering.

Thoughts?



can you clarify what you mean by connecting attachment (that causes suffering) to "drumming" which is a metaphor for conditioning, which in itself is a metaphor or label for applied learning and memory?


attachment as viewed through mountains of hindu and buddhist doctrine encompasses a wide range of real world mechanisms.
when viewed in psychology and neurophysiology, however, this mechanism is the foundation of memory, which associates or attaches elements of experience with other elements at the same approximate time as well as elements that have similarities to other experienced elements.


all memory therefore is attachment.


the drumming is a metaphor for rote learning, getting drumed into the memory, since what is repeated sticks better.


--------------------


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OfflineMayaRefugee
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25736390 - 01/10/19 06:21 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

MayaRefugee said:
...
I agree some drumbeats have utility but utility is based on there being some desired outcome that the thing with utility helps you achieve. If your desired outcomes are the product of delusional meaning synthesis then the utility of a drumbeat or value of a drumbeat is something you yourself ascribe - when things have value this begins the whole pursue, protect, maintain, defend, etc. dance, there is now an attachment that causes suffering.

Thoughts?



can you clarify what you mean by connecting attachment (that causes suffering) to "drumming" which is a metaphor for conditioning, which in itself is a metaphor or label for applied learning and memory?


attachment as viewed through mountains of hindu and buddhist doctrine encompasses a wide range of real world mechanisms.
when viewed in psychology and neurophysiology, however, this mechanism is the foundation of memory, which associates or attaches elements of experience with other elements at the same approximate time as well as elements that have similarities to other experienced elements.


all memory therefore is attachment.


the drumming is a metaphor for rote learning, getting drumed into the memory, since what is repeated sticks better.



I see a drumbeat as a mental formation, wherever this drumbeat is acquired from i.e. imagination, the elders, deductive processes, etc. the fact it is kept and not discarded implies attachment to said idea/belief/notion/point of view and therefore meaning and value. There's infinite drumbeats that we can store and when played or evoked inspire other activity some of which leads to suffering for self and others. Drumbeats are similar to mantras in this sense e.g. "must make a million dollars, must make a million dollars", "must be successful, must be successful", etc.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25736938 - 01/10/19 10:27 PM (2 years, 1 month ago)

you have a very very wide interpretation of drumbeat, so wide that any mental form or activity is one.

how the recollection of any of them can not be an attachment - entangled with in the rest of memory - is hard to see.

but I think you really mean to demonize some mental forms and call those attachment.

would you agree?


--------------------


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OfflineMayaRefugee
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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25737291 - 01/11/19 02:50 AM (2 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
you have a very very wide interpretation of drumbeat, so wide that any mental form or activity is one.

how the recollection of any of them can not be an attachment - entangled with in the rest of memory - is hard to see.

but I think you really mean to demonize some mental forms and call those attachment.

would you agree?




My intent wasn't to demonize anything, I'm just interested in exploring the idea of meaning and value, particularly how we as actors base our actions on or strive to have our actions reflect the meaning and value we give to certain phenomena.

Subscription to certain patterns of behaviour would be attachment, non-attachment pure randomness and possibly insanity.


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