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Meaning and Value
    #25732485 -

Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?

What lies at the core of our propensity to value certain things over others or to ascribe meaning to certain things when, if  you believe what you read, the true nature of things is undifferentiated/non-dual/made of the same stuff?

What are your thoughts on the concepts of meaning and value and their place in the human drama?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25732558 -

Given that: " Most people move through a fog of preconceptions, unconscious fantasies, Oedipal plots and ideational patterns that distorts the tiny portion of available reality they allow themselves to see(,) into a form they already know."1....I think our values are pretty much orchastrated.


1. Peter Straub

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25732648 -

Behind or deep within the orchestration is there not some form of dissonance that is being quelled by the "fog of preconceptions, unconscious fantasies, Oedipal plots and ideational patterns"?

What use is value and meaning if this dissonance doesn't exist?

What if this reason to pursue, maintain, protect, accumulate, etc. the things you have assigned value or meaning to falls away?

Is this pursue, maintain, protect, accumulate, etc. orchestration just some yoke we happily put around our necks?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25732659 -

Rather than donned happily, I think it can be shown that the yoke is drummed into us.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25732670 -

MayaRefugee said:
is there not some form of dissonance that is being quelled by the "fog of preconceptions, unconscious fantasies, Oedipal plots and ideational patterns"?




Yes, the dissonance that sparked Herod's pogrom was his own discomfort. The jealous protection of our personal comfort promotes order to that effect.

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/08/19 08:48 PM)

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25732674 -

Where do you stand on the merit, ethics, need, virtue, etc. of this drumming process?

Is there any merit in undrumming?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25732720 -

The difficulties encountered in a non-uniform pattern are their unfamiliarity. Because we are primarily creatures of habit the non-uniform tends to be shunned as our habits set in, and so the establishment and insistence on uniformity may be more pronounced in the aged.

Edited by Buster_Brown (01/08/19 09:09 PM)

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25732729 -

Basically then, in deference to the aged, the youth are proscribed.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25732746 -

“The paradox of individuation is that we best serve intimate relationship by becoming sufficiently developed in ourselves that we do not need to feed off others.” - James Hollis, The Middle Passage: From Misery to Meaning in Midlife

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25732767 -

Steve Jobs, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, etc. all overturned the value framework at play in their time with their contributions to the world hence it is possible for the elderly proscribed uniformity to be made obsolete by those walking the non-uniform.

My inquiry is more about getting opinions and perspectives on the whole process or human tendency toward synthesizing value and meaning, kind of along the lines of attachment and desire and the bullshit and suffering that goes along with that.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25733055 -

MayaRefugee said:
Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?


Only as much as all life is just this.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25733185 -

MayaRefugee said:
My inquiry is more about getting opinions and perspectives on the whole process or human tendency toward synthesizing value and meaning, kind of along the lines of attachment and desire and the bullshit and suffering that goes along with that.


Perhaps the philosophy of 'One life to live' stems from our abhorrence of the conditions we force-feed our young...that the fundamental reality pertains to dishonesty and violence as the means of securing our comfort. Under such conditions anyone would not desire to begin again at square one but would cultivate visions of going on to a better place. So perhaps, if possible, an assurance that we will be coming back to live from square one is the only stimulus that will goad us into cultivating a more humane existence for ourselves for when that time comes around to begin again at square one.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25733471 -

all words are lies,
told by some guy,
meaning came after,
leaning towards laughter.

he meant to say something,
but nothing he grew,
his knowledge forgotten,
lies birthing truth.

that's the whole story,
no curiosity to ask why,
a creator is something,
you tell in a lie.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee] * 1
    #25733978 -

as children we must endure the drumming, but it also gives (some of) us an opportunity to feel opposite to some of the drummed themes (values & meanings).

feeling opposed or in agreement is not unconscious, but it is concertive, i.e. you can simultaneously have many conscious thoughts (not necessarily in words but still conscious) all working together to support an attitude that is for or against some issue.

the drumming, that forms these learned attitudes, is not a crime especially drummed directives like "look both ways before you cross the street", and "don't play with a loaded gun", and "practice safe sex", but it can fail to be the right approach in every case, and eventually it can become obsolete.


accordingly we have to keep up the drumming (while there are cars, guns, & STD's), and keep refining the rhythms that are echoed in our selves and drummed by us into our kids. Meanings change, the suitability of attitudes change, and values, or the assessment of beneficial attributes change, all at different rates.


This is where a bit of wisdom can help, so what the fuck is that!?!


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25734304 -

Jokeshopbeard said:
MayaRefugee said:
Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?


Only as much as all life is just this.


I would say some of life not all of life, some of life is less delusional i.e. food keeps me alive, water keeps me alive, reproduction keeps the species alive, fire keeps me warm, etc.
Buster_Brown said:
MayaRefugee said:
My inquiry is more about getting opinions and perspectives on the whole process or human tendency toward synthesizing value and meaning, kind of along the lines of attachment and desire and the bullshit and suffering that goes along with that.


Perhaps the philosophy of 'One life to live' stems from our abhorrence of the conditions we force-feed our young...that the fundamental reality pertains to dishonesty and violence as the means of securing our comfort. Under such conditions anyone would not desire to begin again at square one but would cultivate visions of going on to a better place. So perhaps, if possible, an assurance that we will be coming back to live from square one is the only stimulus that will goad us into cultivating a more humane existence for ourselves for when that time comes around to begin again at square one.


Interesting idea, this prevailing story we are plugged into as children, where as you say dishonesty and violence are used to secure comfort, and unplugging from same is an interest of mine.
thealienthatategod said:
all words are lies,
told by some guy,
meaning came after,
leaning towards laughter.

he meant to say something,
but nothing he grew,
his knowledge forgotten,
lies birthing truth.

that's the whole story,
no curiosity to ask why,
a creator is something,
you tell in a lie.


Cool poem!
redgreenvines said:
as children we must endure the drumming, but it also gives (some of) us an opportunity to feel opposite to some of the drummed themes (values & meanings).

feeling opposed or in agreement is not unconscious, but it is concertive, i.e. you can simultaneously have many conscious thoughts (not necessarily in words but still conscious) all working together to support an attitude that is for or against some issue.

the drumming, that forms these learned attitudes, is not a crime especially drummed directives like "look both ways before you cross the street", and "don't play with a loaded gun", and "practice safe sex", but it can fail to be the right approach in every case, and eventually it can become obsolete.


accordingly we have to keep up the drumming (while there are cars, guns, & STD's), and keep refining the rhythms that are echoed in our selves and drummed by us into our kids. Meanings change, the suitability of attitudes change, and values, or the assessment of beneficial attributes change, all at different rates.


This is where a bit of wisdom can help, so what the fuck is that!?!


I agree some drumbeats have utility but utility is based on there being some desired outcome that the thing with utility helps you achieve. If your desired outcomes are the product of delusional meaning synthesis then the utility of a drumbeat or value of a drumbeat is something you yourself ascribe - when things have value this begins the whole pursue, protect, maintain, defend, etc. dance, there is now an attachment that causes suffering.

Thoughts?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25735344 -

Without collective values anomie can appear. Language and religion are important factors, imo.

Forced diversity is poison.


--------------------
TRUMP 2020

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25735442 -

MayaRefugee said:
...
I agree some drumbeats have utility but utility is based on there being some desired outcome that the thing with utility helps you achieve. If your desired outcomes are the product of delusional meaning synthesis then the utility of a drumbeat or value of a drumbeat is something you yourself ascribe - when things have value this begins the whole pursue, protect, maintain, defend, etc. dance, there is now an attachment that causes suffering.

Thoughts?


can you clarify what you mean by connecting attachment (that causes suffering) to "drumming" which is a metaphor for conditioning, which in itself is a metaphor or label for applied learning and memory?


attachment as viewed through mountains of hindu and buddhist doctrine encompasses a wide range of real world mechanisms.
when viewed in psychology and neurophysiology, however, this mechanism is the foundation of memory, which associates or attaches elements of experience with other elements at the same approximate time as well as elements that have similarities to other experienced elements.


all memory therefore is attachment.


the drumming is a metaphor for rote learning, getting drumed into the memory, since what is repeated sticks better.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25736390 -

redgreenvines said:
MayaRefugee said:
...
I agree some drumbeats have utility but utility is based on there being some desired outcome that the thing with utility helps you achieve. If your desired outcomes are the product of delusional meaning synthesis then the utility of a drumbeat or value of a drumbeat is something you yourself ascribe - when things have value this begins the whole pursue, protect, maintain, defend, etc. dance, there is now an attachment that causes suffering.

Thoughts?


can you clarify what you mean by connecting attachment (that causes suffering) to "drumming" which is a metaphor for conditioning, which in itself is a metaphor or label for applied learning and memory?


attachment as viewed through mountains of hindu and buddhist doctrine encompasses a wide range of real world mechanisms.
when viewed in psychology and neurophysiology, however, this mechanism is the foundation of memory, which associates or attaches elements of experience with other elements at the same approximate time as well as elements that have similarities to other experienced elements.


all memory therefore is attachment.


the drumming is a metaphor for rote learning, getting drumed into the memory, since what is repeated sticks better.


I see a drumbeat as a mental formation, wherever this drumbeat is acquired from i.e. imagination, the elders, deductive processes, etc. the fact it is kept and not discarded implies attachment to said idea/belief/notion/point of view and therefore meaning and value. There's infinite drumbeats that we can store and when played or evoked inspire other activity some of which leads to suffering for self and others. Drumbeats are similar to mantras in this sense e.g. "must make a million dollars, must make a million dollars", "must be successful, must be successful", etc.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25736938 -

you have a very very wide interpretation of drumbeat, so wide that any mental form or activity is one.

how the recollection of any of them can not be an attachment - entangled with in the rest of memory - is hard to see.

but I think you really mean to demonize some mental forms and call those attachment.

would you agree?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25737291 -

redgreenvines said:
you have a very very wide interpretation of drumbeat, so wide that any mental form or activity is one.

how the recollection of any of them can not be an attachment - entangled with in the rest of memory - is hard to see.

but I think you really mean to demonize some mental forms and call those attachment.

would you agree?


My intent wasn't to demonize anything, I'm just interested in exploring the idea of meaning and value, particularly how we as actors base our actions on or strive to have our actions reflect the meaning and value we give to certain phenomena.

Subscription to certain patterns of behaviour would be attachment, non-attachment pure randomness and possibly insanity.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25737295 -

The answer potentially lies somewhere within the very reason why you asked it, but I dont know.

The things that I decide have have meaning are as robust...or not... as the concepts that got me there.

Why ask?


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25737320 -

Because most of us are not aware of non-duality we are suffering under the assumptions of duality. Compassionate action, skillful means for the alleviation of suffering is an application of the gnosis of non-dualism which is essential Wisdom-Compassion. Think of the image of a Medicine Buddha, or of Christ as physician - not the human beings called Buddha or Christ, but Being Itself as Wisdom-Compassion and Logos being administered to those alienated from their Essential Nature by the suffering imposed by dualism, by subject-object, victim-victimizer. Alleviating suffering has intrinsic meaning since it closes the psycho-spiritual gap that is cause for human suffering, so in my life I have translated this into being a helper, a counselor, psychotherapist, and hypnotherapist. One can help others through the medium of many different activities from customer service rep to Uber driver to surgeon.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25737368 -

If you consider our true nature an empty chess board, problems don't really arise until the pieces are placed on the board, each piece with inherent meaning and value, all tools in the bringing about of a certain outcome i.e. victory, all begging for our identification.

Could not suffering be the forgetting that we are the board and not the pieces, that the pieces are a game, that it should not be taken seriously, that there is no pressure to win, that there is nothing really to lose, that the game was something we made up, something we gave value to, something without the value that we gave it?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee] * 1
    #25737376 -

Used the board as a discussion point the other day.
Thinking about the pieces perspectives.
What's motivating structured play. 
If left to their own directives.

With no sense of purpose, no guiding hand.
The games would be pointless and ultimately bland.
Given a frame work to operate in, willingly manipulated.
No promise of conclusion means effort capitulated.

So on they move, pretending to be in control.
Sold on the promise of an ultimate goal.
Now perhaps we aren't all that different.
Both we and the pieces deliberately ignorant.

As we look down on the board as only a player may.
We see what really defines the stakes at play.
Seeing that it's nothing without the possibility of the killer blow.
A winner and a loser and some way to know.

It then went on to a change in perspectives.
Imagine the pieces were to see the hands directives.
If both the player and the played were to look in the eye.
Would it mean the game would die.

To see the rules scribbled on some note.
To see the scotch and the drunkards who wrote.
To understand that this life or death struggle.
Was really just a repetitive black and white bubble.

It may be best and necessary for dimensions to exist.
Because we like the game and will not desist.
If the pieces knew they might not come back.
And with still more games to play, that would be crap.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: pineninja]
    #25737421 -

Intriguing, provocative....did you just write that?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: pineninja]
    #25737428 -

MayaRefugee said:
Could not suffering be the forgetting that we are the board and not the pieces, that the pieces are a game, that it should not be taken seriously, that there is no pressure to win, that there is nothing really to lose, that the game was something we made up, something we gave value to, something without the value that we gave it?


imo nothing has inherent value, but that does not make it any less real. I agree with you in a way, but why ask the question? You kinda already know the answer, nothing/everything matters if you believe it. I do believe the values we hold are a way of achieving a personal objective.


pineninja said:
Used the board as a discussion point the other day.
Thinking about the pieces perspectives.
What's motivating structured play. 
If left to their own directives.

With no sense of purpose, no guiding hand.
The games would be pointless and ultimately bland.
Given a frame work to operate in, willingly manipulated.
No promise of conclusion means effort capitulated.

So on they move, pretending to be in control.
Sold on the promise of an ultimate goal.
Now perhaps we aren't all that different.
Both we and the pieces deliberately ignorant.

As we look down on the board as only a player may.
We see what really defines the stakes at play.
Seeing that it's nothing without the possibility of the killer blow.
A winner and a loser and some way to know.

It then went on to a change in perspectives.
Imagine the pieces were to see the hands directives.
If both the player and the played were to look in the eye.
Would it mean the game would die.

To see the rules scribbled on some note.
To see the scotch and the drunkards who wrote.
To understand that this life or death struggle.
Was really just a repetitive black and white bubble.

It may be best and necessary for dimensions to exist.
Because we like the game and will not desist.
If the pieces knew they might not come back.
And with still more games to play, that would be crap.


Very beautiful, thanks for sharing


--------------------
Ik hou van je

While you're still sleeping the saints are still weepin' cause things you call dead haven't yet had the chance to be born. -Scatman John

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25738271 -

MayaRefugee said:
I'm just interested in exploring the idea of meaning and value, particularly how we as actors base our actions on or strive to have our actions reflect the meaning and value we give to certain phenomena.


Without deciding what is important to me (values) I have no basis for making decisions.

For me, my decisions about how I want to live create my life and all it encompasses.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25738553 -

Thankyou, no it's something I had thought and written beforehand.
Your previous post would've fit in well with the conversation that inspired it.


Thankyou also Xeny.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: pineninja]
    #25738756 -

Xeny, I think I'm asking the question due to experiences I've had with people where the meanings and values someone has mattered more than the thing that could have those meanings and values. This and watching how many hours of drama and suffering this all caused. I guess I have an interest in the dynamics of prejudice at the moment.

RJ Tubs, totally agree, informing decisions via the establishment of principles is wise but how sure of our principles should we be? Some stick to their principles so vehemently they'll destroy a rain forest, blow people up, commit suicide, etc.

Pineninja, your poem is almost a mirror image of that post. Uncanny.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25738976 -

You are free to take your own life as non-seriously as you like if it's all a Lila Rasa, including the pain and suffering. I do not, nor can I ever know if your perspective is so supermundane that you walk on the turbulent waters of existence whilst everyone else flounders, sinks and drowns unless they have the mundane ability to swim. :shrug: I watched with great empathy a lonely man approach two dolled up women on a singles happy hour. They were already whispering when he made his courageous approach but they rejected him summarily. His expression and body language screamed in pain and humiliation as he turned around, going down in flames. I was recently divorced then but I was just there to observe that dance,including  the bar-girls who also took advantage of the occasion to lure obese gray haired businessmen. By that time I knew what the lonely guy was feeling even though I myself had learned not to put all my emotional eggs in one basket. I could handle rejection much better at that point after having been lied to, stolen from and cheated on by a wife of 13 years, 1/3 of my life at that time. There was little I could've done to help that guy although my heart went out to him. Attempting to cheer him up was not what he would've wanted and he would probably have been embarrassed by my observation.

There is no point in trying to intellectualize away pain, suffering, cruelty. These things are some of the 'givens of existence into which we are 'thrown' that existentialism refers to. The human condition, contrary to Jean-Jacques Rousseau's tabula rasa, is not a blank slate. We all arrive with baggage, genetic/karmic/constitutional givens of existence. WE are not the creators of this milieu we find ourselves in. We are not God, we are not even a "true nature." There is no personalizing these absolutes. So long as you and I are having a discussion, I am I and you are you (or I and Thou as Martin Buber put it). This 'I' and 'we' are temporal, dependent entities with form, and it 'makes sense,' which is to say, is meaningful (to me) to maintain the integrity of this changing form to the best of my ability. This includes my psycho-physico-spiritual self but it extends to my immediate environment of house and yard. These, like clothes, are extensions of self, all of which serve a greater purpose. I am not here to accrue wealth, nor to gorge myself on food or sex or games of chance, fame, or glory. If anything, I am here to play The Master Game a la Robert de Ropp. A goodly portion of that singularly worthy game, is the cultivation of compassion because we know more about these givens of existence than the average bear. We see more of the vectors that shape human destiny, we have more AHA! moments than others and we see the kinds of mud and mire the majority of inferior game-players are wallowing in.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25739021 -

I resonate with the points you make, I would add that there is no point intellectualizing more pain and suffering i.e. birthing games that cause more suffering then there is already pre-games.

I haven't read The Master Game so can't comment on that.

Before things have meaning and value all is equal yeah? The consequences of the meaning and value those girls gave to the dude lead to suffering yeah?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25739263 -

MayaRefugee said:
RJ Tubs, totally agree, informing decisions via the establishment of principles is wise but how sure of our principles should we be?


Different things are important to different people. Serial rapists, drunkards, gluttons, and mass murders all have values. 

I can be sure of what is important to me, but beyond that, I'm clueless.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25739391 -

True, you raise a good point, do they have values or a lack in their valuation for things like autonomy, justice, beneficence, and non-maleficence?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25739628 -

MayaRefugee said:
Xeny, I think I'm asking the question due to experiences I've had with people where the meanings and values someone has mattered more than the thing that could have those meanings and values. This and watching how many hours of drama and suffering this all caused. I guess I have an interest in the dynamics of prejudice at the moment.


Yea, can be destructive and alot of people search for meaning in a very obsessive way, but I don't think there's a real alternative. Do you believe there's anyone out there who cares about nothing? Where nothing has meaning? We might say that sometimes in times of desperation but is it ever really true?


--------------------
Ik hou van je

While you're still sleeping the saints are still weepin' cause things you call dead haven't yet had the chance to be born. -Scatman John

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #25739638 -

RJ Tubs 202 said:
MayaRefugee said:
RJ Tubs, totally agree, informing decisions via the establishment of principles is wise but how sure of our principles should we be?


Different things are important to different people. Serial rapists, drunkards, gluttons, and mass murders all have values. 

I can be sure of what is important to me, but beyond that, I'm clueless.


this gives us an opportunity to differentiate between compulsions and values, as many of the criminal mind set are not using pre-frontal cortical considerations in their decision process when they indulge their reflex mental inclinations as Serial rapists, drunkards, gluttons, and mass murderers


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25740560 -

Xeny, I don't know if it's possible to not care about anything but pondering it makes me think of the absurdists point of view, caring or still having a reason to live despite knowing things don't mean shit fundamentally, things being more about your attitude to meaninglessness than your response or reaction to perceived or fabricated meaning and value. Camus believed the only philosophy that mattered or the only philosophy there is was the one you held in reference to suicide i.e. what stops you from killing yourself once you realise there is no meaning to anything. I would say your philosophy in regard to harming others should matter to someone in this position as well i.e. other people should mean enough to you to not do them harm, respect there right to believe what they want.

Redgreenvines, but don't they possess a valuation of the person they are violating whereby that act is justified? Would instinct be the same as a compulsion in the way you are using it?

EDIT: Where THEY think that act is justified.

Edited by MayaRefugee (01/12/19 05:51 PM)

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25740814 -

instinct or intuition is a kind of thinking, the mind ruminates and the idea emerges, against the backdrop of one's life experience. the backdrop is the internal consensus.

with compulsion, habit kicks in for a reaction without any internal consensus - so no prefrontal governance.

with compulsion a person is actually denying their own experience has any value. only the full routine matters. It matters in a way that is outside of values, it is mechanical


instinct and intuition are not mechanical.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25740848 -

redgreenvines said:
this gives us an opportunity to differentiate between compulsions and values, as many of the criminal mind set are not using pre-frontal cortical considerations in their decision process when they indulge their reflex mental inclinations as Serial rapists, drunkards, gluttons, and mass murderers


We'd be ignoring people's humanity and agency to dismiss their behaviors as "reflex mental inclinations". People generally behave in congruence with their quality world (what they believe to be important = values) I have a friend who has lung cancer and she still smokes. Why? Because smoking is important to her. She sees benefits in smoking. The benefits she perceives outweighs other factors. She knows she could stop, but has decided not to.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25740891 -

So one is monkey seeing monkey doing the other has some deliberation?

Yet cannot deliberated action become compulsive e.g. musicians that can play without thinking, sportsman that react with the right move instinctively, etc?

Would not the choice to develop that deliberated act over others imply that it was the output of a meaning and value schema i.e. this song is good, this is the best technique for playing a D minor, winning the championship is good, these movements are most effective at scoring a goal, etc?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25740911 -

RJ Tubs 202 said:
redgreenvines said:
this gives us an opportunity to differentiate between compulsions and values, as many of the criminal mind set are not using pre-frontal cortical considerations in their decision process when they indulge their reflex mental inclinations as Serial rapists, drunkards, gluttons, and mass murderers


We'd be ignoring people's humanity and agency to dismiss their behaviors as "reflex mental inclinations". People generally behave in congruence with their quality world (what they believe to be important = values) I have a friend who has lung cancer and she still smokes. Why? Because smoking is important to her. She sees benefits in smoking. The benefits she perceives outweighs other factors. She knows she could stop, but has decided not to.


Excellent point. To not be in a state of thought free contemplation 24/7, I believe, has with it the implicit need for there to be some measurement of one act being more meaningful or valuable than another. The pleasure of smoking is more valuable to your friend then the extension of life quitting might provide. Her choice to make yet people will point the finger.

If all meaning and value is an excercise in delusion why do people take it so seriously? Why do so few people respect peoples right to believe what they want to believe, value what they want to value? If what you do and what you believe don't hurt anybody shouldn't that be the end of the discussion?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25741145 -

People are always searching for meaning.. but how can we have meaning without evaluation of the value of meaning.. protests are true in time.. you are free and are litterally creating this moment..

Random corporation is true!

Interesting dialogue?


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741155 -

BrendanFlock said:
People are always searching for meaning.. but how can we have meaning without evaluation of the value of meaning.. protests are true in time.. you are free and are litterally creating this moment..

Random corporation is true!

Interesting dialogue?


Yes it's interesting.

If all the world is a stage and we are but merely players, some players:

Heal other players.
Make other players think they need things they don't really need.
Amuse other players.
Use other players in their wealth building enterprises.
Sell teachings to other players.
Trade resources with other players.
Compete with other players.
Violate other players.
Profit off of other players.
Protect other players.
Slaughter other players.

What each player does is derivative of what they give meaning and value to. If nothing has meaning and value the play stops by my reckoning. if everything has equal value what becomes of the play?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25741169 -

Nihilism itself is a protest about meaning..

Nihilists think that everythimg means nothing or things lack meaning..

But the first assumption itself is a relation in time..

Is awareness meaning necesarily?


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741177 -

BrendanFlock said:
Nihilism itself is a protest about meaning..

Nihilists think that everythimg means nothing or things lack meaning..

But the first assumption itself is a relation in time..

Is awareness meaning necesarily?


I'm starting to think so, I'm thinking the literature on the Buddhist jhana's is the best description of the place from which this would be seen most evidently. A place from which all games are seen for their emptiness, the play seen for it's meaninglessness, etc. A place that if witnessed I presume would change many peoples approach to the play.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25741196 -

There is a categorical imperative which is fulfilled.. via binah.. which is an ever forsaken fortress..calculations are fortifications..


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741197 -

Obletives.. Xenia Aunotop.. previously owned luggage.. release from inside and out!.. neither a pear nor peril..!


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741200 -

You have to realize the greatness of the self to continue!

Archetypes are hidden in the architecture of existence.. which is nothing as a type of slack!


--------------------
Thank you for your Time...

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25741206 -

Righto Dude, that's too weird for me. I hope it means something to you.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25741437 -

compulsive posting


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee] * 1
    #25741865 -

MayaRefugee said:
Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?

What lies at the core of our propensity to value certain things over others or to ascribe meaning to certain things when, if  you believe what you read, the true nature of things is undifferentiated/non-dual/made of the same stuff?

What are your thoughts on the concepts of meaning and value and their place in the human drama?


These questions only arise when one, so to speak, "steps outside of oneself".

(While enjoying a meal or "having sex" these questions are not normally considered. Or in any situation where attention is immersed in experiencing fully).

It is usually only when the body's biological needs are quiescent, that the mind indulges in the illusion that it can step outside of living, and it then imagines it possesses something called "its life", and that this has a narrative that it perceives accurately, and that what possesses all this, is a self, that is separate from the rest of reality.
Then the mind, conveniently forgets it has made all these very questionable assumptions, and generates emotional states based on the direction of these thoughts, and all this is taken to be reality. To top all this off with imagining one is searching for truth, and that this truth can be encapsulated in "meaning", is a wonderful exercise in "self hypnosis" ! ! !

And even more ironic and outrageous these "meanings" are then collected into beliefs and so called "faith" and codified into religions to which folks imagine they belong, and then these folks & religions argue about the beliefs and often go to war.

Makes the world go round so to speak.

The wise manage to maintain a sense of humor, which is precisely what searching for meaning and value lacks.

An aspect of the so called cosmic joke is that it is too obvious to be considered seriously by most ! ! !

Edited by laughingdog (01/13/19 01:00 PM)

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #25742270 -

laughingdog said:
MayaRefugee said:
Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?

What lies at the core of our propensity to value certain things over others or to ascribe meaning to certain things when, if  you believe what you read, the true nature of things is undifferentiated/non-dual/made of the same stuff?

What are your thoughts on the concepts of meaning and value and their place in the human drama?


These questions only arise when one, so to speak, "steps outside of oneself".

(While enjoying a meal or "having sex" these questions are not normally considered. Or in any situation where attention is immersed in experiencing fully).

It is usually only when the body's biological needs are quiescent, that the mind indulges in the illusion that it can step outside of living, and it then imagines it possesses something called "its life", and that this has a narrative that it perceives accurately, and that what possesses all this, is a self, that is separate from the rest of reality.
Then the mind, conveniently forgets it has made all these very questionable assumptions, and generates emotional states based on the direction of these thoughts, and all this is taken to be reality. To top all this off with imagining one is searching for truth, and that this truth can be encapsulated in "meaning", is a wonderful exercise in "self hypnosis" ! ! !

And even more ironic and outrageous these "meanings" are then collected into beliefs and so called "faith" and codified into religions to which folks imagine they belong, and then these folks & religions argue about the beliefs and often go to war.

Makes the world go round so to speak.

The wise manage to maintain a sense of humor, which is precisely what searching for meaning and value lacks.

An aspect of the so called cosmic joke is that it is too obvious to be considered seriously by most ! ! !


Your post made me think of the song All Along The Watchtower.

There must be some kind of way outta here
Said the joker to the thief
There's too much confusion
I can't get no relief
Business men, they drink my wine
Plowman dig my earth
None were level on the mind
Nobody up at his word
Hey, hey
No reason to get excited
The thief he kindly spoke
There are many here among us
Who feel that life is but a joke
But, uh, but you and I, we've been through that
And this is not our fate
So let us stop talkin' falsely now
The hour's getting late, hey
All along the watchtower
Princes kept the view
While all the women came and went
Barefoot servants, too
Outside in the cold distance
A wildcat did growl
Two riders were approaching
And the wind began to howl

I agree with what you say, from the watchtower it's inevitable that observations will be made and thus criticisms formed of how things are done by those never having had experience in the watchtower.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25743420 -

Frankly I never understood the song,
it seems to play with sounding profound,
and being a mix of ambiguity and obscurity,
(so the intent almost seems to be a trap,
for those who think Dylan has a more profound truth than they do).
And the mood is certainly not pleasant, and seems quite dark.

I wouldn't say life is a joke,
but certainly taking the self as seriously as most do, leads,
both to suffering and misperception of reality.

And reality is paradoxical, which again, seems to be a sort of 'joke',
we usually miss.
One example is that having children, which the average person & families consider a blessing, is actually to condemn another being to both suffering and death.
Perhaps I am as dark as Dylan, was here?

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: laughingdog]
    #25743454 -

it was a very stoned experience a long time ago, and it sounded absolutely excellent when he sang it.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25743485 -

yes it sounded good
and it was/ is definitely poetic

but is its virtue in being like a rorschach test,
or in actually having something to say?
and if so what?
and do folks agree on what that what is?

that last sentence was fun!

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25743821 -

MayaRefugee said:
Is the attribution of meaning and value an exercise in delusion?

What lies at the core of our propensity to value certain things over others or to ascribe meaning to certain things when, if  you believe what you read, the true nature of things is undifferentiated/non-dual/made of the same stuff?

What are your thoughts on the concepts of meaning and value and their place in the human drama?


If one recognizes meaning is the same as purpose, it becomes obvious where the value lies.

Edited by BlueCoyote (01/14/19 03:07 PM)

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: laughingdog]
    #25743833 -

laughingdog said:
Frankly I never understood the song,
it seems to play with sounding profound,
and being a mix of ambiguity and obscurity,
(so the intent almost seems to be a trap,
for those who think Dylan has a more profound truth than they do).
And the mood is certainly not pleasant, and seems quite dark.

I wouldn't say life is a joke,
but certainly taking the self as seriously as most do, leads,
both to suffering and misperception of reality.

And reality is paradoxical, which again, seems to be a sort of 'joke',
we usually miss.
One example is that having children, which the average person & families consider a blessing, is actually to condemn another being to both suffering and death.
Perhaps I am as dark as Dylan, was here?


Think of the time it was written.
There was a movement.

Once you see past the screen you can go a couple of ways.

A lot of souls confused and coming to harmful conclusions.
Let us not talk falsely now.

The lyrics really sum up alot of the discourse here on the shroomery.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: pineninja]
    #25744005 -

To me the songs always seemed like an observation of the world from the point of view of poets, seers, artists, sages, etc. He talks about the activities of the world, the prevalence of concern over predatory threat (our animal nature still active to some extent, fears, security, bodily threats, etc.), what value certain occupations have to him, what attitudes are at play within the world. It's like a call for others to transcend it all and see it from the watchtower where he's lonely and confused. Almost as though the meanings and values active in the world have him confused, objectionable and without relief. My take on the joker and thief part is that jokers give laughter, thieves take from people - these seem like the two possibilities he sees for being in the world, almost in a comedy tragedy type dichotomy e.g. take money, take a wage, take up peoples time, take other peoples opportunities, etc. or give relief.

Edited by MayaRefugee (01/14/19 04:25 PM)

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25744240 -

...Well I think already we see, from the various posts, that it is so vague and suggestive that it is indeed like a Rorschach test.
....What is clever is that he hooks us into suspecting a deep meaning is hidden and about to be revealed, unlike Magritte's painting "This is not a pipe", which calls into question searching for hidden meanings, perhaps like Zen.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=this+is+not+a+pipe+painting&t=h_&iax=images&ia=images

The content, of the song is surprisingly short and simple----basically the outline is like this:

Oddly it starts with the joker who feels trapped
and complains

The thief at first seems to play the role of rescuer,
saying that: 'life is a joke'
(i.e. don’t take it all so seriously)
but then takes away this source of solace

but then immediately refers to the fact that we must all die
( with the effect again of making the seriousness of life a sort of a joke, which he has just denied it is )

after that a desolate landscape is presented with lots of characters (6) and no real action, only a vague  desolate future is suggested with the rhyme ‘growl and howl’

And watchtowers that are found in prisons, along borders, military installations, and perhaps in Kafka novels---again a very ominous reference----and he is Jewish (Bob Zimmerman) and they also occurred in the Nazi concentration camps. And the wind is a previous symbol or element in his repertoire, that suggests in that context, that meaning is not hidden.

---------------------
Finally
So adding to the ambiguity a reversal of roles occurs. The joker who 'should' be the wild card and free is the one who is trapped, and the thief who must curtail his freedom to hide from the law is the one who is calm and undisturbed.
-----------------
So like a disturbing dream, it has a haunting quality, but there is nothing that is tangible....

So if I had to ascribe a meaning, it would seem, to me, it suggests:
1) we all have a tendency to complain
2) we are mortal so its a waste of time (to complain) & we better grow up
3) likewise a philosophy that says either that "life is a joke"
or that "life is not a joke" is irrelevant as in either case we are
responsible for our actions
and will die anyway

thus it is a very sobering song and therefore couched in poetic obscuring terms,
to slip the message past the conscious mind,
but he tells us, in a sense he has no choice, but to create it, as he is a poet of truth.

this is of course only the result of my taking the
Rorschach test.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: laughingdog]
    #25744462 -

Imagine a watcher of the world taking stock, a watcher and a creator, he imagines himself up on the walls of the city or country he finds himself in, the city of existence. He spies a businessman and knows despite his insipid occupation he needs him to buy his wine i.e. music, he sees the ploughman and frames him as someone that digs his earth. Outside the walls are animals on the hunt, wildcats possibly, they scare him and this fear never relents. He's seen so much of all this from up there that nothing really excites him anymore and getting excited usually just leads to trouble plus he knows that cool heads prevail when you're fighting for a cause. He thinks to himself how the problems within these walls aren't something to joke about, he used to think that but doesn't anymore because if you're going to create things like jokes or heists than with a little extra effort you could create things that change the world so why joke about things, why hurt the world coming up with schemes - that's time wasted. Looking down he sees that no-one is really honest with each other, it's all just commerce and sexual gratification. He thinks to himself how no-one is on his wavelength and nobody gets what he says anyway so what does it matter if he speaks about this conundrum of his as though someone else is having it. His mind shifts to the struggle he has seeing himself as a fool, playing the fool, acting the fool and being honest, earning an honest living - decides he is a joker and somewhat a thief - attributes these qualities to someone else in his notebook. Still on the wall he considers how in the castle the princes are running things inside the walls, and how his life "down there" was mainly just a coming and going of women. The now rich Dylan feels a pang of guilt having let people do things for him he could have done himself just because he had the money to pay someone else, he refers to them as "barefoot servants" in his notebook, still, up here on the wall. He feels his back-side become numb and decides to get up and leave, refers to this moment as two riders approaching as ones response to this is one of getting up to investigate, much like what he is doing now. He is annoyed by what he has observed on this evening and has a hankering for referring to the existential climate as wind hence describes the current state of his wind as howling. As he climbs down the wall he thinks to himself "There must be some kind of way out of here?" in detest of what he has seen on this evening, on the walls of the city of existence.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25744490 -

I am the man and i am the joker.
The system is the thief.
Realising is there for those who look.
The system is a man.

Funny how our individual interpretations take us to our own points of fundamentally flawed surety.

When trying to externalise the ills of the world you have most likely looked past your own indescretions.

****

Too dehumanize a construct.
Is to lose sight of a self.
Untimely bad conduct.
A connectedness shelved.

Reflections of a condition.
Experienced by all.
A communal direction.
Assumptions to fall.

To find comfort, or not, though.
When the complex becomes simple.
Intrinsic part of us, so.
Can you blame a star for its twinkle.

Spectre of powers.
Seen not by the eye.
Evil mind built towers.
Just some every day guy.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: pineninja]
    #25744549 -

Were you in the watchtower when you wrote that one? It's cool, well done.

Fundamentally flawed surety is the only kind of surety! :crazy2:

Yes, I agree I've made discretions but there has to be some kind of way out of here, this place where stars are blamed for there twinkle.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: MayaRefugee]
    #25744574 -

I've been in many places.
Some for too long.

Thanks.


--------------------
Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: Meaning and Value [Re: pineninja] * 1
    #25745150 -

the interpretations are many:
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=all+along+the+watchtower%2C+meaning&t=h_&ia=web
and
https://www.lyricinterpretations.com/bob-dylan/all-along-the-watchtower

so this subject might well fit in the “ Subjective proof vs objective proof.. “ thread

Bob who wrote this song
is the same guy who said
"in the instant that I preached
I became my own worst enemy"
(or something very close to that)
thus as a poet of truth
perhaps he felt in
a very difficult spot.
Thus he resorts
to ambiguity;
So he can put the burden of knowing truth
back on the listener.

at this point in time
the protest songs
against the Vietnam war had already been sung

Gates of Eden had been sung:
“And the princess and the prince discuss what's real and what is not
It doesn't matter inside the gates of Eden”
and
“At dawn my lover comes to me and tells me of her dreams
With no attempts to shovel the glimpse into the ditch of what each one means
At times I think there are no words but these to tell what's true
And there are no truths outside the gates of Eden”

So again
as a sensitive & intelligent poet of truth,
it seems to me, he found himself in
a very difficult spot.
What can one say after that?
and
If one knew what to say;
how would one say/sing it?

So it strikes me as him taking a breather,
and being in an existentialist sort of mood,
And shifting the problem to the listener.

A wise but sneaky move, perhaps.

Of course, later he himself
who also said:
“it’s only peoples games you have to dodge”,
and was very concerned with personal freedom,
became a serious Christian for some years.

One can only wonder,
about his wonder,
when he considered the irony,
after recovering.

Edited by laughingdog (01/15/19 09:31 AM)

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