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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25519771 -

Quote:
I think that the math is incomplete at best, and that each one of us is both the matrix and the jealous god.


i don't

Quote:
the meme's are projections and guestimates extrapolated from language and linguistic evolution patterns.



yes, i know, i have already explained this in another thread- i thought you saw it.

https://www.minds.com/blog/view/890799080258433024
"somewhere in the integument of levels there festers a disruption, causing the inversion of levels through 'trigonal horizontality' in the reverse; the Iconic One has become language, memetics, and totemics, split into chaos out of the Void, the Acausal realm gave birth to the demonic undercurrents of the architectonic realm, stardust ensues into our individuated Personality, denigrating it into the forms of multiplicity.

The levels of the:

1: Individual/Chaos/Conceptual

2: Memetic/Language/Iconic

3: Demonic/Architectonic/Preliminal"

just saying, language and memes are intrinsically connected. doesn't change the presentation though.

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25520293 -

is that your math?


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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25520696 -

Thread's a bit hard to follow, but money seems like a prime example of what you are talking about. It exists through collective faith, and by virtue of it's imaginary value can move resources without making contact with that which it moves. It can make mountains of concrete and stone, and enough of it has the power to wipe millennium old cities from existence.

Am I on the right track to understanding what you're getting at or on another topic?

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25521795 -

i think the topic is pretty open ended. your example is great! a great example. yes, money is a good example about the use of memetic advantage. it's easy to maneuver money in order to gain advantage, too; not just as a status symbol, but as a means to coerce, of course.

there a many examples. like someone using their clout to cover-up a crime that one has committed, for one....

redgreenvines said:
is that your math?


*mathesis

Edited by akira_akuma (10/08/18 05:46 PM)

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25522031 -

if you can get away with it


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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25522659 -

Quote:
if you can get away with it


and?

look, i said what i said and what i said was clear- why continue to beat around the bush about what you're trying to say? clearly, you are not saying it.

Quote:
Mathesis-

(now rare) Mental calculation or discipline; science, especially mathematical learning.
The science of establishing a systematic order for things.


Edited by akira_akuma (10/09/18 01:42 PM)

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25523650 -

akira_akuma said:
a systematic order for things.


Can 'Order' be 'All Encompassing' if only it's progenitor understands it -OR- Must a theory be reducible to layman's terms upon evidence of apparent bafflement -OR- Does technical terminology always suffice in the establishment of a principle?

With that in mind I request an alternative description of your theory of memetic advantage.

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: Buster_Brown] * 1
    #25523896 -

jargon (bullshit) baffles brains, and the findings of both science and mathematics can be adapted to explain distortions of reality (that are only clear to the fabulist), provided that nobody looks too closely.

if the fabulist is charismatic, then he can sell a ton of snake oil.


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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25523927 -

redgreenvines said:
jargon (bullshit) baffles brains, and the findings of both science and mathematics can be adapted to explain distortions of reality (that are only clear to the fabulist), provided that nobody looks too closely.

if the fabulist is charismatic, then he can sell a ton of snake oil.


I assume by this that you equate "mystical mathematics" with "jargon (bullshit)" and that you don't have the patience to see what the OP can produce in the way of clarification.

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25524019 -

Memes derive from a neologism coined by Richard Dawkins in the 70's. Dawkins initially defined meme as a noun that "conveys the idea of a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation". Dawkins does understand a lot about evolution, so I am a bit perturbed that he pushed the term meme out there.

This is ok, to an extent, but the effort made to analogize memes with genes, DNA and evolution, I think, is in itself an effort to use imitation as the scientific method. I don't think it holds together, except as a kind of intellectual matching game. (these games can be really important, but this one is only fun. All very good while fleshing out chapters in a book for the average person.


Imitation belongs profoundly in basic human (and animal) behavior and in the pseudoscience of Shamanic lore, such as in magically assuming that plant shapes which mimic the body are useful for healing that part of the body etc. This does not suggest the kind of atomic unit of behavior and imitation that is presumed.


Mimicry, matching, identification, are essential and primary mental activities.


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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25524430 -

I am reading up more about Dawkins and I find it quite agreeable, overall, especially his views on education being kept free of religion and creationism, and that politicians should at least have some understanding of life, such as through biology.

Dawkins has turned his back on memetics. I think at this point in our science there is not much to support it.


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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25524490 -

Quote:
Can 'Order' be 'All Encompassing' if only it's progenitor understands it -OR- Must a theory be reducible to layman's terms upon evidence of apparent bafflement -OR- Does technical terminology always suffice in the establishment of a principle?

With that in mind I request an alternative description of your theory of memetic advantage.


see George Lakoff's Conceptual Metaphor Theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_metaphor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Lakoff

within the realm of epistemology, nothing is really certain, so you'd have to decide how you want to approach this.

Quote:
Memes derive from a neologism coined by Richard Dawkins in the 70's. Dawkins initially defined meme as a noun that "conveys the idea of a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation". Dawkins does understand a lot about evolution, so I am a bit perturbed that he pushed the term meme out there.

This is ok, to an extent, but the effort made to analogize memes with genes, DNA and evolution, I think, is in itself an effort to use imitation as the scientific method. I don't think it holds together, except as a kind of intellectual matching game. (these games can be really important, but this one is only fun. All very good while fleshing out chapters in a book for the average person.


Imitation belongs profoundly in basic human (and animal) behavior and in the pseudoscience of Shamanic lore, such as in magically assuming that plant shapes which mimic the body are useful for healing that part of the body etc. This does not suggest the kind of atomic unit of behavior and imitation that is presumed.


Mimicry, matching, identification, are essential and primary mental activities.



and we are primarily and essentially mimickers and we identify with mimicry. read the psych literature.

Quote:
I am reading up more about Dawkins and I find it quite agreeable, overall, especially his views on education being kept free of religion and creationism, and that politicians should at least have some understanding of life, such as through biology.

Dawkins has turned his back on memetics. I think at this point in our science there is not much to support it.




and yet, memetics is a more well understood and powerful force, more than ever before. proof positive findings. guess what. i know you like are like...scared, or whatever...but you're still missing the point. i'm not trying to encapsulate a worldview here, or even discuss politics. i'm here to discuss the idea of memetic advantage, that i am working on- thus i used an example to try and have some help from here to get my head around the similarities posited above.

and also, it seems the notion that one picks their specialty and one then picks their selective blinders to narrow their perspective, that is, that this notion can be applied to your attempt to stultify the discussion of memetics. there have been very few and frank critiques of gene-centered evolution, and the only conclusion is that it's phenotypic (not genetic), the effects espoused, and thus an incomplete view of evolution (for sure!), but they miss the leap into the memoragic, the factors they misapprehend, as factors in gene expression, for the misunderstanding of the qualities of derivation- something they can't explain adequately (using this memetic theory by Dawkins), because it's theoretical by induction, thus incompatible with ascertaining through a worldview that presumes itself complete in the means to the pursuit of knowledge. (i do believe Dawkins also countermanded such critique with "The Extended Phenotype".)

PS:
Quote:
In 1998, Dawkins expressed his appreciation for two books connected with the Sokal affair, Higher Superstition: The Academic Left and Its Quarrels with Science by Paul R. Gross and Norman Levitt and Intellectual Impostures by Sokal and Jean Bricmont. These books are famous for their criticism of postmodernism in US universities (namely in the departments of literary studies, anthropology, and other cultural studies).[160]


psst, Dawkins thinks postmodern progressivism is gay.

Edited by akira_akuma (10/09/18 01:50 PM)

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25524555 -

postmodern progressivism is memetic
i.e. common sense, has polluted common sources - you could say that the prevailing memes are tainted.


this is consistent with USA pressing forward with coal, god, racism, nationalism etc. all the major tainted prevailing memes that get more acceptance as common sense than they deserve due to shallow analysis, well funded religious propaganda, and poor education.


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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25524617 -

lol, the same can be said of all modernism.

you are simply making comfortable exclusions. it's so funny. and tainted.

what tabulation you just made doesn't include plenty of the things scaling off into non-importance.

Edited by akira_akuma (10/09/18 03:57 PM)

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25524654 -

what are you talking about?
tabulation?
scaling off?
comfortable exclusions?
this might be your jargon - maybe a way of setting up an argument?
it is not helping me communicate with you.

I am honestly trying to have a coherent conversation.
Maybe simplify your terms for me as if I were too stupid?


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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25524766 -

Quote:
what are you talking about?
tabulation?
scaling off?
comfortable exclusions?
this might be your jargon - maybe a way of setting up an argument?
it is not helping me communicate with you.

I am honestly trying to have a coherent conversation.
Maybe simplify your terms for me as if I were too stupid?



impossible. if you were "too stupid", you already wouldn't be able to understand what is being said. i was just talking about this- 'neo-minimalism' doesn't help anyone in understanding these issues.

and by the by, you are so pithy (and arcane) as to be obscure, yourself, sometimes. you never noticed that? cause...holy shit, if that's the case.

and what? you don't know what a tabulation is? sorry.

you tabulated "coal, nationalism, god, and racism" as a source of "tainted" "prevailing" memes (the term "prevailing" giving credence to the point i was making), "tainted" being quite the descriptor. sounds alot like what i said about "scaling off into non-importance"- now what i meant by "comfortable exclusions", is that you are using your own memes which i'd call tainted, but you would say are perfectly normative and righteous. these "comfortable exclusions" pertain to the added things "scaling off" that i mentioned that you "didn't include".


Edited by akira_akuma (10/09/18 04:59 PM)

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25524826 -

oh, well that's that then.
you have identified my inconsistencies,
can you tabulate a few of your own as exemplified in this thread?

eg uses unusual words for ordinary purposes to make posts seem more intelligent.


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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25524908 -

Quote:
oh, well that's that then.
you have identified my inconsistencies,
can you tabulate a few of your own as exemplified in this thread?

eg uses unusual words for ordinary purposes to make posts seem more intelligent.




yeah, pretty much everyone who delves into philosophy uses "big words". and you'd be right about me, if the fact was i was using "big words" intentionally to obfuscate, or like you say, "to seem" more intelligent... i'm not. i explain myself quite rationally (especially during a discursive set of ideas, or an encapsulation of an idea- even rhetorically, but then there are usually jokes involved...see? oops, tangent- one of those supposed "faults" of mine. you're allowed to think they are faults. i never said your particular manner of speaking was a fault. i think people using language inventively as entertaining, even passively, if not for the active notion of partaking in conversation or argumentation.

but yeah....no.

(see, what i did there?)

(notice i left the out an end-parenthesis? i also like Cummings.)

Edited by akira_akuma (10/09/18 05:10 PM)

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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25525129 -

word choice is significant and indicative.
mine - "inconsistencies"
yours - "faults"
we are not getting anywhere
and I did not see what you were doing, that was some game you played with someone else.


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Re: Social Judgement Theory (and my theory of Memetic Advantage) [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25525211 -

inconsistency and fault are synonymous. you're now literally resorting to splitting hairs about synonymous words.

Quote:
we are not getting anywhere


as anyone can plainly see, i was right.

Quote:
and I did not see what you were doing, that was some game you played with someone else.


jokes are difficult sometimes. you have to want to get them, otherwise, one usually becomes a heckler. oh look, now i'm mimicking your kind of whimsical speech patterns. bet you wouldn't have guessed.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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