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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Swami]
    #2532622 -

Quote:
Swami said:
As long as we understand it's a temporary variable...then why not?

Was the demonic explanantion of disease seen as temporary? No.

Did it help in the curing of the Plague or Black Death or the Pox? No.

Is the idea that life springs from some spirit force seen as a temporarary explanation? No.

Does saying that life originates from some spirit force help us to better understand or enable us to make predictions? No.

The life puzzle is not an algebraic equation where X = Y/Z and we are attempting to figure out what X is. I contend that X does not even exist. This is where I believe that most go wrong.

The thinking used to be that creating amino acids would be tantamount to creating life. A la the 1950s Urey/Miller experiemnt, amino acids = methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3), hydrogen (H2), and water (H2O) plus an energy source (electricity or lightning). This has also been discovered in action in deep ocean thermal vents.

Then it was discovered that a container or cell wall was needed. And we know that amino acids & proteins inside protected volumes will spontaneously form RNA. ("Production of RNA by ploymerase protein encapsulated within phospholipid vesicles"; A.C. Chakrabarti et al.; Journal of Molecular Evolution 39(6): 555-559; December 1994). Certain naturally-occuring and non-living fats were discovered that may act as the necessary container.

Because we are still a long way from forming a more complete understanding, magic is inserted as the major missing piece. This is the refuge of the superstitious mind.



Yes. It took a high energy source to excite the vibrational levels of those acids to create the basis origin of life.

Now if I can add my own personal theory:
As those amino acids were zapped with electricy (energy and heat) their vibrational levels dramatically risen and perhaps raising its consciousness (as I believe all matter is gradually expanding consciousness). Although, I dont believe, if it had a consciousness of its own, that it would be aware of itself just yet (until it dies and learns the ropes and evolving into a more complex mechanism of awareness).

Oh yes, if we created machines that were advanced enough to become aware of their existance, then I'm quite sure the reality we create for them would be very real in their perspective.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

Edited by psyka (04/06/04 06:19 PM)

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Hahzist]
    #2532700 -

In another step toward understanding the origin of Earth's biological molecules, two independent laboratory experiments have produced amino acids?the building blocks of proteins?by simulating conditions in icy, interstellar space. "Really rich, robust chemistry taking place in the cosmos."

That was taken from an article I read regarding another potential origin of amino acids. Click here for the full text. This then brings a speculation that life may have been brought here via asteroids. I can't recall why I posted this. It's slightly off topic, but interesting.

Amoebas and humans? Is consciousness what makes a human seem less like a machine? Is it only at a certain "level" of consciousness? Swami's description of advanced human-made machines has me bring up another question...if a robot with AI was self-aware, doesn't that mean it now has a consciousness? Is it the key to spirituality? Hmm...is the simple fact that I wonder about spirituality reason for me not to consider myself as a biological machine?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Middleman]
    #2532731 -

Quote:
Jinx said:
through practicing Awareness the Self may awaken the machine to it's true function, and the Self can then use the Awakened machine as a transformational apparatus.


What sort of practice? Meditation?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2532918 -

If you were to say that the human body very much performs mechanistic tasks. Than i will agree with you. The major function of our body is mechanical. Whether it is pre determined is a question for phiolosophy, and somethhing that doesnt belong necessarily in the realm of science. While logic may be used to understand that, i dont think that totally our minds our mechanistic. we can apply that word to a lot of different meanings :wink:. 

I dont think you should be so concerned on necessarily  how your brain tells you what it does about life or about relationships. If something is wrong than its good to take note of that! But i wouldnt give up on a relationship just cause you fear that relationships are bogus because you have some hunch that we are just a mass of biological data. Would you like life in a sterile world?

But if you are enjoying it, you can make a purpose for it... i think you are very much the controller of what is important and what is not. Therefor i kind of put that outside the whole mechanistic idea. You choose what you live by :wink:

Take art for instance... can a computer make a piece of art in the same way a human can? Does it understand the same things we understand when we make something?

A mechanism represents movement based on a certain set of parameters... The human body  is made up of trillions upon trillions of cells, each with its own function, its own nucleus. These mechanized systems come together to form the human being. Is a human being still human without a nervous system? Or is it just a shell?

You, Fill in the blanks ___ .


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What?

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Hahzist]
    #2533082 -

but what are they driven by? Certainly nothing that we can figure out.
Glycogen and oxygen is the fuel that drives cells (greatly simplified, but a reasonably well-understood and easily duplicated reaction).

They take the easy way out and assume we are nothing but non-living particles...
Huh? It is no assumption that we are made of known molecules and that without them we would never form.

Others here are making the assumption that some mystical force is necessary to complete the picture. There is no basis for this other than ignorance. I contend that the illusion is merely one of complexity.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Swami]
    #2533326 -

To think about all these particles... they all have basic functions. They exist within a certain space so to speak... underlying these particles we can make assumptions, some basic theories. But what we understand about conciousness, "what we are" is very complex :wink:.

Its hard to understand i think, im saying that personally. There is so much information that people are bombarded with! Its crazy! I agree with the point that it is much more complex than we can explain with our limited understanding of the world around us.


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What?

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2533359 -

viaggio said:
Quote:
Jinx said:

through practicing Awareness the Self may awaken the machine to it's true function, and the Self can then use the Awakened machine as a transformational apparatus.


What sort of practice? Meditation?


yeah, but also more direct methods like,
viewing one's self in the third person,
keeping a journal of vocabulary habits.
becoming aware of body posture / emotion.

there are all kinds of trix to pull on the drunken monkey,
next time you are arguing w/ someone or in the middle of an emotional outburst,
stop mid-sentence and yell "CUT! ok, that was good, but let's try it again w/ feeling."
then force yourself and others to repeat what was just said,
while being aware of the Persona's automatic and irrational emotional response.

also, try stopping yourself in the middle of a negative expression of emotion,
like complaining about your job, or whining about something someone did,
and replace it w/ a positive statement...

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Middleman]
    #2533449 -

"Glycogen and oxygen is the fuel that drives cells"

And is this what we use to attach meaning to how the chemicals in our brain are reacting  :wtf:? Nah...I doubt it

"Others here are making the assumption that some mystical force is necessary to complete the picture. There is no basis for this other than ignorance."

Being open to the possibility that there is more to life and reality as we know it, is not ignorant. In fact, the way you feel about the matter could be considered ignorant in a few thousand years  :wink:. It's not an assumption, its ideas, and thoughts. Anyone who assumes a stance on a subject that is not completely defined IS ignorant. Therefore, because of the fact that you are so certain we are only machines, and that there is absolutely no such thing as free thought, I would call you just as ignorant as anyone who completely believes that there is a God who sits and watches us from heaven.  :sun:

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2533463 -

If it is indeed just another coctail, you should make it the best cocktail that there is to drink if you know what I mean. But becareful don't let those emotions drive you stir crazy. Sometimes emotions can get in the way of even the most important of your decisions.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2534430 -

I do not belive that we are biological machines because we are not our brains, nor our bodies, nor our emotions, nor our thoughts, we are none of these but we are all of these. What i mean about this is that we are the emergent property of all these facets of our being. So we are not the mashine but the energy produced by it... just my two cents.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Hahzist]
    #2534532 -

Hahzist said:
...because of the fact that you are so certain we are only machines, and that there is absolutely no such thing as free thought...


Actually, Swami never stated either of those things. He's simply pointing out that the argument claiming there is some sort of spirit energy or soul powering the body cannot be proven.

And I'm trying to find personal justification for believing there is such a thing.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Hahzist]
    #2534684 -

Your comments are hard to follow and not at all consistent:

You: The only thing that I wonder about is how are our brains energized?

Me: "Glycogen and oxygen is the fuel that drives cells"

You: And is this what we use to attach meaning to how the chemicals in our brain are reacting ? Nah...I doubt it

Now fuel turns into meaning? I answer one question and you expect that same answer to apply to a different question? Is that logical?


What everything is all about is incomprehensible even to the greatest philosophers.
This lack of understanding is called ignorance. (see Webster)

Being open to the possibility that there is more to life and reality as we know it, is not ignorant.
This lack of understanding is now not ignorance?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Swami]
    #2535227 -

To Viaggio: Swami implies anyone who believes in a soul is ignorant. My post was just too show that the soul issue could infact be argued both ways, and that he himself could also be called ignorant. I think we all know the presence of a soul cant be proven. The freethought thing i threw at him was just to make him think. I assume he doesnt believe in that, because if there was a such thing as free thought then we wouldn't be machines. Because if free thought was what we used to attach meaning to the chemical changes in our brain, then there would be something non-biological/mechanical in us.

To Swami:
"Now fuel turns into meaning? I answer one question and you expect that same answer to apply to a different question? Is that logical?"

Sorry, I didnt really explain that too well, as it is hard to anyway. But I'm not sure if you have been reading my entire posts. I talked about how we attach meaning to everything, like the anxiety chemicals going off in our head, happy ones, and basically any sort of chemical reaction and information being passed through neurons. Meaning is attached to it all. So basically my question is what is attaching this meaning? Many say a soul, others have other opinions. By the way you describe glycogen and oxygen fuel as being the energy needed to drive our brains, I thought maybe you were implying that that is what we use to attach meaning to the things happening in our heads. So do you have any opinions on how humans do that?

"What everything is all about is incomprehensible even to the greatest philosophers.
This lack of understanding is called ignorance. (see Webster)"

This is a silly argument. As long as you are willing to admit you are just as ignorant on the subject as anyone else, I will drop this.

All I am trying to prove in my argument is that you cant come to any definite conclusions yourself. Your posts are pretty harsh. It makes people look stupid for certain beliefs. I thought I would step in and challenge your logic.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Hahzist]
    #2535280 -

It makes people look stupid for certain beliefs.

I don't make anyone look any way at all.

Stupidity is the misapplication of knowledge. Ignorance is the lack of knowledge.

We are all ignorant about the beginning of life on this planet. I freely admit this and feel no need to "fill-in" this blank spot with a mystical "explanantion"; others do, though it adds nothing to add to our understanding. This has been done in the past (see post on disease), has been proven wrong and is of no help to anyone.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Swami]
    #2535753 -

I think it's safe to speculate that we are not machines. I asked earlier if maybe it was due to the simple fact that I wonder about my existence...but this is based on the assumption that consciousness is the key to spirituality.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2535990 -

I asked earlier if maybe it was due to the simple fact that I wonder about my existence...but this is based on the assumption that consciousness is the key to spirituality.

Assuming that bacteria do not think about their existence and in accordance with your position; does this make them non-spiritual and machines?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Swami]
    #2536475 -

Assuming that bacteria do not think about their existence and in accordance with your position; does this make them non-spiritual and machines?

According to my logic, yes.  Luckily though, my logic is known to change  :smirk:

I'm fairly certain consciousness is what makes a human seem less like a machine.  But what is the definition of consciousness?  Is it something with absolute defining boundaries, or is it relative to everything in existence?  Perhaps it is relative, and that there are "levels" of consciousness in which higher levels make way for spiritual development.

But I don't know if consciousness is the key to spirituality...your description of advanced human-made machines had me wonder about a robot with AI.  If it was self-aware, doesn't that mean it now has a  consciousness?  Would it be limited?  Is a human's consciousness limited? No?  Is it because it can grow?  Then how do you measure it?

I don't actually expect any answers for these questions from anyone, but input is always appreciated.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2536564 -

how does conciousness make humans less like a machine? I think the conciousness IS the machine behind this body of ours, driving its parts to move and accomplish things... as far as levels of conciousness, Im sure they exist, but who or what can define them? yourself?......

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2536646 -

how does conciousness make humans less like a machine? I think the conciousness IS the machine behind this body of ours, driving its parts to move and accomplish things...
-Remember: you are a multi-cellular organism. These cells form groups, like tissue and muscles, which are just parts of the machine. Your mind does have some control over what the machine does... but there are limits. Humans can't fly unaided, and an attempt to do so will leave machine parts scattered on the pavement.

>as far as levels of conciousness, Im sure they exist, but who or what can define them? yourself?...
-If you define conciousness for yourself it will work for you, but there is no garuntee that it will work for everyone. Therefor, to apply to as many people as possible it should be a collaborative effort.

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Re: Are humans biological machines? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2536930 -

a human's consciousness limited? No? Is it because it can grow?

Here is the greatest example of a machine: The self-professed stance frequently encountered here and elsewhere: "I believe what I believe and no amount of facts or logic will change that." Is that evidence of growing, adaptable consciousness or machine-like fixed programming?

Here is another: addiction. One knows that this activity will lessen their health and longevity. That same person considers their time and life to be their greatest possession and yet are unable to stop the destructive behaviour. If that is not machine-like, then what is?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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