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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: sudly]
    #24650989 -

then the materialists have either lost or become so mired in gooey thought that there is no longer any clear signal.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24651024 -

Materialists are involved in emotional sentiment?


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: sudly]
    #24651059 -

Quote:
The hypothalamus comprises a relatively well developed part of the forebrain in all vertebrates, from the lowest to the highest and, indeed, shows but little change in its nuclear content and differentiation throughout an extensive comparative series which includes every level of mammalian development and even some of the submammalian vertebrates. The neopallial cortex, hwoever is commonly believe to have no representation in submammalian vertebrates, and, as is well recognised, undergoes a progressive elaboration in the evolutionary scale of the mammals until, in man, it achieves the acme of its development. This broad contrast, so apparent in comparative anatomical studies, is equally we reflected in physiological studies. On the one hand, the hypothalamus has been demonstrated to contain neural mechanisms intimiately concerned with the regulation of autonomic functions and basic metabolic activities. On the other, the cortex provides the basis for such highly intergrated functions as those concerned with sensory discimination and the voluntary control of movement. It has, of course, been long accepted that these contrasting aspects of cerebral function are by no means wholly independent of each other. But it is probably fair to say that for many years neurologists have tended to assume that, within the organisation of the cerebrum as a whole, these functions have become segregated to the extent that functional interrelationships between them occur predominantly at lower levels.

Undoubtedly one of the outstanding features of the study of brain functions during recent years is the demonstration that the interaction of corticol and hypothalamic functions is much more direct than had been supposed. For example impulses from important centres in the hypothalamus can be directly projected, through monosynaptic relays, to specific areas of the cortex, while electrical stimulation of these specific areas of the cortex can be shown to affect autonomic activities through the medium of the hypothalamus. Apart, however, from the evidence of specific relationships between hypothalamic nuclei and cortical areas, there is also evidence that the hypothalamus may profoundly influence the activity of the cortex as a whole.

ANATOMICAL RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN THE CEREBRAL CORTEX AND THE HYPOTHALAMUS
W. E. LE GROS CLARK, F.R.S. D.Sc. F.R.C.S.  MARGARET MEYER
British Medical Bulletin, Volume 6, Issue 4, 1 January 1950, Pages 341–344, https://doi.org/10.1093/oxfordjournals.bmb.a073627



There's the connection from the cortex to the hypothalamus.
And here's the connection from the hypothalamus to the pituitary gland.

Quote:
The hormones of the pituitary gland help regulate the functions of other endocrine glands. The pituitary gland has two parts—the anterior lobe and posterior lobe—that have two very separate functions. The hypothalamus sends signals to the pituitary to release or inhibit pituitary hormone production.

In some cases, the hypothalamus signals the pituitary gland to stimulate or inhibit hormone production. Essentially, the pituitary acts after the hypothalamus prompts it.

https://www.endocrineweb.com/endocrinology/overview-pituitary-gland



From here you can see the HPA Axis then sends signals to the adrenals that influence heart rate and blood pressure.


Quote:
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”



To recap.

Quote:
Sudly said: The mind as I view it begins with the process of mental synthesis in the neocortex that prompts the hypothalamus to send a signal to the pituitary gland that influences the adrenals through the HPA Axis to release stress hormones like adrenalin and cortisol to influence heart rate and blood pressure to enable the mind as a whole to perceive itself through this sensational experience, hence interoception.




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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: sudly]
    #24651085 -

the hipbone is connected to the thigh bone - with ball joint articulation, and muscles and tendons connect and move the parts when efferent neurons fire in those muscles.

except for cutting and pasting, your effort fails to connect the dots, you just list parts and add complex excepts from scholarly papers - that does not cut it.

materialists have to connect the dots and that connection has to be reproducibly demonstrable in a lab, not a vague inference diagram with no articulating parts.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24651109 -

I connected the dots and summarised them.

If you want to get into the lab methods behind demonstrating such a claim it would involve the administration of psilocybin.

At least there is a claim in the materialist world :tongue:


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: sudly]
    #24651134 -

so you propose we have your mushroom experience in order to believe what is supposed to be scientific.

that's kinda classic for cookoo


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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24651237 -

No, that's rather simplistic.

It would more so be about the effects of psilocybin on specific regions of the nervous system such as the sympathetic nerves and it would involve methods like sympathetic microneurography and comparisons of activity between a control group and a group with psilocybin administered. That's what lab mice are for and though the ethical and legal constrains seem a great hurdle there is some effort for the recognition of the importance of such studies with legalisation likely to be on the ballot in California in 2018.   

Quote:
The sympathetic nervous system plays important roles in the beat-to-beat control of blood pressure, the control of blood flow through various organs and the maintenance of core temperature through thermoregulatory processes. The development of microneurography, in which nerve activity can be recorded directly from intraneural microelectrodes inserted percutaneously into a peripheral nerve in awake human subjects, has provided a wealth of information on the control of sympathetic outflow to muscle and skin. Although not intended to be diagnostic, recordings of muscle sympathetic nerve activity (MSNA) and skin sympathetic nerve activity (SSNA) in different disease states have increased our understanding of the operation of the sympathetic nervous system. And while quantification of sympathetic nerve activity is still largely limited to measures of burst frequency (bursts/minute) and burst incidence (bursts/100 heart beats), the development of single-unit recordings of MSNA and SSNA have provided more detailed information on how the sympathetic nervous system grades its output. This chapter reviews the development of sympathetic microneurography and its application in health and disease.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24095138



Even so there's no real need because there's already quite a substantial amount of work already done on what psilocybin does to the body and how it effects the nervous system.

etc, etc, etc.

Quote:
“Characteristic autonomic effects of the neurovegetative system that were notable for the whole animal excitatory syndrome caused by the central stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system.”

doczz.net/doc/338366/the-pharmacology-of-psilocybin
http://www.maps.org/research-archive/w3pb/2002/2002_Passie_22704_1.pdf



Quote:
Behavioural effects are dependent on dose and the individual reaction and sensitivity to psilocybin, previous experiences and the setting. The major effects are related to the central nervous system, but there are also some sympathomimetic effects.

Psilocin mainly interacts with 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A and 5-HT2C receptor subtypes: it is a mixed receptor agonist. In contrast to LSD, psilocin does not have an effect on the dopamine receptor. Tryptamines and phenethylamine hallucinogens both have a relatively high affinity for serotonin 5-HT2 receptors, but they differ in their affinity for other subtypes of serotonin receptors.

EMCDDA | Hallucinogenic mushrooms profile (chemistry, effects, other names (magic mushrooms, shrooms…), origin, mode of use, other names, medical use, control status). (2015). Emcdda.europa.eu. Retrieved 12 April 2017, from http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-profiles/mushrooms


 

Quote:
Psilocin has a high affinity for the 5-HT2A serotonin receptor in the brain, where it mimics the effects of serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine, or 5-HT). Psilocin binds less tightly to other serotonergic receptors 5-HT1A, 5-HT1D, and 5-HT2C.

European Molecular Biology Laboratory, chebi:8614 psilocybin. (2014). Myhits.isb-sib.ch. Retrieved 12 April 2017, from http://myhits.isb-sib.ch/cgi-bin/view_cla_entry?name=chebi:8614&cla_view_chebi=ChEBI



Basically the active ingredients in psychoactive fungi are suggested to work on the human nervous system through sympathomimetic actions down serotonergic pathways from 5-HT receptors. Unironically the serotonergic pathways effect the sympathetic nerves and this suggests a correlation with the HPA Axis, though correlation doesn't necessarily mean cause, necessarily.

Quote:
Several tissues, organs, and neural circuits contribute to the control of blood pressure, and 5-HT can influence many of them. Table 1 lists the relevant locations of the various 5-HT receptors that contribute to cardiovascular regulation. Although we will briefly describe 5-HT's effects in the kidney, adrenal gland, heart, and blood, the focus of this review is on the vasculature, its control by the sympathetic nervous system, and the central nervous system pathways that determine the sympathetic nerve activity to cardiovascular tissues.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3310484/



Quote:
The dynamic interplay between serotonin [5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT)] neurotransmission and the hypothalamic–pituitary–adrenal (HPA) axis has been extensively studied over the past 30 years, but the underlying mechanism of this interaction has not been defined. A possibility receiving little attention is that 5-HT regulates upstream corticotropin-releasing hormone (CRH) signaling systems via activation of serotonin 2C receptors (5-HT2CRs) in the paraventricular nucleus of the hypothalamus (PVH). Through complementary approaches in wild-type rodents and 5-HT2CR-deficient mice, we determined that 5-HT2CRs are necessary for 5-HT-induced HPA axis activation.

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/27/26/6956



What I would be interest in is a paper that says psilocybin does not have an influence on sympathetic nerves, because the view I've taken hypothesises the physical experience of stimulating the sympathetic nerves with psilocybin can help with overcoming the fight or flight response by influencing the HPA Axis to reduce heart rate and blood pressure via the suppression of the release of stress hormones.

Even so again I doubt you'll bother to connect the dots yourself, I hope you will but it's not an expectation.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: sudly]
    #24651422 -

You may be on s9mething w8th fk8ght or flight definealty.

I would say look at dmt.

You may be b8tting heads with fearlesswarrior or interests
Hey I th9nk h9ms3xuality is both genetic and chemical orientated.

Edited by Jaegar (09/22/17 10:32 AM)

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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #24651789 -

Well said!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24651799 -


4) Avoid malicious personalisms. We're all human and nobody expects a completely sterile discussion, but please try to keep to the topic, and leave the folks you're talking to personally out of the discussion. A certain level of personal banter is in the grey area while getting to know your fellow posters over time, but keep it well-intentioned and keep it ON-TOPIC.  What constitutes malice is left up to the moderator's discretion; if you have any questions, complaints or suggestions please notify a moderator.

Edited by CosmicJoke (09/22/17 04:07 PM)

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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: Jaegar]
    #24652139 -

I don't know what your problem is, considering we do not know one another, but you clearly have a problem with a lack of manners. By name-calling like a school-yard child you have already identified yourself as some late adolescent with no respect for others, let alone your elders. If you are actually older than age 25 and developmentally past adolescence, you evidence a problem with any authority that is based on age and experience beyond your own, not yet having been in similar situations. If you have a criticism, make it, but proof-read it before publishing it. If it is legitimate, I will acknowledge it. If you're simply lashing out linguistically, take note that I'm not going to be offended, I'm simply going to analyze it as emotional reactivity originating with you and being projected onto me. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one. But as with assholes, few people choose to identify themselves completely with their opinion because it too might be full of shit. Tread lightly.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: CosmicJoke]
    #24652228 -

CosmicJoke said:
Petty battle, IMHO.... The real scientific materialists are busy working on their science, they don't have time for message boards.  It's really only the people who make scientific materialism the new inquisition that I have a problem with, yanno the people who had Reich imprisoned and his books burned, or specifically tried to shut down Sheldrake's work....  Not all that different than faith based fundies.



So having a specific view or set of beliefs means someone has to be working on science and that they don't have down time? And who wants to go imprison people or burn books or stop people from doing their own work? I think it's interesting to hear both sides, especially when this is a discussion board and not some POW camp.

This is a petty claim, IMHO.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24652678 -

Man-childs are not elders.

EDIT: You're still a great poster tho :tongue2:

Edited by Hobozen (09/23/17 11:22 AM)

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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: sudly]
    #24657493 -

Quote:
[
In my view such machines would be considered conscious but not sentient. For machines to cross that barrier though I think is something for another thread as I'm unsure of the technical aspects that would or could correspond AI to my own understandings of biological theory.




So what is your definition of sentience then and what makes biological organisms sentient? I don't think this is necessarily a discussion for a different thread, I think this is an important point because it has implications that tie into other areas of this discussion.

Quote:
Whether I said it or not those stars would still have existed before life on Earth and consciousness upon it was able to exist, the only difference if I wasn't here is that I wouldn't be aware of the cosmic history behind our planet. Are you suggesting consciousness on Earth is what makes stars exist?



I'm suggesting that there would be no grounds for saying the earth existed (or stars for that matter) if we weren't here to say they existed. When we say something exists, we mean it exists for us.  What is the criteria you use to judge whether something exists? It is it's ability to make itself known to your conscious mind, is it not? An observer is required. How can you have time, space, matter, with no observer?

Quote:
It's sounding like you may be taking parallels with the idea that the moon only exists when you look at it.



Well, even if you're not looking at the moon you can still observe its effects on the tides or the light it reflects during the night but I'm saying there is no grounds for saying this reality exists independently of us.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

Edited by Peyote Road (09/24/17 11:34 PM)

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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24657525 -

Best put I'd probably say sentience is an awareness of interoception, like recognising when your heart rate goes whack and being able to focus enough to slow it down. Being able to selectively respond I suppose. 

Again it doesn't matter whether I or you exist, the stars were there before us, the only difference if we did not exist is that WE would not be aware of the stars existence.

I can't see some guy called Jerry on the other side of the planet but I'm sure that someone exists over there, and if I died tomorrow that guy would still exist. Again and again I'll say to you that it doesn't matter whether the conscious mind is aware of something it won't change whether or not it exists because objects will and do simply exist irrespective of whether they are perceived by a conscious or sentient mind.

Hold a rock, close your eyes and shit yourself in amazement because it'll still be there! Heck throw that stone in a pond and whadya know? It'll still exist.

Wtf are you on dude? I don't know who you think is saying reality exists independently of our beings but it's certainly not I.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: sudly]
    #24657560 -

Quote:
Best put I'd probably say sentience is an awareness of interoception, like recognising when your heart rate goes whack and being able to focus enough to slow it down. Being able to selectively respond I suppose. 



So if I suffered brain damage, and was no longer able to focus enough to enough to slow down my heart rate, I would no longer be sentient?

Quote:
Again it doesn't matter whether I or you exist, the stars were there before us, the only difference if we did not exist is that WE would not be aware of the stars existence.



In which case we'd lose our bases for saying the stars exist or existed before us. It is our awareness of the stars existence - the perception of stars - that we base our belief in stars on.

You consistently ignore epistemological considerations and assume others share your assumptions about the nature of reality. That's why you fail to connect the dots as redgreenvines pointed out, but do not even realize you're failing to do so.

Quote:
I can't see some guy called Jerry on the other side of the planet but I'm sure that someone exists over there, and if I died tomorrow that guy would still exist. Again and again I'll say to you that it doesn't matter whether the conscious mind is aware of something it won't change whether or not it exists because objects will and do simply exist irrespective of whether they are perceived by a conscious or sentient mind.

Hold a rock, close your eyes and shit yourself in amazement because it'll still be there! Heck throw that stone in a pond and whadya know? It'll still exist.



If I dream about a rock and in the dream I close my eyes, then open them and the rock is still there, does that prove the rock still exists when I wake up?


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24657617 -

If your brain was damaged or removed beyond the point of having any mental capability I would say so, though different parts of the brain have different functions so to stop it entirely there'd have to be some serious damage done.

We as human beings may not be able to say that stars exist if we aren't here to say it but those stars will still be there either way, as they have since before the earth was around.

You do know that the light we perceive from most stars has taken billions of years to reach us right? I wonder how you'd explain that if it's truly our awareness or perception of them that means they exist.

Dream about whatever you want man, if dreams are what made things exist boy would I be living in a different world.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: sudly]
    #24657641 -

You're ignoring the philosophical questions I am raising and just re-asserting your point of view. You provide little to no logical argumentation on key points.

Example:

Quote:
Dream about whatever you want man, if dreams are what made things exist boy would I be living in a different world.



So you're saying someone can't dream something up that they don't like and not even realize it's a dream? That only happens to me most nights of the week.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

Edited by Peyote Road (09/25/17 01:47 AM)

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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24657650 -

People can dream up amazing dreams and scenarios like nothing else I've seen on earth, at least in my experience of them. The tragedies, the lust, the dreamous joy is a beautiful thing, I think we've all had it. Mine has been in many a thousand form.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Have the Materialists been defeated on PS&P? [Re: nameless1]
    #24662648 -

nameless1 said:
viktor said:
There used to be great materialist vs. idealist debates on here, but the champions of the materialist side (OC, Icelander, Ped) have all gone.

Did the materialists lose?



Actually, the theory of 'materialism/physicalism' has long been obsolete.
Debating it amounts to debating flat Earth vs spherical.
Old news.




Agreed!  Bell's Theorem :pipesmoke:

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