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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: silversoul7]
    #2414347 -

maybe try the "cheek for an eye" philosophy

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Seeking_Gnosis]
    #2414390 -

Seeking_Gnosis said:
I was once told that in the time of Jesus hitting someone on the right cheek was very disrespectful.


Which hand is it the custom to eat with?
So hitting someone on the right cheek meant you used the left hand which was customarily used for something else?

So what's with "Deny yourself and follow me"?

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: castaway]
    #2414437 -

On the one side there is that over-docile man, on the other side the reactionist. Seems to me that a blend of the two is the most appropriate.


--------------------
Valar Morghulis

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: silversoul7]
    #2414675 -

Quote:
Jesus tells us that if someone slaps us on the cheek, we should turn the other cheek. But is this philosophy practical in the real world? I am probably the most forgiving person I know, and I am much more willing to turn the other cheek than most so-called Christians I have met. The result is that I'm seen as weak--a total pushover who gets taken advantage of and gets no respect


Well, what happened to Jesus?

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2414721 -

He went to heaven and sits in judgement of the world!


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"Plus one upvote +1..."
--- //
-- :meff:
  /l_l\/
--\-/----

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2414731 -

he got nailed to a tree for the benefit of tyrants

And so can you, kids!!

turn that other cheek!

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: silversoul7]
    #2414764 -

There are two minds involved in this type of scenario. One mind is the mind primarily concerned for the self. It is the mind which places highest priority on the safety and comfort of the self, and on the opinions and views of others toward the self. The second mind is primarily concerned for the other. It is the mind which behaves spontaneously for the benefit of others, and is not concerned with the views and opinions of others regarding the self.

Adopting the 'eye for an eye' principle can be spoken of as an example of the behavioural reasoning behind the first mind, which is the mind of self-interest. If someone harms us, we will react in a harmful way to ensure that they do not harm us a second time. We will react in such a way that ensures our position among an unspoken hierarchy. With this approach to afflictive situations, conflict quickly escalates because the self-interested mind is not liable to view itself as worthy of another person's vengence. With this view, each harmful counteraction is viewed as a wrong deed demanding futher counteraction.

Adopting the 'turn the other cheek' principle can be spoken of as an example of the behavioural reasoning behind the second mind, the mind primarily concerned with the welfare of others. If someone harms us, we will react with an understanding, forgiving, and patient demeanor that understands the real mechanics of the problem. We will react in such a way that ensures the afflictive situation will not be prolonged or escalated. Conflicts are quicly defused if this is done skillfully, because the self-interested aggressor finds that there is no opponent mind of self-interest preparing for countermeasure.

Another trait of the mind of self-interest is it's concern for the views and opinions of others, and the actions others may take after having considered those views. It's this same mind which assigns importance to the possiblity that others may lose respect for us, or come to view us as weak because we practice patience in our encounters with others. The self-interested mind does not wish others to think of us this way, because the self-interested mind has it's own power and reputation among it's highest priorities. Because this is true, we cannot adopt the 'turn the other cheek' principle while also maintaining the view that what others think of us is important. The former view is one primarily concerned with the welfare of others, while the latter view is primarily concerned with the interests of the self. These two are in conflict, and cannot be acted upon simultaneously.

Here, we've approached a fork in the road, and have a choice to follow one of two paths. We can either abandon the other-centred principle of turning the other cheek, or we can abandon the self-centred importance assigned to the opinions others may adopt when observing our compassionate behaviour. Either option will resolve our philosophical conflict of interest, but only one option brings us lasting benefit.

Because we are ordinary human beings abiding primarily within minds of self-interest, we desire quick and simple solutions to our quandaries. It appears to us as though the smoothest resolution to this philosophical conflict would be simply to abandon the other-centred approach of patience and forgiveness, and fall back upon the familiar ground of self-importance. It is natural that we would have this tendency.

While much more difficult than abandoning other-centredness, the habit of self-importance is perfectly reversable, and a genuine concern for others can indeed be cultivated. Before we can accomplish this, though, we must understand the benefits of cultivating such a mind of other-centredness, and we must also understand the harmful effects of maintaining the mind of self-centredness.

And that requires careful contemplation.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Ped]
    #2416283 -

Hows that saying go: 'walk a mile in their shoes', so I guess their actions towards me could be mine towards them if the roles were reversed....which means, yes, I could be a belligerant asshole too. It's hard to believe isn't it. :yesnod:

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Ped]
    #2416621 -

I see your compassion. but i have been over this issue many times in my own mind. Especially in this day and age, it is hard for one to devote so much to making sure that other people have not been harmed. In the world that we have now, and especially in life, it is rather hard for me break from my self centerdness and focus on other peoples problems... Because in fact, the very life that i have now very much looks after other people... You may say, well okay, thats not bad, but i dont think someone like me, compared to buddha, could put forth so much time in effort into other people. We would fall like flies in the freezing cold.

I dont agree with what you say, but i find it rather idealistic for the invidual in this day in age. I dont see how you could could connect with a person who has to work 9-5 and take care of their kids and support them.

it may be easy for an indivdual without so much responsibility, but when does this situation rule itself out in the grand scheme of things?

Do you think another approach should be taken to arrive at getting people to understand your since of compassion?

if these people are angry enough to slap you in the first place, do you think that they will understand your compassion right away? Eventually they might...

But to break away from buddhism... and return back to christianity... christ is coming back with a sword. So whatever you thought about christs compassion, well, maybe you can look at it in a new light. I think it assumes a nature of polarized good and evil, but whether that can be founded or not is up to the individual.

Ive come to realize a lot of "absurd" things, which i have found that no one can find the answer too. This being one of those things.


--------------------
What?

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2418845 -

It's not a matter of actions and deeds. If our mind has it's focus oriented on it's own self, engaging in acts of selflessness would be tiresome labour. Of course this is true. If we are disinterested in our tasks of employment, each one of them feels like a frustrating chore. In the same way, if we are primarily interested in ourselves, each action of cherishing others feels like a cumbersome and impractical distraction from "real life". To the self-interested mind, even the thought of working to benefit others is exhausting.

It is only a matter of attitude. If it is our sincere wish to become an other-centred human being, we need to cultivate a genuinely compassionate disposition toward other living beings. If we have this genuinely compassionate disposition, our actions will naturally follow in accordance with that disposition. If our attitude toward others is an authentic one of care and concern, then we will take delight in whatever opportunites to benefit others present themselves to us. We will delight in the opporunity to alleviate the sufferings of others, or to increase their happiness, or simply to make them more comfortable where they are. Just as it is simple for a self-interested mind to engage in self-indulgent actions such as judging others, so it is simple for the selfless mind to engage in selfless actions such as respecting others.

Gen Kelsang Phuntsog said, "The best way to get where you're going is to start where you are." At present, we are ordinary self-oriented, self-interested human beings. We cannot simply step out of this position and into it's opposite of indiscriminate loving kindness. That would be enormously impractical indeed. It is a gradual process. If somehow we were able to make this sudden reversal, those we encounter would continue to approach us as though we were primarily self-interested. They would have their usual barriers and defensive attitudes, and, if they are begrudged against us, may continue to seek retribution against us. They may even assume that our sudden change were insincere, a transparent ruse. But if the change were gradual -- and it always is -- those we encounter would observe our afflictions diminish and our happiness increase. It's difficult to hold a grudge against someone who is increasingly apparent in their concern for our wellbeing.

Whether we work a 9-5 job, manage a rocky marriage, or cope with a stressful school life, daily life is an excellent training grouds for cultivating a genuinely compassionate disposition. In fact, if compassion is our sincere wish, it is the difficulty in our daily lives which becomes the direct cause of our compassion.

Being compassionate does not mean we expose ourselves to the onslaught of others. It simply means that we do not engage in or perpetuate the afflictions of others. A compassionate mind understands the cause of a person's unhappiness or aggression, and therefore does not become personally wounded when that unhappiness is brought before the self. In this way, compassion does not leave us volnerable; it actually protects us from suffering and conflict. This is the most practcal objective of all.

When two self-interested minds meet in conflict, they perpetuate eachother like a tennis match. Back and forth the conflict goes; there is never a solution until somebody is injured, emotionally or otherwise. When a self-interested mind meets a compassionate mind in conflict, there is no return of that affliction. If we are skillful in our encounters with others, defusing conflict is effortless. This is a skill that comes with time, patience with ourselves, and with the depth of our compassion.

Before we can desire to adopt a compassionate attitude, we need to understand it's benefits. Once we understand the benefits of compassionate living, we will naturally move in that direction. It is paramount that we do not attempt to exceed our own capacities. If we are interested in developing a compassionate mind, all we must do is continuously examine the behaviour of our own mind, and observe the consequence of certain thoughts and actions. Working within our own capacities, we can try applying compassionate responses to small situations, and we can observe the results. We can check our motivation for carrying out this investigation. All we must do to understand the benefits of compassion is understand the mechanics of the mind.

Step by step, if it is our sincere wish, we will become compassionate people.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Ped]
    #2419297 -

But not everyone cares about being compassionate people. Some choose to be murderers... is it okay to turn the other cheek? Or should these problems be dealt with? This almost absurd question almost lends itself to the jesus's with a sword approach... well, it seems that way anyway.


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What?

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2421046 -

When it comes to criminal behaviour, we should do what is necessary to protect our own welfare, and the welfare of others. This can be equally as compassionate of a view as it can be a vindictive view. If someone chooses the misguided path of killing, then they should of course not be permitted to continue that action. Removing the civil rights of these individuals is not necessarily an uncompassionate act. Proper discipline of such unfortunate individuals can be approached compassionately, and with understanding.

We can behave compassionately toward murderers without allowing them to go on killing. We can arbitrate justice where it is due without indulging our own sense of vindictiveness. Vindictiveness only narrows our view and will not help a criminal realize the error of his crime. If anything at all, maintaining a vengeful attitude will only entrench a criminal in his crimes. Why do we bring justice to criminals with the simultaneous intent to bring them harm, as "payback"? What does this accomplish? It only causes us to lose our happiness.

All actions have two aspects, cause and effect. There is a cause of criminal behaviour, and there is an effect of criminal behaviour. Because the effect arises in dependence upon the cause, without a cause there can be no criminal activity.

A justice system which is pervaded by a sense of vengence is primarily focused on the effects of criminal activity, and how those effects are immediately relevant to the victims of the crime, and those close to them. Such a justice system arises from a self-centred society. As such, the victims of criminal activity are typically concerned only with the aspects of a crime which are immediately relevant to the self. Because it is the effect of a crime which is immediately relevant to the self, and not it's cause, a vindictive justice system is only able to address half of the problem.

In this way, self-interest creates ignorance.

Because it is only the effect of a crime which is immediately relevant to the self, our justice system is structered in such a way that punishes criminals for the effects of their actions, with more severe punishments relative to more severe crimes. An "eye for an eye", as it were. The cause of the crime is generally overlooked, and therefore the potential for the crime to recur always remains.

In this way, ignorance perpetuates conflict.

Deciding appropriate justice after having only considered the effects of a crime is like removing a weed from a garden by cutting it at it's stem. With this approach toward eliminating weeds, we remove only the effect of the weeds: the unattractive and thorny plants amidst are garden of otherwise beautiful flowers. It is common knowledge that if we wish to have a garden free of unsightly weeds, we need to address that which allows weeds to appear: their roots.

A compassionate justice system would naturally arise from within an other-centred society, and therefore would not place such heavy emphasis on the aspects of a criminal act which are immediately relevant to the self. Such a justice system would be more interested in exploring the causes of the criminal's behaviour, and in deciding upon a way those causes can be removed so that the crime does not occur a second time. Because it would be completely unobstructed by the narrow views which arise from self-importance, such a justice system would be much more liable to adopt the entire scope of criminal behaviour, and therefore much more equipped to reduce criminal activity.

In this way, compassion creates wisdom.

We can see that at present, our justice system does not carry a heavy sway on criminal statistics. We can also see that our society approaches justice mainly with the "eye for an eye" disposition. We can understand logically that maintaining such a principle prevents us from apprehending the causes of criminal behaviour. Since we cannot eliminate criminal behaviour without eliminating it's cause, we can conclude that the "eye for an eye" principle, a self-centred philosophy which has been adopted as a cultural convention, is not one which enables peace and harmony within a society.

We can consider the alternative, a justice system which is primarily concerned with the causes of criminal behaviour. Since the causes of criminal behaviour are found only within the criminal, a compassionate attitude toward the criminal prompts us to explore the root of his harmful actions. This enables us to apprehend the full scope of criminal behaviour, and therefore enables us to uncover the root of criminal activity. We can therefore conclude that a compassionate society is one truly capable of establishing a peaceful, harmonious social order, because such a society is equipped with the tools necessary to eliminate the roots of chaotic and harmful behaviour.

In this way, wisdom creates peace.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Ped]
    #2425587 -

On a globalized larger scale:
In order to expirence peace, it would be necessary for all to become in harmony with themselves and develop understanding that they are a part of the Universe.

Personally, I think there are too many people on this planet. Its generally agreed that 100 million people world wide is a good all around number for positive community growth and human evolution (lol, maybe when that cataclysm comes, eh?). But for 7.6 billion peopel; I believe that our judicial system is just about as refined as its going to get.



On a personal and much more important scale:
You cannot fight resistance with more resistance.

Surrender to peace when it offers itself to you and you will teach others to become peaceful. Learning that will ultimately teach you how that emotions are decisions; and through that much higher forms of consciousness blossom in your mind.

If you are truly peaceful, you will expirence a peaceful way of life.

But it is important to remember pain and death are illusions, consciousness is forever (I personally think that that concept is proven through the fact that nothing is truly wasted in the Universe as it all evolves, returns to the source, and then recycles again).

Just wanted to ramble and hope that I could spread peace a bit more :smile:
---------------------

:X Ped basically said what I said and much more (..and much more intricately might I add. I highly suggest you read his words as they are enriched with sweet chocolately wisdom...mmmm chocolate). :sun:


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.

Edited by psyka (03/12/04 10:14 PM)

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Ped]
    #2426485 -

I don't know about the rest of you, but I nominate Ped for the position of Leader of Earth! :laugh: If only everyone had the chance to hear and understand this wisdom and insight he reminds us of, and would start to manifest it in their own life.... we'd have world peace in a day.  :grin:
Peace.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: silversoul7]
    #2426529 -

i think christ meant turn the other cheek in certain circumstances like with cops,they try to get reactions out of you by slapping you in the face or something,hoping you bite back and then giving you a proper hiding and charging you for assault along with it.in that case if you turned the other cheek when he 1st hit you they then "think" you are maybe a reasonable kind of guy after all and will be softer.i've been in both situations.they seem to think they have a right to test people like that.
the same as if you are walking along with your wife and kids and some punk(with mates ofcourse) sees you at a weak moment and starts on you,whether it be a filthy look,or whatever, for your families sake you turn the other cheek.
but when alone stand strong if one on one
my two bobs worth

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: silversoul7]
    #2426799 -

Wow... so much to read here.  I gave up in the middle of the thread, lol.  I am interested in this topic and will read everything later, but to answer the question I think purity is the most all powerfull weapon you can use in any situation,  Being good.  If you are truly pure it is impossible to walk over you and you will have the highest of respect ever.  To do this you must realize every thing bad someone does, they do it from will of good.  Everyone just wants to have purity in their life, but alot of people use the wrong tools :shake:
When will people understand?!  Ok, when you turn the other cheek without showing fear and without showing loss of courage and showing belief in yourself and concern for the person who slapped you the other automaticaly has respect for you because of your strength and will like you because of your concern for the other person.  The only way this goes wrong is if you show fear.  If you dont take beating in a negative manner and can still stand tall there is no reason to slap you.  Purity over wins unpurity in any way, when it comes to energy, action, intent, will.... anyway you look at it, you get the best out of life by being pure.
Just a little lesson from spirits to me and now from me to you :wink:


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Magic mushrooms are not addictive, the shroomery is!

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: filthysock]
    #2429594 -

i havent finished reading the whole thread yet..i think i will print it up.

But i just wanted to throw this in there. Ive been having trouble with this whole thing too. Like when someone sells me some bunk acid...well my philosophy is there is no excuse for voilence and karma will do the dirty work for me.

for me...anger only exists because of ignorence...anything of bad karma is only a result of some kind of ignorence. So if im agry about something..then im obviously ignorent about something...and im too busy trying to figure out what im ignorent about and enlightening myself to be angry anyways...so i never really get angry. Ager come out of hate. And hate is the worst form of ignorence.

but for my friend..he wants to beat this guys ass...he says its because hes been fucked so hard so many times and thats why he thinks this. He syas if i was fucked as hard and as many times he was i would see things his way. But i dissagree. We argue about this scenerio a lot...and i really dont know quite what to make of it. I mean i get no satisfaction from doing any sort of psycical harm to anyone no matter how much of an asshole they are. In the past i might have...but ive learned a lot. This is a different story is im drunk or something...sometime alchohol can make someone ignorent to the point of not giving a fuck if they are ignorent...which is the worst in my eyes.

what is your outlook on this situation ped? ive been wanting to ask you about this because i love your posts and they are always good and full of wisdom.

thanks


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Seeking_Gnosis]
    #2429654 -

Quote:
Matthew 5:39 "ButI tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also."


In the context of the entire quote, it is quite obvious that there is no symbolic insult of slapping a right cheek. What part of "I tell you not to resist an evil person" are you folks having a hard time understanding?

The message here is that since our time on earth is fleeting and if we do everything we're supposed to we'll end up spending an eternity in bliss, it's better to be a punching bag now and reap the bennies later.

This is exactly the same conceptual reasoning that leads to suicide bombings. Who cares if you blow yourself to bits? The pain is fleeting indeed compared to the eternal reward awaiting you.

This kind of behavior is logical if one believes in such a thing as life after death. But if you believe your time on earth is all you get (i.e. no chance of either eternal life in heaven or even for that matter another shot at life on earth via reincarnation) then resisting evil people is a viable option.

pinky


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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Vulture]
    #2431718 -

>> for me...anger only exists because of ignorence...anything of bad karma is only a result of some kind of ignorence. So if im agry about something..then im obviously ignorent about something

This is the same as what Buddha says about anger and hatred.


About your friend:

Just this morning, a consistently suprising young woman imparted some wisdom to me. She said "When a hurricane comes, the trees stand tall and firm. Because of their rigidity, they are often knocked down by the force of the wind. Bamboo, on the other hand, bends with the wind, and when the storm passes it stands upright again."

When facing turbulent situations, we have the option either to emulate the tree, or the bamboo. Usually, we are like the tree, standing in defiance of difficult situations. If we do this, we almost always become hurt. If we aren't knocked down completely, we will almost surely sustain some damage. It is better to be like the bamboo, which is flexible, patient in a sense, and therefore much more durable in troubled times.

Typically, we become rigid when someone brings us harm, because we have the habit of grasping tightly to our own identity. We view ourselves as important, and therefore become very disturbed when others interfere with what the self desires. Because of this, it is anger, hatred, or violence which dictates our usual response to those who might harm us. If someone has taken our money in a dishonest trade, neither anger nor hatred can rectify the situation. It can only serve in destroying our happiness. If, motivated by some sense of justice, we were to physically assault somebody whose stolen our money, what would we accomplish? It seems that losing our money caused us to lose our happiness. Will engaging in violence help us regain our happiness?

The sense of satisfaction that comes with violent retribution is one of the most fleeting forms of happiness attainable. It disappears at almost the same moment it arrives. After the conflict has settled, we quickly realize that the conflicts which prompted the violence have not been solved. If someone has cheated us out of money, we still do not have our money. Even if we our money was returned in a plea for mercy, we are still disatisfied. Rather than recognizing his error and feeling remorse, our opponent was simply trying to protect his own self. He is still completely unconcered with our own welfare, just as he was when he first took our money dishonestly.

Even if we were to relax our grip on our selves by just a tiny fraction, able to relax our self-importance only slightly, it would be enough to eliminate all the superficial conflicts in our entire life. If someone takes our money dishonestly, we can only become angry with him or her if we conceive of ourselves as being of paramount importance. If we step away even an inch from this view, the conditions which sustain our potential to become angry, involved in conflict, volnerable to suffering, disappear. We become much more flexible, and therefore much more durable in times of trouble.

Losing our money did not cause us to lose our happiness. That is the illusion. In actuality, it is our own self-important view which caused us to lose our happiness when our money was lost. It is a fact of life that we will always encounter difficult individuals from day to day. Rather than allowing these encounters to destroy our happiness by always fighting, always resisting, always pushing others away, it is much more conducive to our wellbeing if we simply relax, roll with the punches, and always offer others the victory.

Your friend is fortunate because on some level, he's already realized that all human beings conceive of themselves as most important. We can see this with his comment, "if you were experiencing this trouble directly, you'd see things the way I do." He's correct in that most individuals in his place would react similarly, because all individuals conceive of themselves as most important. All your friend must now realize is how the self-important view is at the root of all his hardship.

Be careful when bringing this kind of idea to your friend, though, if that's what you decide to do. Many people do not want to hear these sorts of things. It is not helpful to close another person's ears to these sort of ideas. Because of this, it should be carefully examined whether or not the listener will be willingly receptive.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Turning the other cheek [Re: Ped]
    #2431896 -

thanks a lot ped...your wisdom is always most enlightening.

im not afraid of what my firend has to say..i know him better than i know almost anyone. Hes a member here and hes my trip buddy. Hes the one that introduced me to all of the spriritual things that i folow today so im not afraid of his response. Hes as open minded as they come and will try to understand...its just making him understand :smile: We all like to think that we are right, even i can testify to that...but most of the time im just confused as to weather im really right or im just missing something.

i will probably just point him to this thread and see what he says. His viewpoint can be understood weather or not its justified or not. Being robbed at gunpoint a couple times and things like that are what drive this inner hatred. Im just trying to let the light shine in.


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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