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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2323844 -

wikipedia sometimes isn't the greatest source either.

"Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia that is being written collaboratively by contributors from all around the world. The site is a WikiWiki, meaning that anyone, including you, can edit any article right now by clicking on the edit this page link that appears in every Wikipedia article except for a few protected pages."

anyone can submit entries to wikipedia or edit the content. for example, i've just now corrected the entry and it now says 7,800 for total number of nuclear weapons actively deployed by the US. it also now includes weapons deployed by israel.

"List of countries in order of number of deployed weapons

* United States - 7,800
* Russia - 8,400
* China - 400
* France - 350
* Israel - 100-200
* United Kingdom - 200
* India - 60-90
* Pakistan - 24-48 "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_nuclear_weapons

for the record, before i did this, i checked the original source used to get the numbers. the original number was derived from subtracting the number of US warheads awaiting dismantlement from the total inventory. just as with the russians however, not all of our weapons not awaiting dismantlement are actively deployed. some are on inactive status (2655 of them to be exact). i've cited the CDI site as a source for the info i've put in the wikipedia entry.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2324663 -

i've cited the CDI site as a source for the info i've put in the wikipedia entry.

The source that estimates the total suspected Russian arsenal at 10,000 with the US on 10656?  :smirk:

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2325031 -

the CDI says that the russians have 8,400 active nukes while the US has 7,800.

note that it says "deployed weapons" in the wikipedia entry.

i see that you've changed the entry and that it now contains a false number inconsistant with the source cited. have you no integrity at all?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2325105 -

Quote:
have you no integrity at all?


:lol:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2326223 -

the CDI says that the russians have 8,400 active nukes while the US has 7,800

The CDI says the total suspected nuclear arms of Russia is approx 10,000 while that of America is 10656.

Do you dispute that America has more strategic nuclear weapons than Russia?

i see that you've changed the entry and that it now contains a false number inconsistant with the source cited. have you no integrity at all?

Don't be fucking ludicrous mush. I've got better things to do than chase you around changing wiki entries for christssakes.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2326851 -

The CDI says the total suspected nuclear arms of Russia is approx 10,000 while that of America is 10656.

1. it says that in one place (the summary at the top of the page). in the details, it says that the russians have 15,000-20,000 nuclear weapons, and later in the details, it says they've got 19,400. what you have found is a single datum in support of your assertions. thought it is contradicted by every other source available, including the very source it appears in, you are adhering to it like gospel to the exclusion of all contradicting data.

"Russia is currently estimated to have about 5,000 strategic nuclear warheads plus 3,400 tactical nuclear weapons. It should be noted, however, that estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement"

"Total Nuclear Weapons: ~8,400 (active)
Total Reserve Forces (stockpiled and not mated to delivery vehicles): ~11,000+
(the exact number is unknown, although most of these weapons are non-strategic)"

http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/nukearsenals.cfm#Russia

2. the wikipedia entry specifically refers to "deployed weapons". nowhere in the source currently cited is data available for "deployed weapons". this data is actually available at the CDI source, which is the data i used and the source i cited when i editted the entry.

Do you dispute that America has more strategic nuclear weapons than Russia?

no alex, i don't. the US has got more strategic nuclear weapons than russia. that is what the sources say. we are talking about total nuclear weapons. not just strategic ones, and not just ones that aren't waiting to be scrapped. russia has got more total nuclear weapons than the US. that is what the sources say.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2327418 -

Quote:
what you have found is a single datum in support of your assertions.


S.O.P.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2329038 -

it says that in one place (the summary at the top of the page).

Pretty important place to put it isn't it? Why do you think they put it there? What figure would you use to put in the summary if you were putting together a summary table? The most accurate you had?

no alex, i don't. the US has got more strategic nuclear weapons than russia.

And you do know what the primary purpose of strategic nuclear weapons is as opposed to tactical? And how that relates to the definition of WMD?

As Robin Cook (ex-Foreign Office minister) stated: A weapon of mass destruction in normal speech is a device capable of being delivered over a long distance and exterminating a strategic target such as a capital city.

we are talking about total nuclear weapons.

Actually Shroomism's original premise was who had the most WMD.

i see that you've changed the entry and that it now contains a false number inconsistant with the source cited. have you no integrity at all?

Waste of time asking I know, but will there be any apology for this bullshit?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2329110 -

Pretty important place to put it isn't it. Why do you think they put it there? What figure would you use to put in the summary if you were putting together a summary table? The most accurate you had?

people make mistakes alex. something might be put in the site which is not true. when the information is contradicted by all other available sources, including information on the same page it appears in, a person with some intellectual honesty would question the viability of that information.

here's a good example (from the CDI website no less). if you click on this link:

http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/rusnukes.html#tu95hbear

you are taken to a page which details each of the items in russia's nuclear arsenal. the description of the Tu-95 Bear bomber has this picture next to it:



check it out.

now... although the source says that this is a Tu-95, that doesn't make it a Tu-95. i can look to many other sources and see that a Tu-95 actually looks like this:



i wouldn't go on insisting that the first image was a Tu-95 just because the source said so. perhaps it was mistaken. in light of the fact that every other source contradicted it, that would certainly be a strong possibility. in fact, it turns out that the first image is indeed not a photo of a Tu-95, but an F-16.

And you do know what the primary purpose of strategic nuclear weapons is as opposed to tactical? And how that relates to the definition of WMD?

you asked me which countries had more nuclear weapons. my response was russia. if you only wanted to know about strategic weapons then you should have said so.

Actually Shroomism's original premise was who had the most WMD.

correct, and when i disputed that, i was asked which country had the most nuclear weapons, to which i replied "russia", because it does. if you want to concede that russia does have the most nuclear weapons, and continue the discussion from there, let's move on.

Waste of time I know, but will there be any apology for this bullshit?

i'm sorry for implying that you changed the entry. i thought that you did.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2329123 -

people make mistakes alex

Indeed. And who do you think is most likely to make a mistake on this? The CDI's conclusion or a kid on a shroom board who first started trying to grasp this topic when I posted the link a few days ago?

correct

So we can agree we've at least cleared up which country has the most WMD. At least that's settled.

i'm sorry for implying that you changed the entry. i thought that you did.

Cheers mush  :smile2:

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2329131 -

Indeed. And who do you think is most likely to make a mistake on this? The CDI's conclusion or a kid on a shroom board who first started trying to grasp this topic when I posted the link a few days ago?

appeal to authority. is the first image a Tu-95 or an F-16? i mean... i say it's an F-16, but i'm just a kid on a 'shroom board, so what do i know?

So we can agree we've at least cleared up which country has the most WMD. At least that's settled.

no, we've settled the fact that the US has the most strategic nuclear weapons.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2329206 -

i think all of this talk about nukes has been distracting. a while back, shroomism claimed that the united states had more weapons of mass destruction than any other country. i asked him for a source for that info, and then i was asked who i thought had the most nuclear weapons, and then all of this.

i do not know who has the most WMD's. i'm not trying to prove that we don't. i was just curious about a source. i would suspect that the russians probably have more WMD's. i do know that the soviets were pretty heavy producers of chemical weapons, but it wouldn't surprise me if the US had more either. i really don't know. i wouldn't even think that the data is available, which is why i was curious when someone claimed that the US had the most. so back to the original question:

source?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2330085 -

appeal to authority

I don't think the CDI are "authority". They're just experts in the field. There's not really much more to say until the CDI says "Actually instead of giving the 10,000 for the suspected Russian nuclear weapons total we meant 19,000" and changes the website accordingly.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2330166 -

the single peice of evidence you are relying on is contradicted by every other source available and is even contradicted (in more than one place) in the very source in which it appears. using it to conclude that the russians have less nuclear weapons than the US is about as prudent as using this photo:



to conclude that this is what a Tu-95 looks like.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2330209 -

and is even contradicted (in more than one place) in the very source in which it appears

No mush, IN YOUR OPINION, it's contradicted. Big difference. If the CDI thought the suspected Russian nuclear weapons total was 19,000 that is what they would have included in the summary. The fact that they had access to that number and still didn't include it in the summary makes it clear they don't believe the total is 19,000.

And what are these "other sources" you talk about? Do you mean the ones I've given you?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2330294 -


No mush, IN YOUR OPINION, it's contradicted.

russia cannot simultaneously have only 10,000 warheads and 15,000-20,000 or 19,400 warheads. it's a logical contradiction. it's not a matter of opinion. the 10,000 number is contradicted by the other numbers.

The fact that they had access to those numbers and didn't include them in the summary makes it clear they don't believe the total is 19,000.

then why would they include such statements as these?

"Russia is currently estimated to have about 5,000 strategic nuclear warheads plus 3,400 tactical nuclear weapons. It should be noted, however, that estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement."


"Total Nuclear Weapons: ~8,400 (active)

Total Reserve Forces (stockpiled and not mated to delivery vehicles): ~11,000+
(the exact number is unknown, although most of these weapons are non-strategic)"

note that these two are consistant with eachother, while the one you are fond of is not.

And what are these "other sources" you talk about?

18,000 from here: http://www.nrdc.org/nuclear/nudb/datab10.asp

15,000-20,000 from here:
http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/nukearsenals.cfm#Russia

18,000 from here:
http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/ja03nukenote.html

13,000-20,000 from here:
http://www.wand.org/getfacts/index/nuke-weapons.html

and on and on. i imagine that there are more. as of yet, i haven't come across a single source in all of my searching that says that the russians have 10,000 or less total nuclear weapons. how many opposing sources would it take for you to reexamine your position?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2333357 -

it's not a matter of opinion. the 10,000 number is contradicted by the other numbers.

Can you explain precisely where on the page it explains how they arrived at the 10,000 figure? Or are you just making up your own version of how they *might* have reached it?

Are you seriously expecting me to accept that after carefully putting together a page of figures when they get to the conclusion on Russia they accidentally put 10,000? And it isn't just a few hundred out, it's the best part of 10,000 out? That no-one noticed?

Don't you think that's a little unlikely? And if they are that unreliable then why on earth are you quoting figures from them to *support* your position?

It should be noted, however, that estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement."

I'm not too confident about high "estimates" of WMD mush. Iraq was "estimated" to have hundreds of tons of VX gas, mustard gas, Ricin, anthrax, a nuclear weapons programme. In reality of course they had precisely fuck-all. You'll understand why I'm a little leery of taking high "estimates" in this area at face value.

18,000 from here

With the best part of 10,000 awaiting dismantlement..

18,000 from here:

Of those, some 8,250 are considered active and operational; the rest occupy an indeterminate status.

13,000-20,000 from here

Jeez mush, things must be getting desperate. I never thought you'd quote a site for "Women, power and peace". There's hope for you yet!  :laugh:

WAND Education Fund educates the public and opinion leaders about the need to reduce violence and militarism in society, and redirect excessive military spending to unmet human and environmental needs.

And once again you miss out the bit that says:

Estimated totals for US and Russia warheads include those in active, operational forces as well as retired, non-deployed warheads awaiting dismantlement and weapons in reserve

15,000-20,000 from here:

What are you talking about? You have just quoted the page where it says the suspected total nuclear weapons is 10,000.

i haven't come across a single source in all of my searching that says that the russians have 10,000 or less total nuclear weapons

Go back and read the very first source I posted for you. Go to the top of the page. It says that for Russia the "Total suspected nuclear weapons ~ 10,000"

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2333968 -


Can you explain precisely where on the page it explains how they arrived at the 10,000 figure? Or are you just making up your own version of how they *might* have reached it?

i haven't the slightest idea how they reached it but it's clear that it's wrong. how do you think they reached it?

Are you seriously expecting me to accept that after carefully putting together a page of figures when they get to the conclusion on Russia they accidentally put 10,000? And it isn't just a few hundred out, it's the best part of 10,000 out? That no-one noticed?

alex, let us be very clear about one thing. they did make at least one mistake. they either made a mistake at the top of the page or they made two at the bottom. in light of the fact that every other source available says that the russians have far more than 10,000 nukes, i think it's much more likely that the mistake is at the top, not the bottom. if the top number is correct, not only did the CDI make a mistake, but also the NRDC, the bulletin of atomic scientists, and every other source that says more than 10,000, of which there are many.

Don't you think that's a little unlikely?

not as unlikely as 10,000 being right and everyone else being wrong.

And if they are that unreliable then why on earth are you quoting figures from them to *support* your position?

i don't need to quote them. personally i think that the best source of information on this matter is probably the bulletin of atomic scientists. there are many others as well. i've cited them also. how many sources support your assertions?

I'm not too confident about high "estimates" of WMD mush.

use the low estimate then. if you read carefully, you'll see that the 10,000-15,000 is only for tactical weapons. add that to their strategic weapons and you will arrive at a number much higher than 10,000.

With the best part of 10,000 awaiting dismantlement..

i was asked who had the most nuclear weapons. i responded russia, which is true. had i been asked, "who has the most nuclear weapons not currently slated to be dismantled?" then i wouldn't have said russia.

Of those, some 8,250 are considered active and operational; the rest occupy an indeterminate status.

see response above. to be perfectly fair, only 7,800 of america's nukes are on active status.

Jeez mush, things must be getting desperate. I never thought you'd quote a site for "Women, power and peace". There's hope for you yet!

they didn't find the information themselves you know. they've cited a source and you can check that out yourself.

And once again you miss out the bit that says:

Estimated totals for US and Russia warheads include those in active, operational forces as well as retired, non-deployed warheads awaiting dismantlement and weapons in reserve

no, the part i must have missed was where someone asked me only about "active, operational" nukes. i could have sworn the question was in simpler terms. maybe you can point me to where i was asked only about active, operational weapons.

What are you talking about? You have just quoted the page where it says the suspected total nuclear weapons is 10,000.

it also says what i just cited. as we've already covered, the page contains conflicting information.


Go back and read the very first source I posted for you. Go to the top of the page. It says that for Russia the "Total suspected nuclear weapons ~ 10,000"

ok, there's one, and it contradicts itself twice.

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