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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Shroomism]
    #2311757 -

The neocons ain't gonna like that shroom!  :smile2:

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Shroomism]
    #2311796 -

the US has more WMD than any other country.

source?

us funding, supplying, and encouraging wars between two countries, telling both sides we are on their team, and then pulling out to watch and reap the benefits?

which war was that?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2311868 -

Well for a start mush, which country has more nuclear weapons than the US?

(That's before we even get to the stuff that most experts don't consider WMD like chemical and bio weapons)

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2311890 -

which country has more nuclear weapons than the US?

russia

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2311922 -

Source?

Not according to what it says here:

http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/nukearsenals.cfm#Russia

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2312003 -

the link says that the united states has a total of 10,455 nuclear weapons, 7,800 of which are actively deployed, and russia has 8,400 actively deployed, with 10,000-15,000 in reserve.

from the link:

US:

Strategic Nuclear Weapons: 8,855 (7,000 active, 1,855 inactive)

Non-strategic (tactical) Nuclear Weapons: 1,600 (800 active, 800 inactive)

Total Nuclear Weapons: 10,455 (7,800 active)


Russia:

Strategic Nuclear Weapons: 5,000 (active)

Non-strategic (tactical) Nuclear Weapons: ~3,400 (active)

Total Nuclear Weapons: ~8,400 (active)
Total Reserve Forces (stockpiled and not mated to delivery vehicles): ~11,000+
(the exact number is unknown, although most of these weapons are non-strategic)

Russia is currently estimated to have about 5,000 strategic nuclear warheads plus 3,400 tactical nuclear weapons. It should be noted, however, that estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2313511 -

russia has 10,000-15,000,

Well not quite. Bit misleading of you mush (accidental I'm sure...). If only you'd just stuck to quoting the website rather than putting your own spin on things.

To clarify (as you finally quoted at the end of your post), it actually says "estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement."

And of course you completly ignore that at the top of the page it lists nuclear weapons by country, the US heads the list with 10656 while Russia is at ~10,000.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2313684 -

Quote:
And France and Germany and Russia all loaned him substantially more than did the US.




Id like to see a source that confirms that France etc loaned more than the US, especially during the 80's. But even if they did, so what? The US was definitely the only country to tell lies to use as an excuse to attack Iraq.


Quote:
"Sure, America, it's easy for you to say forgive the loans to Iraq. Iraq owes you almost nothing anyway!"





You can try and rewrite history all you like but the simple facts remanin: The US loaned Iraq millions of dollars and sold Iraq the ingredients for WMDs. To be honest I find your posistion to be so far from the truth that it is actually offensive.

Quote:
Sigh. If you go far enough down the chemical chain, anything can be described as a precursor for anything else.




Grow a brain Pinky. What other uses, other than the production of WMDs would somebody have for Bacillus Anthracis and Clostridium Botulinum? Thats not going very far down the chemical chain at all.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Phred]
    #2313685 -

Quote:
I realize it may come as a surprise to a denizen of a Socialist country to realize there is such a thing as private industry on this side of the pond, but I assure you such is the case. They make their living selling stuff to people.





Haha! Your ignorance knows no bounds.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: GazzBut]
    #2313722 -

COVER STORY: How the US armed Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons

One of the more comprehensive and damning accounts of Iraqgate was written by Douglas Frantz and Murray Waas and published in the February 23, 1992, Los Angeles Times. Headlined, ?Bush secret effort helped Iraq build its war machine?, the article reported that ?classified documents obtained by the LA Times show ? a long-secret pattern of personal efforts by [George Bush senior] ? both as president and vice president ? to support and placate the Iraqi dictator.?

Even William Safire, the right-wing, war-mongering NYT columnist, on December 7, 1992, felt compelled to write that, ?Iraqgate is uniquely horrendous: a scandal about the systematic abuse of power by misguided leaders of three democratic nations [the US, Britain and Italy] to secretly finance the arms buildup of a dictator?.

At first, as Iraqi forces seemed headed for victory over Iran, official US policy was neutrality in the conflict. Not only was Hussein doing Washington's dirty work in the war with Iran, but the US rulers believed that Iraq could be lured away from its close economic and military relationship with the Soviet Union ? just as Egypt's President Anwar Sadat had done in the 1970s.

In March 1981, US Secretary of State Alexander Haig excitedly told the Senate foreign relations committee that Iraq was concerned by ?the behaviour of Soviet imperialism in the Middle Eastern region?. The Soviet government had refused to deliver arms to Iraq as long as Baghdad continued its military offensive against Iran. Moscow was also unhappy with the Hussein's vicious repression of the Iraqi Communist Party.

Using its allies in the Middle East, Washington funnelled huge supplies of arms to Iraq. Classified State Department cables uncovered by Frantz and Waas described covert transfers of howitzers, helicopters, bombs and other weapons to Baghdad in 1982-83 from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Kuwait.

Howard Teicher, who monitored Middle East policy at the US National Security Council during the Reagan administration, told the February 23, 1992, LA Times: ?There was a conscious effort to encourage third countries to ship US arms or acquiesce in shipments after the fact. It was a policy of nods and winks.?

According to Mark Phythian's 1997 book Arming Iraq: How the US and Britain Secretly Built Saddam's War Machine (Northeastern University Press), in 1983 Reagan asked Italy's Prime Minister Guilo Andreotti to channel arms to Iraq.

The January 1, 1984 Washington Post reported that the US had ?informed friendly Persian Gulf nations that the defeat of Iraq in the three-year-old war with Iran would be ?contrary to US interests' and has made several moves to prevent that result?.

There is no doubt that the US government knew Iraq was using chemical weapons. On March 5, 1984, the State Department had stated that ?available evidence indicates that Iraq has used lethal chemical weapons?. The March 30, 1984, NYT reported that US intelligence officials has ?what they believe to be incontrovertible evidence that Iraq has used nerve gas in its war with Iran and has almost finished extensive sites for mass producing the lethal chemical warfare agent?.

However, consistent with the pattern throughout the Iran-Iraq war and after, the use of these internationally outlawed weapons was not considered important enough by Rumsfeld and his political superiors to halt Washington's blossoming love affair with Hussein.

Conventional military sales resumed in December 1982. In 1983, the Reagan administration approved the sale of 60 Hughes helicopters to Iraq in 1983 ?for civilian use?. However, as Phythian pointed out, these aircraft could be ?weaponised? within hours of delivery. Then US Secretary of State George Schultz and commerce secretary George Baldridge also lobbied for the delivery of Bell helicopters equipped for ?crop spraying?. It is believed that US-supplied choppers were used in the 1988 chemical attack on the Kurdish village of Halabja, which killed 5000 people.

With the Reagan administration's connivance, Baghdad immediately embarked on a massive militarisation drive. This US-endorsed military spending spree began even before Iraq was delisted as a terrorist state, when the US commerce department approved the sale of Italian gas turbine engines for Iraq's naval frigates.

Soon after, the US agriculture department's Commodity Credit Corporation (CCC) guaranteed to repay loans ? in the event of defaults by Baghdad ? banks had made to Iraq to buy US-grown commodities such as wheat and rice. Under this scheme, Iraq had three years to repay the loans, and if it could not the US taxpayers would have to cough up.

Washington offered this aid initially to prevent Hussein's overthrow as the Iraqi people began to complain about the food shortages caused by the massive diversion of hard currency for the purchase of weapons and ammunition. The loan guarantees amounted to a massive US subsidy that allowed Hussein to launch his overt and covert arms buildup, one result being that the Iran-Iraq war entered a bloody five-year stalemate.

By the end of 1983, US$402 million in agriculture department loan guarantees for Iraq were approved. In 1984, this increased to $503 million and reached $1.1 billion in 1988. Between 1983 and 1990, CCC loan guarantees freed up more than $5 billion. Some $2 billion in bad loans, plus interest, ended up having to be covered by US taxpayers.

A similar taxpayer-funded, though smaller scale, scam operated under the auspices of the federal Export-Import Bank. In 1984, vice-president George Bush senior personally intervened to ensure that the bank guaranteed loans to Iraq of $500 million to build an oil pipeline. Export-Import Bank loan guarantees grew from $35 million in 1985 to $267 million by 1990.

According to William Blum, writing in the August 1998 issue of the Progressive, Sam Gejdenson, chairperson of a Congressional subcommittee investigating US exports to Iraq, disclosed that from 1985 until 1990 ?the US government approved 771 licenses [only 39 were rejected] for the export to Iraq of $1.5 billion worth of biological agents and high-tech equipment with military application ?

?The US spent virtually an entire decade making sure that Saddam Hussein had almost whatever he wanted? US export control policy was directed by US foreign policy as formulated by the State Department, and it was US foreign policy to assist the regime of Saddam Hussein.?

A 1994 US Senate report revealed that US companies were licenced by the commerce department to export a ?witch's brew? of biological and chemical materials, including bacillus anthracis (which causes anthrax) and clostridium botulinum (the source of botulism). The American Type Culture Collection made 70 shipments of the anthrax bug and other pathogenic agents.

The report also noted that US exports to Iraq included the precursors to chemical warfare agents, plans for chemical and biological warfare facilities and chemical warhead filling equipment. US firms supplied advanced and specialised computers, lasers, testing and analysing equipment. Among the better-known companies were Hewlett Packard, Unisys, Data General and Honeywell.

Billions of dollars worth of raw materials, machinery and equipment, missile technology and other ?dual-use? items were also supplied by West German, French, Italian, British, Swiss and Austrian corporations, with the approval of their governments (German firms even sold Iraq entire factories capable of mass-producing poison gas). Much of this was purchased with funds freed by the US CCC credits.

On March 16, 1988, Iraqi forces launched a poison gas attack on the Iraqi Kurdish village of Halabja, killing 5000 people. While that attack is today being touted by senior US officials as one of the main reasons why Hussein must now be ?taken out?, at the time Washington's response to the atrocity was much more relaxed.

Just four months later, Washington stood by as the US giant Bechtel corporation won the contract to build a huge petrochemical plant that would give the Hussein regime the capacity to generate chemical weapons.

On September 8, 1988, the US Senate passed the Prevention of Genocide Act, which would have imposed sanctions on the Hussein regime. Immediately, the Reagan administration announced its opposition to the bill, calling it ?premature?. The White House used its influence to stall the bill in the House of Representatives. When Congress did eventually pass the bill, the White House did not implement it.

Washington's political, military and economic sweetheart deals with the Iraqi dictator came under even more stress when, in August 1989, FBI agents raided the Atlanta branch of the Rome-based Banca Nazionale del Lavoro (BNL) and uncovered massive fraud involving the CCC loan guarantee scheme and billions of dollars worth of unauthorised ?off-the-books? loans to Iraq.

BNL Atlanta manager Chris Drougal had used the CCC program to underwrite programs that had nothing to do with agricultural exports. Using this covert set-up, Hussein's regime tried to buy the most hard-to-get components for its nuclear weapons and missile programs on the black market.

Russ Baker, writing in the March/April 1993 Columbia Journalism Review, noted: ?Elements of the US government almost certainly knew that Drougal was funnelling US-backed loans ? into dual-use technology and outright military technology. The British government was fully aware of the operations of Matrix-Churchill, a British firm with an Ohio branch, which was not only at the centre of the Iraqi procurement network but was also funded by BNL Atlanta... It would be later alleged by bank executives that the Italian government, long a close US ally as well as BNL's ultimate owner, had knowledge of BNL's loan diversions.?

Yet, even the public outrage generated by the Halabja massacre and the widening BNL scandal did not cool Washington's ardour towards Hussein's Iraq.

In November 1989, Bush senior approved $1 billion in loan guarantees for Iraq in 1990. In April 1990, more revelations about the BNL scandal had again pushed the department of agriculture to the verge of halting Iraq's CCC loan guarantees. On May 18, national security adviser Scowcroft personally intervened to ensure the delivery of the first $500 million tranche of the CCC subsidy for 1990.

According to Frantz and Waas' February 23, 1992, LA Times article, in July 1990 ?officials at the National Security Council and the State Department were pushing to deliver the second installment of the $1 billion in loan guarantees, despite the looming crisis in the region and evidence that Iraq had used the aid illegally to help finance a secret arms procurement network to obtain technology for its nuclear weapons and ballistic-missile program?.

From July 18 to August 1, 1990, Bush senior's administration approved $4.8 million in advanced technology sales to Iraq. The end-users included Saad 16 and the Iraqi ministry of industry and military industrialisation. On August 1, $695,000 worth of advanced data transmission devices were approved.

?Only on August 2, 1990, did the agriculture department officially suspend the [CCC loan] guarantees to Iraq ? the same day that Hussein's tanks and troops swept into Kuwait?, noted Frantz and Waas.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/506/506p12.htm

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2314482 -

To clarify (as you finally quoted at the end of your post), it actually says "estimates of Russia's tactical nuclear arsenal vary widely, ranging upwards to 10,000-15,000 when estimates include weapons waiting dismantlement."

read carefully. that number refers to only their tactical arms. that is in addition to their strategic arms. the link says this about russia's nuclear weapons:

"Strategic Nuclear Weapons: 5,000 (active)

Non-strategic (tactical) Nuclear Weapons: ~3,400 (active)
Total Nuclear Weapons: ~8,400 (active)

Total Reserve Forces (stockpiled and not mated to delivery vehicles): ~11,000+
(the exact number is unknown, although most of these weapons are non-strategic)"

8,400 active weapons and 11,000 in reserve. that would mean almost 20,000.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314519 -

So why is the US listed as having more nuclear weapons that anyone else at the top of the page?

And if you had "read carefully" you would have explored the site and found where it states:

10,729: Total number of intact U.S. nuclear warheads (274 warheads are awaiting dismantlement)

7,000: Approximate number of operational strategic U.S. nuclear weapons

3,500: Approximate number of strategic U.S. nuclear weapons year 2003 under START II.


8,400: Total number of operational nuclear warheads in Russian arsenal

5,000: Approximate number of Russian strategic nuclear weapons

3,000: Approximate number of strategic Russian nuclear weapons year 2003 under START II.

128,000+: Estimated number of nuclear warheads built worldwide since 1945. All but 2 percent of these nuclear warheads have been built by the United States (55 percent or 70,000+) and Russia (43 percent or 55,000+).




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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2314536 -

because the in the numbers at the top of the page, america's inactive arms are included in the count, while russia's are not. do the math.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314553 -

Have you pointed this out to the CDI?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2314574 -

Have you pointed this out to the CDI?

i just sent them this email:

i'm trying to find a definitive answer to the question of which nation possesses
the most nuclear arms. the information at your website on this page:
http://www.cdi.org/issues/nukef&f/database/nukearsenals.cfm#Russia seems to
contradict itself.

it says in the summary at the top of the page that russia has a nuclear force of
~10,000 nuclear weapons, and the united states has 10,656. then in the details,
it says that russia has a total of approximately 8,400 active weapons and
11,000 inactive ones (for a total of about 19,400, correct?), while the united
states has 10,455 total nuclear weapons (both inactive and active). why the
discrepancy?

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314577 -

i'll post their response when i get it.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314584 -

And what about this info from the site?

10,729: Total number of intact U.S. nuclear warheads (274 warheads are awaiting dismantlement)

7,000: Approximate number of operational strategic U.S. nuclear weapons

3,500: Approximate number of strategic U.S. nuclear weapons year 2003 under START II.


8,400: Total number of operational nuclear warheads in Russian arsenal

5,000: Approximate number of Russian strategic nuclear weapons

3,000: Approximate number of strategic Russian nuclear weapons year 2003 under START II.

128,000+: Estimated number of nuclear warheads built worldwide since 1945. All but 2 percent of these nuclear warheads have been built by the United States (55 percent or 70,000+) and Russia (43 percent or 55,000+).

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2314638 -

because different terminology is used when referring to russia's total nuclear arms ("operational" vs. "intact"), i can't really make anything of that. what is "operational"? hopefully it can be clarified when i get a response from them.

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: ]
    #2314675 -

Well we've got another source here mush. Same result tho - US way in front.

Can you find any sources that say Russia has more than America?

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/mj03nukenote.html

http://www.thebulletin.org/issues/nukenotes/ja03nukenote.html

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Re: Part of Saddam's WMD found! [Re: Xlea321]
    #2314711 -

Well we've got another source here mush.

those numbers at the bottom on the russian page only include strategic arms.

from the second link, referring to russian nuclear arms:

"Based on the best available information, we estimate that the total current arsenal of intact warheads is around 18,000. Of those, some 8,250 are considered active and operational; the rest occupy an indeterminate status."

according to the first link, the total number of US nuclear arms (including both strategic and non-strategic weapons) is ~7,650.

Same result tho - US way in front.

well... you're half right.

Can you find any sources that say Russia has more than America?

why should i do that when you're finding them for me?

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