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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2186959 -

Lying is a tool and you should use it to protect yourself.  If a cop comes up to you and says "You have marijuana?" and you do, you should lie.  Being honest isn't always the right thing.

I've tried to not lie ever for a year.  It's not too hard, but when someone asks you something you need to be untruthful about, you have to:

a) be silent
b) change the subject
c) divert the question
d) answer in part, not in full
e) assume different meanings to words
f) mumble
etc

However doing all those little tricks, you'll eventually catch yourself in a lie sooner or later. "What a tangled web we weave, when we set out to deceive"

A good book:  Never Be Lied To Again , by David J Lieberman

When it comes to lying, knowledge is power.

:kiss:


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man = monkey + mushroom

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: silversoul7]
    #2186964 -

I have personally never cheated on anyone. However, I used to listen to a popular talk show host, who said that if it was a one time event, don't tell the truth. You are burdening your partner with unnecessary truth.

So I haven't had to implement this in real life, but it seems to be worthwhile advice.

As to lying: I (almost) never lie. I hate lying. And reality is that my memory is so bad that I can't lie. If I tell a lie, I will likely forget the lie I told, and fuck up the next telling of the same story.

Nice to have a built-in mechanism against lying. Keeps me honest.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: pattern]
    #2186968 -

LOL!!!


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2186987 -

However, I used to listen to a popular talk show host, who said that if it was a one time event, don't tell the truth.
And we know that his self-appointed expert has the wisest advice merely because he/she is a mini-celebrity?

Unless one is on one's deathbed, it is impossible to say it is a one time thing. In fact most cheaters do repeat.

You are burdening your partner with unnecessary truth
Rationalization is a joy to watch in action. Look at the choice of words in this loaded question.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2186990 -

The part I agree with you in is the second part. I, personally, don't wish to have an affair and then have to lie about it.

However, if I were to have an affair, and it was a one-time deal, why burden my parner?

You aren't answering that aspect of the question.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2187007 -

I would want to know if I'd been cheated on, even if it was a one time thing, so I'd have to be honest about it if I ever did it, which I would never do. I'm ok, usually, with "little white lies" but big things demand honesty. Actually, anything that affects another person negatively, or somewhat seriously demands honesty. If its something that has nothing to do with them or anyone else its up to ones own discretion. I prefer to be honest about everything but personal things that could land me in a fight i tend to keep to myself. It's something I'm working on changing.

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2187020 -

Whether or not you tell your partner, breaking a commitment is a lie. It is lying to one's self. It is a statement that one's word has no substance.

When I have been in love it was impossible to cheat ("I only have eyes for you.") My woman was my world. If I was no longer fulfilled and no resolution appeared to be forthcoming then I ended the relationship. Simple. But nooOOoo, humans l-o-v-e to make things incredibly complex.

If I felt like playing around (see avatar) then I was honest to my partners that I was dating others.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2187023 -

Agreed, Swami...i've tried explaining this to alot of people, alotta people dont seem to get it...I try to show em what I mean by this quote from John Gotti, the Mobster himself:
"I don't ever lie to anybody because I dont fear anybody. The only time a man lies is when he's afraid."

Exactly...Fear is the primary drive for MOST if not all lies, and is one of the primary drives for ALL lies.

I hate liars btw...I can't stand them.


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2187034 -

I agree with you. I hate liars, too. Made it difficult for me to be an attorney, when I first became one. I almost quit. But then I ran into a locksmith, who was a christian. He explained to me about my part in it all. Showed me that even though there were attorneys who lied, I didn't need to help God by lying in return.
(Not that I was lying in return, but was starting to think that maybe I should start lying in order to help God out.)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2187048 -

Skorpivo, there is an aspect of your statements with which I disagree, except you said "most".

The only thing that drives me to lie, when I do lie, is to not hurt someone's feelings. But this is in areas such as "how do you like my new hair cut", "does this outfit look good on me", etc.

I don't like to lie. So I will find a "truth" to tell in order to answer the question. "I love the way your bangs lay on your forehead." (Even if the rest of the hairstyle sucks.)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2187066 -

The premise that lying is based on fear fails to account for pathological liars. They lie when there is no reason to lie and when there is nothing to gain by doing so. They lie simply for the sake of lying. How is that based on fear?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Swami]
    #2187068 -

Let me put it this way, then...

Let's assume I am married to a wonderful man. We have a wonderful marriage. His job takes him on a weekend seminar. He has never cheated on me, but on this seminar, he succumbs, for whatever reason, to another woman.

He doesn't tell me about it, but for the rest of our lives together, he never does it again.

I get to live the rest of our lives in marital bliss, because I don't ever find out about the indiscretion.

An alternative: My spouse tells me about the indiscretion. Even though he never would have gone out on me again, we spend the rest of our lives with me in anxiety because I feel bad that he had an affair, and he "might" do it again.

Which is better?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

Edited by Frog (12/18/03 12:44 PM)

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2187080 -

Frog:
I tend to do that too...."lying with all truthfullness"...but Its not really lying, its just...telling my own perception of my own truth, everybody must find their own truth within themselves...I may not always tell the truth, but at least I'm honest :wink:




Silversoul:
Hence, I said "MOST"

Of course there's exceptions, such as to the "ab-normal" people, retarded, mentally deranged, pathological  psycopathic liars who lie incessantly without "thinking" about lying.

But, regardless, at the same time,  I still believe (believe is the keyword here) if you analyzed the very bottom basic fundamental drives behind the origins of lies in the human psychology, you will find fear, more or less, in one way, or another....I sincerely doubt that not a SINGLE ELEMENT of fear, (and I use the word fear, loosely) can be found in the subconscious controlling pathological liar's lies. While much of their mindless-lying-rambling may seem motivated by no cause in particular, that observation is a bit superficial and only validated on the "outside" The human brain is a very complex biomechanical computer with intricacies that we haven't fully gained complete understanding and knowledge of...So I'd be very doubtful to think that you wouldnt find not even a trace of any element of fear in any way, shape or form behind pathological lies. Again, this is just MY own hypothesis...


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Randolph_Carter]
    #2187094 -

Randolph Carter said:
i've been told that not telling someone a fact is a lie.
Don't know how it can be, seeing as i said nothing at all..


Ever wonder why, when you are about to testify, they ask you "will you tell the truth, the WHOLE truth, and nothing but the truth?"

I think that it is because the truth isn't the truth unless u get the whole body of evidence.

Does that mean "limiting aquisition of the information" is a LIE? Perhaps not, but for lack of a better term, one that encompases such an expression (as english is wont to render) Ima callit a lie.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2187105 -

A good example of "lying without lying" is Bush talking about WMD's to lead us into the Iraq war. He made sure to say "according to British intelligence" while IMPLYING, though not directly saying, that it was reliable intelligence.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2187127 -

Quote:
Frog said:

I get to live the rest of our lives in marital bliss, because I don't ever find out about the indiscretion...

Which is better?



Ever heard the expression "Living a lie." Weather it is the deluded or the deluder, life is lived in dishonesty.

You are counting up and weighing good vs. bad. Sure lie's are bad. Sure cheating is bad. Sure feeling bad about cheating is bad. Sure feeling bad about being cheated on is bad. BUT, if you are going to balance the justice to see which is the lesser evil, do it properly.

attach quantitative measurements to the "badness" of each. Then weigh it out, see which is worse. This is where it becomes subjective, there is no (or at least there doesn't seem to be, i haven't found it written on stone tablets anywhere :smile: ) universal sin measurement. How many EvilUnits is lying? Or the pain of having been cheated on. You see why it becomes subjective.

so, you're the one so keen on finding out which is preferable, let's see it.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers

Edited by recalcitrant (12/18/03 04:01 AM)

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2187141 -

Quote:
so, you're the one so keen on finding out which is preferable, let's see it.


What do you mean?

(I'm not trying to be difficult. I really don't understand your question.)


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2187149 -

Frog said:
Let me put it this way, then...

.

Which is better?


Everything is relative, eh? If you are going to decide which is better, I need to know which is worse: The pain of knowing you have been cheated on, or the lie that keeps said fact from being revealed.

I think that is your answer. Tough one tho.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: recalcitrant]
    #2187158 -

recalcitrant said:
Frog said:
Let me put it this way, then...

.

Which is better?


Everything is relative, eh? If you are going to decide which is better, I need to know which is worse: The pain of knowing you have been cheated on, or the lie that keeps said fact from being revealed.

I think that is your answer. Tough one tho.


I haven't been cheated on.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Liar, Liar [Re: Frog]
    #2187179 -

Well, excuse me (seriously) for being presumptuous. I hate it in others and I should be more carefull.

But you do understand, right? replace 'cheated on' with whatever atrocity it was (ooo what could it be??? :blush: :blush: ) and the math will work out.

the math always works itself out.


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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