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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Thought Experiment
    #20787843 -

Ok, this is a slight variation of the one OC proposed earlier.

Lets say we have a machine that is 3 light-years long, consisting of mechanically operated arms -- where on one end, we have a controller and on the other, 3 light-years away, we have the arms.

Will the controller be controlling the arms in real-time?

Or would it take 3 years for the arm to move?


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: hTx]
    #20787864 -

id say 3 years because the signal traveling through the machine cant move faster than light.

but then again i could be wrong :P

neat thought experiment though :cheers:

i visualize it as a long loading bar.


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My Drawingzz
Draw DMT!

Trip Report: SHROOMS DMT---- My Youtube Psychedelic Channel

Edited by SleepyE (11/03/14 02:18 PM)

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: SleepyE]
    #20787957 -

the arms would take 3 years to move. No matter what signal was being used, it would still have to move at or below the speed of light in a vacuum.


--------------------
I love growing things, and I love making things. I will always prefer drugs I have grown or made myself to those I have bought; the challenge of the manufacture makes the product all the sweeter.

Bucket list of drugs to produce:

Low tier: Cannabis, Caapi Vine, Chacruna, Coca, Ephedra Distachya, Kratom, Mimosa, Morning Glory, Opium, Psilocybe Galidoi, Salvia, Syrian Rue
Mid tier: Crack Rocks, Ephedrine, Freebase DMT & 5MeO-DMT, Freebase Mescaline, Peyote, Peruvian Torch, Psilocybe Cubensis, San Pedro, Tar Heroin
Top tier: Amanita Muscaria, Cocaine, Crystal Meth, Pan Cyans, Psilocybe Azurescens, Synthetic DMT & 5MeO-DMT, Synthetic Mescaline, White Heroin
God tier: Lysergic Acid Diethylamide

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: Aizen]
    #20794364 -

Hmm this is interesting.  I am reading a book called 'an equation that changed the world' and it is a discussion about the relativity theory between Newton and Einstein.  I am trying to think about this from what I have read so far. 

So lets think.  It will take 3 years for the signal to reach the arms as Aizen stated due to the fact that nothing can move faster than the speed of light.  But how could we tell if the signal ever reaches the arms?  A camera focused on the arms?  But then that would take at least another 3 years to send the signal back to where the controller resides in order to see the movement, same with if you had someone next to the arms that attempted to 'call/radio' back. 

It would be interesting to change the signal that moves down the arm to a human that moves at or near the speed of light to the arms to flip a switch.  While it would seem to take three years for the signal/switch man to get there to the observer stationed at the controller end, the signal/switch man would only feel as if he traveled for a few weeks or months most likely.  He could then return to the controller at the same speed he traveled at and for him he would have traveled for less than 3 years total.  The same idea is plausible if it were possible to attach a 'watch' to the signal that travels up and down said 3 light year long machine.

So could that mean that the signal/switch man could go and return before the arms even begin to move from the observation of the observer who stayed at rest at the controller? 

This book really has me thinking about time dilation and the such a lot, it is fun trying to 'expand' my mind to try and understand even the most basic concepts that are discussed.


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Walk where you like your steps

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: dodgem]
    #20794481 -

You have to realize that, although time has slowed for the traveling man, more time would have passed for everyone at the origin.  So, in effect, many more than three years would have passed -- remember, too, that he cannot travel at the speed of light, but only close to it.

There is no free lunch in physics, and you cannot travel backward in time, as far as we know.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #20795241 -

actually, the man moving out and back would still experience a ~6 year round trip.

As he travels away, he experiences time contraction (remote events appear to slow down) relative to the man standing at the origin, because he is racing in the same direction of the propagation of the origin's spacetime and thus making it propagate slower relative to his position.

As he returns, he experiences time dilation (remote events appear to speed up) relative to the origin, because he is racing in the opposite direction of the propagation of the origin's spacetime and thus making it propagate faster relative to his position.

the way time distorts depends on the direction you're going - and, indeed, which 'time' you're talking about.


--------------------
I love growing things, and I love making things. I will always prefer drugs I have grown or made myself to those I have bought; the challenge of the manufacture makes the product all the sweeter.

Bucket list of drugs to produce:

Low tier: Cannabis, Caapi Vine, Chacruna, Coca, Ephedra Distachya, Kratom, Mimosa, Morning Glory, Opium, Psilocybe Galidoi, Salvia, Syrian Rue
Mid tier: Crack Rocks, Ephedrine, Freebase DMT & 5MeO-DMT, Freebase Mescaline, Peyote, Peruvian Torch, Psilocybe Cubensis, San Pedro, Tar Heroin
Top tier: Amanita Muscaria, Cocaine, Crystal Meth, Pan Cyans, Psilocybe Azurescens, Synthetic DMT & 5MeO-DMT, Synthetic Mescaline, White Heroin
God tier: Lysergic Acid Diethylamide

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: dodgem]
    #20795320 -

A career is ten arm movements.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: Aizen]
    #20795758 -

Aizen said:
actually, the man moving out and back would still experience a ~6 year round trip.

As he travels away, he experiences time contraction (remote events appear to slow down) relative to the man standing at the origin, because he is racing in the same direction of the propagation of the origin's spacetime and thus making it propagate slower relative to his position.

As he returns, he experiences time dilation (remote events appear to speed up) relative to the origin, because he is racing in the opposite direction of the propagation of the origin's spacetime and thus making it propagate faster relative to his position.

the way time distorts depends on the direction you're going - and, indeed, which 'time' you're talking about.


That's right.  I wasn't clear -- the main point is that more than three years would pass at the origin, and there's no free lunch.  What dodgem was saying actually entails going backward in time.

If we wanted to get technical, if you think about it, time would slow down for the outside world relative to the man traveling in the ship as well.  In intertial frames, every frame of reference is equal.  So, just as the man's time appears to slow relative to stationary outsiders, so the outsiders' time would appear to slow relative to him, as we can say that they are moving at the same velocity with respect to his reference frame.

The way out of this puzzle is this:  acceleration.  Due to the dilating effects of acceleration, in a non-inertial reference frame, the man would actually be younger than his identical twin brother back at the origin when he got back.  If you look carefully, you can see that special relativity is not enough to explain this;  the accelerating reference frames of general relativity are required.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: hTx]
    #20800085 -

It would take 3 years for the signal to arrive at the arm, then the arm moves and again 3 years later the information arrives at the sender.
The feedback delay when you actually see what the arm is doing would be 6 years. Our brain's feedback delay is just a few milliseconds. And even then it's sometimes hard for it, to bring all those delayed signals together into our consciousness :laugh:
For our brains and consciousness, the 6 years would be quite impossible, that's why we only send 'code packs' that can be executed autonomously in space time distance, for the mars probe for example.
But who knows about larger brains and consciousnesses :grin:
Or maybe I'm totally wrong :lol:

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: hTx]
    #20800425 -

hTx said:
Ok, this is a slight variation of the one OC proposed earlier.

Lets say we have a machine that is 3 light-years long, consisting of mechanically operated arms -- where on one end, we have a controller and on the other, 3 light-years away, we have the arms.

Will the controller be controlling the arms in real-time?

Or would it take 3 years for the arm to move?



Instant transmission and receiving of signaling does exist & at faster then light speeds...though not for the technology presented in the example.

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: treesniper119]
    #20808552 -

It would actually take 3 years (if not more) because none of the particles in the machine are "touching" There is always space between every particle. So you're basically sending the signal from one particle to the next all along the 3-lightyear-long machine.

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Re: Thought Experiment [Re: treesniper119] * 1
    #20811129 -

treesniper119 said:
hTx said:
Ok, this is a slight variation of the one OC proposed earlier.

Lets say we have a machine that is 3 light-years long, consisting of mechanically operated arms -- where on one end, we have a controller and on the other, 3 light-years away, we have the arms.

Will the controller be controlling the arms in real-time?

Or would it take 3 years for the arm to move?



Instant transmission and receiving of signaling does exist & at faster then light speeds...though not for the technology presented in the example.


no


--------------------
I love growing things, and I love making things. I will always prefer drugs I have grown or made myself to those I have bought; the challenge of the manufacture makes the product all the sweeter.

Bucket list of drugs to produce:

Low tier: Cannabis, Caapi Vine, Chacruna, Coca, Ephedra Distachya, Kratom, Mimosa, Morning Glory, Opium, Psilocybe Galidoi, Salvia, Syrian Rue
Mid tier: Crack Rocks, Ephedrine, Freebase DMT & 5MeO-DMT, Freebase Mescaline, Peyote, Peruvian Torch, Psilocybe Cubensis, San Pedro, Tar Heroin
Top tier: Amanita Muscaria, Cocaine, Crystal Meth, Pan Cyans, Psilocybe Azurescens, Synthetic DMT & 5MeO-DMT, Synthetic Mescaline, White Heroin
God tier: Lysergic Acid Diethylamide

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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