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in here vs. out there * 1
    #19955928 -

Often on psychedelics, or during meditation, one experiences the realization that everything we perceive takes place inside of our heads.  That is, everything that is ostensibly "out there" is really going on in the circuitry of the brain.

However, it might be foolish to argue, even upon having this realization, that things aren't really out there, because, being as objective as possible, we have to posit an outside world -- if we are to retain our sanity.

So -- which perspective is better?  Which is closer to the truth?  That the objects of everyday experience really do take place in some mysterious "out there" which we cannot directly perceive?  Or that we are simply seeing the circuits of our brains all the time, and the concept of "out there" is an artificial one?


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19956340 -

reminds me of the idea of biocentrism - have you happened to come across that before? might be interesting for you to check out, it deals with this problem i think :smile:


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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19956432 -

Quote:
in some mysterious "out there" which we cannot directly perceive


This nonsense comes up on here all too often. What do you mean by direct perception?


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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19956490 -

I mean that if all that is ever going on are processes in our nervous systems, and therefore that everything we perceive is an operation in our brain circuitry, we are never directly perceiving reality, but only a virtual representation or "inner show" of it.  I believe it's called the "catastrophe of the infinite regress."

I mean, for example, colors do not exist.  They are a subjective representation in our brains of certain frequencies of visible light.  So essentially what is "out there," if we can meaningfully talk about it, is just a vibrating smattering of gray.  But even this vibrating smattering of gray is not really out there, because, if it were, it would be subject to perception by the brain.  So what's out there?  This is the essence of the infinite regress.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19956724 -

Yeah I agree 100% it's an 'inner show'. Very obvious on mushrooms.

I don't think there is a reality SEPARATE from your nervous system. This is a bizarre situation, I confess.


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My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19956847 -

Thanks for totally failing to answer the question.


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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19956931 -

Reality could be anything. Perhaps we are not even what we think we are. Maybe we're actually mushrooms growing in the woods. :shrug:

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19956967 -

It appears to be mixture of both as a point where mind and matter are not separate. If that makes sense..there is an objective else out there,
Things we cannot know. Events we have no control over, and thus reality is never concrete.

But there is also a self, "i", the ironic nature of self is we all have one.
multiple "i"s all really one, its a seeming paradox but speaks to the non-locality of
"I".
"I" leak into the out-there, as the out-there is "I" as well.
Just how limited is the imagination?,
  perhaps that is objectivity, and that is another reason reality is not concrete, as we as a whole find the limits and overcome them. First with a dream.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

Edited by hTx (05/08/14 12:24 AM)

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: hTx]
    #19957014 -

Quote:
thus reality is never concrete


Please explain.


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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19957150 -

There are knowns, unknowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns, all of these lead to
And have led to major reality changes throughout all-time, as this is what time is, change, and we
Inhabit space-time and are therefore apart of this change.
Since our reality also inhabits a mental construct, it appears ourselves must be included as apart of reality.

  We change with the times and the times with us.
As we find reality, objectivity, we strive to overcome it.
We were once limited to earth, a seemingly concrete reality.
And  until we sent man to space with the technology boom of the 20th century,
It was.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: hTx]
    #19957174 -

Nothing like a good word salad saying nothing.


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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19957204 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Nothing like a good word salad saying nothing.


Words are an example of my above explanation.
With the alphabet, we have known letters, with known rules.
with language, there are knowns with known rules. Yet these knowns
Introduce potential unknowns, unknown rules, unknown sentence and letter structure, concepts.
And these known unknowns cause unknown unknowns, perhaps a new language,
Poetry, music, stories..you never know what's next, if I write a story of my own creation,
And we compare this story to a universe, reality, the first-time experiencer of the story cannot
Predict accurately the words to which this reality depends on, there is no concreteness, until known.


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

Edited by hTx (05/08/14 01:57 AM)

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: hTx]
    #19957226 -

:blah:


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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #19957236 -

What is the " truth" if we are to retain our "sanity"
-whatever is socially/culturally accepted.


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And thus begins the  reverse-fusing of our one-dimentional understanding, and adds ever-expanding perspectives, in depth and number; splitting our perception, and in so doing, seemingly irrationally, creates yet more one-ness, with all that ever was, is and will ever be, streching across the infinite, inunderstood concept of everything, percievable and not.

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19957242 -

you cant see how far you are saying the opposite from being a will ..

you want to get to feel really free out of everything you could know and see ..

but this will means to be fake one .. as if you could get an absolute sense of detachment from reality for granted out of being you real conscious being while you never did realize anything not even yourself ..

it is clear how you are meaning to abuse negative knowledge for any excuse you might justify through, your will

objective truth is real .. so any is real but also free .. while freedom is the superior fact out of being real .. so you must realize something to get to be free till it becomes more conscious free realizations and then freedom realizations and then free reality ..

but objectively of course reality exist .. it is not for you because you don't realize anything so actually you are not free ..
being part of reality you cant see it but partially

like you surely can see how you can hurt yourself and how what you might do on things or others is real ..

you might not see how to deal with reality as a whole from outside, because you want to get power over all from your god and for granted like a conscious seat for your fancies on ruling over things ..

which prove how on the contrary, you are proving reality hundred percent since it is obvious how you are stuck in being a part of some reality you cant avoid ..

the fact that your conscious state is not hundred percent true self state .. is what prove also reality ..
being conscious state is related to some connections with something else reality.. this is how the conscious represent ultimately a present freedom of being

the fact that you are conscious of you being stuck in whatever reality.. and able to put it in words out of whatever situation you can explain .. prove how freedom exist definitely ..

also the issue you want to reverse .. is what the reality you mean is else reality .. by meaning to perceive reality from outside you are meaning to see something else then you
but if objective reality exist, then else being is true .. so reality cannot be a thing that you might look at as a whole as if it is nothing that you can watch

and when realizing something is prior to the sense of being free .. then not admitting being part of reality as something being yourself would blind your eyes from any sense of being free

it is the same reason of all wrong that you share with your gods .. you cannot take advantage of truth .. positive truth means being present so whatever free and conscious is first the only positive reference there

truth is objective .. the word objective doesn't mean that it can be seen .. it means that whatever you can think being you, must be true first .. so the more you want something the more it would be the reality of it from you as the exclusive fact you can reach to see

Edited by absols (05/08/14 02:17 AM)

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19957283 -

when I am meditating, I am following the breath as fairly as possible, and being aware of mental contents which includes, sensations, perceptions, ideas/memory fragments, and if I trip out on any mental contents (such as by turning my head when a sound occurs, or watching a piece of paper flutter, or thinking how soft her touch was), then I begin again to follow the breath, and regain a perspective towards the mental contents arising and passing away (the arbitrary center of being for this perspective is following the breath)

this is what I think you are referring to:
some perspective towards one thing that encompasses both internal and external.

internal and external mixes on the mind-stage, and it relates to where one is in the world in the moment.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19957303 -

DividedQuantum said:
Often on psychedelics, or during meditation, one experiences the realization that everything we perceive takes place inside of our heads.  That is, everything that is ostensibly "out there" is really going on in the circuitry of the brain.

However, it might be foolish to argue, even upon having this realization, that things aren't really out there, because, being as objective as possible, we have to posit an outside world -- if we are to retain our sanity.

So -- which perspective is better?  Which is closer to the truth?  That the objects of everyday experience really do take place in some mysterious "out there" which we cannot directly perceive?  Or that we are simply seeing the circuits of our brains all the time, and the concept of "out there" is an artificial one?


I have never felt what you think, ESPECIALLY when psychedelicizing!! This fucked up soul-dead, culture which bows down to the Church of Scientism very MUCH insists that 'consciousness is in the brain'.

The co-called "the 33-year-old whizz kid of psychedelic research." Dr Robin Carhart-Harris who does 'scientific studies' of people who have taken psilocybin, MDMA etc also insists that consciousness is in-the-brain. He has calimed he has never taken psychedelics because he wants to remain 'scientifically objective'. Hmmmmmmm
This mindset freaks if there is any mention of consciousness, and gawwwd forbid you should say 'spirit', OUT THERE!. In their universe 'out there' is without any consciousness. So their toxic myth is we are all supposed to be prisoners in our skulls totally cut off from spiritual dynamic interrelationship with all the out there including all the universe---whatever 'all' means

But I am glad to say have never believed this myth because it is utterly absurd.

This theory makes far more sense to me, and is very complimentary with psychedelic experience:

Extended Minds: The Mental Fields Within & Beyond Our Brains

Edited by zzripz (05/08/14 02:46 AM)

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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: zzripz]
    #19957318 -

Saying "Out there!" does not frighten the materialist. What frightens him is people proclaiming it without a lick of evidence because it 'feels right' or has some emotional appeal.

Your link contains no theory whatsoever. It is to be expected that you would cite a quack whose experiments have not been duplicated nor has his work been published in a reputable journal to back up your nonsense.

Why not link to Marvel Comics?


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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #19957324 -

ahaaaaa you you admit your frightened!


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Re: in here vs. out there [Re: zzripz]
    #19957341 -

Of course. Irrationality leads to all kinds of nasty things.


Morphic resonance is just a gibberish term which is why several of you think highly of it.

Who here can tell us why Sheldrake's telepathic dogs experiments have never been replicated with tight variable controls?


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