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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: Kickle]
    #19630452 -

"Scientific realism" isnt science.  You cannot test it, it makes no predictions.  Yes, scientists can have a philosophy along those line, they can also deny it.  That is the case for everybody.  It makes no difference to actual science (that is, actual scientific theories and experiments).  The quantum "revolution" a hundred years ago pretty much killed the notion that scientific realism can be shown to be "right" within science.  In the famous Bohr Einstein debates I vies Einstein's position as a holdout for scientific realism.  He did not win.

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: DieCommie] * 3
    #19630547 -

I always find it strange when people separate science out as some pure ideal. Not because I can't see it that way, but because it has no basis in what is occurring in practice. Science does not exist independently somehow. It's tangled up in a whole lot. To separate it out from all the other factors that are at play seems like some sort of protective measure. To keep it mentally pure or something when that purity simply doesn't exist.

Anyone can exclude what they don't like from their definition but that doesn't mean it isn't happening :shrug:

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: Kickle]
    #19630611 -

I find it strange that people try to add mysticism and personal philosophy into science as though its not some ideal. That has no basis in what is occurring in scientist's labs and desks.

It seems like you and other science skeptics/mystics want to tangle it up despite the hard work many people over many generations spent untangling mysticism from science.

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: DieCommie]
    #19630872 -

I can't speak for anyone but myself. I have a degree and have practiced science in a lab. I don't want it to be the way it is, I'm merely making observations. I have found no where that the ideal of science exists and operates independently.

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: Kickle]
    #19630918 -

What does that have to do with the topic of the thread?  Were those dogmas actually taught or used in your lab?

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: DieCommie]
    #19630924 -

My first post was directly responding to you. My following post was directed at the OP. The third post was another response to a specific poster. The forth, directly responding to you. The fifth as well.

If you want a response to the OP, read my second post in this thread. I'm still waiting for someone to address it. I think I'm the only person besides the OP who watched the talk and put into context what was being said rather than guessing :shrug:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: Kickle]
    #19631183 -

Sheldrake says:

Quote:
In the book Sheldrake proposes a number of questions as the theme of each chapter which seek to elaborate on his central premise that science is predicated on the belief that the nature of reality is fully understood, with only minor details needing to be filled in. This "delusion" is what Sheldrake argues has turned science into a series of dogmas grounded in philosophical materialism rather than an open-minded approach to investigating phenomena. He argues that there are many powerful taboos that circumscribe what scientists can legitimately direct their attention towards.[29]:6–12 The mainstream view of modern science is that it proceeds by methodological naturalism and does not require philosophical materialism.[70]




--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: circastes]
    #19631210 -

And did you guys watch the video?

Please watch the whole video before leaving a comment.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: circastes]
    #19631399 -

circastes said:
And did you guys watch the video?

Please watch the whole video before leaving a comment.



I watched the whole video.  The idea that a rat in NYC could learn something and transmit that knowledge to a rat in Tokyo via "morphic resonance??" seems well kind of silly.  Now, were the rat a migratory bird in a flock perhaps.  But otherwise, what is the real mode of communication?


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: Kickle]
    #19631618 -

Kickle said:
I always find it strange when people separate science out as some pure ideal. Not because I can't see it that way, but because it has no basis in what is occurring in practice. Science does not exist independently somehow. It's tangled up in a whole lot. To separate it out from all the other factors that are at play seems like some sort of protective measure. To keep it mentally pure or something when that purity simply doesn't exist.

Anyone can exclude what they don't like from their definition but that doesn't mean it isn't happening :shrug:



This.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: deCypher]
    #19631689 -

Thats exactly the kind of vague, equivocating rebuttal I would expect from a mystic.  Looks good on the surface, but really says nothing at all.

If you and Kickle are really unable to separate out the behavior of scientists with the philosophy of science then you are hopeless.  I dont believe that is the case though. I think its willful defense of mysticism.

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: DieCommie]
    #19631770 -

I don't see his response as being vague at all.

Scientists are human, after all.  They are expected to adhere to the scientific method, to be sure, but their choice of pet theories and the level of incredulity/favoritism that comes into rejection/support of various hypotheses are all plenty subjective.  You can't deny that, at least--scientists are not robots, dispassionately weighing explanation vs. explanation with absolutely no bias present.  :lol:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: deCypher]
    #19631791 -

No I dont deny that.  I dont see that claim as relevant.  In that sense, I think his response is vague with respect to the point at hand.  (irrelevant would probably be a better word)

The speaker in the video is a scientist isnt he?


A circle is also an ideal.  The fact that we can only approximate it in nature does not make it a square.  Science as a descriptor and predictor of observations is an ideal.  The fact that some scientists take those observation to be reality does not change the ideal of science.

I'm skeptical that the notion and validity of "reality" was ever discussed in Kickle's lab with respect to their research.  It never was in any of my research groups, conferences, textbooks, etc.


edit - I now recall a discussion I had about "reality" of things in physics.  In some text book there was a brief excerpt about whether the magnetic vector potential was "real" or a mathematical construct.  Of course this was just a musing by the writer and not relevant to any derivation, postulate or theorem.

Edited by DieCommie (02/28/14 07:01 PM)

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: circastes]
    #19631899 -

On the first Day of Dogma
My true love gave to me:

A white laboratory coat.

On the second Day of Dogma
My true love gave to me:

Two Bunsen burners and
A white laboratory coat.


--------------------

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #19632130 -

A circle is also an ideal.  The fact that we can only approximate it in nature does not make it a square.

Nope, but if someone says that the circles we see in nature are not circles because they do not match the ideal, then I'm going to tell them they need to quit neglecting the circle in front of them in favor of an ideal.

People claim that science is not these imperfections because science is [insert idealized version here]. But that's not what plays out. Science in action is not ideal.


I'm skeptical that the notion and validity of "reality" was ever discussed in Kickle's lab with respect to their research.  It never was in any of my research groups, conferences, textbooks, etc.


Maintaining close contact with reality has been a defining characteristic of mental health for quite some time. Reality is a construct that has to be discussed in psychology :shrug:


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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PROPAGANDA [Re: Kickle]
    #19633597 -

political interests which are usually greed or revolt against the successful by the less greedy
are replete  with dogma:
- the attribution of conjured "laws" to authorities that never really created the dogma in the first place. i.e. PROPAGANDA

those interests will pay to have people with credentials publicly perjure themselves by declaring the fake dogmas as real.

to back that up in court we have expert witnesses who are hardly worth a penny spouting any convenient bullshit.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: PROPAGANDA [Re: redgreenvines]
    #19634624 -

redgreenvines said:
political interests which are usually greed or revolt against the successful by the less greedy
are replete  with dogma:
- the attribution of conjured "laws" to authorities that never really created the dogma in the first place. i.e. PROPAGANDA

those interests will pay to have people with credentials publicly perjure themselves by declaring the fake dogmas as real.

to back that up in court we have expert witnesses who are hardly worth a penny spouting any convenient bullshit.





--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #19634705 -

DividedQuantum said:
If one replaces "dogma of science" with "materialism" things begin to make more sense.

Materialism, n.  a theory that physical matter is the only or fundamental reality and that all being and processes and phenomena can be explained as manifestations or results of matter



Or, ten traits of materialism?

Agree. Science is a method, materialism is a philosophy  :shrug:

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: Repertoire89]
    #19636238 -

:whathesaid:  :whathesaid:

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Re: The Ten Dogmas of Science [Re: circastes]
    #19636270 -

circastes said:
Sheldrake says:

Quote:
In the book Sheldrake proposes a number of questions as the theme of each chapter which seek to elaborate on his central premise that science is predicated on the belief that the nature of reality is fully understood, with only minor details needing to be filled in. This "delusion" is what Sheldrake argues has turned science into a series of dogmas grounded in philosophical materialism rather than an open-minded approach to investigating phenomena. He argues that there are many powerful taboos that circumscribe what scientists can legitimately direct their attention towards.[29]:6–12 The mainstream view of modern science is that it proceeds by methodological naturalism and does not require philosophical materialism.[70]





This is a gross misunderstanding of science and amongst leading scientists. Science claims only what we can observe, test, and repeat. The further we have pushed science, the more we realize the less we know. Scientists won't make the same mistake they made at the beginning of the 20th century:

Quote:
The more important fundamental laws and facts of physical science have all been discovered, and these are now so firmly established that the possibility of their ever being supplanted in consequence of new dis- coveries is exceedingly remote. . . . Our future discoveries must be looked for in the sixth place of decimals. -Albert Michelson 1894



Quote:
There is nothing new to be discovered in physics now. All that remains is more and more precise measurement. William Thomson 1904



Modern science even holds it that there may be information about the fundamental truth to the universe that we may never attain due to the limits forced on us by our location in spacetime. Say for example, our existence is placed so many billions of years in the future that the expansion of the universe has progressed to the point that we no longer see any evidence of stars or matter in the skies beyond our galaxy. Scientists would conclude our galaxy to be the whole universe. However, we know today that that is untrue. In the same case today, there may be information we simply do not have access to. And there are so many fundamental questions still yet unanswered, exponentially more so as time passes.

The idea that science fully understands the nature of reality is preposterous and betrays any actual knowledge of modern science and its direction.

Edited by ohcrapitsnico (03/01/14 06:52 PM)

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