Home | Community | Message Board


RVF Garden Supply
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Dogma Sucks. Not to offend or annoy...
    #762116 - 07/20/02 01:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There seems to be a lot of religious talk going on here lately. Good points have been made by those that subscribe to religion and by those with a particular distaste for religion.

-= DISCLAIMER =-
1. It seems like people are taking things personally a little too much. When trying to communicate with those of different if not opposing views, it is important to keep the ego out of the battle. Unless you think not accomplishing anything is a good thing?
Signs of too much ego include pre-emptive ad hominem attacks, veiled insults, et cetera.

2. Most of us here are from the United States or some other English-speaking place. Christianity (no matter what denomination) is undoubtedly the most prevalent religion. As such, it can be labeled the religion of ?The Majority?. Seeing as how most of us in here are of the slightly subversive type (read ?the minority?), it should be no surprise that Christianity is often condemned by some of us. If Islam was the main religion of the western world, I?m sure it would receive its fair share of our (some of us) blows.
IF THIS IS CLEAR, read on.
.
.
.
.
.
Although ritual per se is not the harbinger of dogma, I do see ritual as a potential hazard. I was raised in a very conservative, ritual-laden Lutheran church. It was almost Catholic. We spoke the same prayers over and over. We had to memorize creeds and canons for confirmation. We drank ?the body and the blood? of Christ every other Sunday for communion. I came to this presumably holy place at least once a week to ask a higher power to forgive me for not being perfect. I knew the congregation VERY well. I grew up with all the kids and went to school with them and even hung out with them outside of the church?s youth group.

I began to notice (I think I was 13) that the people around me thought about church differently. They would binge and purge. They?d knowingly/intentionally ?sin? Monday through Saturday and then they?d ?cleanse? themselves on Sunday. To me, this was not the message in the Bible. I read it differently. I also noticed that the young people/old people ratio was incredibly skewed. There were MANY more old people than young people. Why was that? I?d listen to these people talk. Many ?found God? very late in life? when death was knocking on their door. I wondered, ?Why was that??
I think you see where I?m going with this.

I?ve also talked to countless other people of different religions who have similar complaints about people just ?going through the motions?. This is partially why I dislike dogma.

The other part of my aversion to dogma is that it arbitrarily establishes authority. This kind of authority has NEVER been perfect (has any authoritative body ever been perfect?), yet always has the power to interfere with others? lives; usually by limiting their freedom in one way or another BEFORE there was a reason to do so (I think limiting the freedom of people who commit murder is a good thing). So, I feel that any support of a dogmatic establishment is a true sin against freedom.

I know some of you find much comfort and truth in certain religious texts. And I think that following the teachings of a religious text is not necessarily a bad thing. However, when you identify yourself with a religious group who knowingly and dogmatically spit out their interpretation of these same religious texts, then you?re labeling yourself fair game and you?re sure to be in someone?s crosshairs.


I trust you?ve all read my disclaimer.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineAdamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
Male User Gallery

Registered: 11/24/01
Posts: 10,211
Loc: Bloomington, IN
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Dogma Sucks. Not to offend or annoy... [Re: Sclorch]
    #762231 - 07/20/02 02:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with you except on this:
When you identify yourself with a religious group who knowingly and dogmatically spit out their interpretation of these same religious texts, then you're labeling yourself fair game and you're sure to be in someone's crosshairs.

While it is important to get people to question their beliefs, I think the act of degrading someone because of their particular beliefs is Ego-driven. There are those who think for themselves and belong to a religion. Just because you say your a Christian doesn't mean you fit in with the majority of hypocritical blind-followers who seem to pervade Christianity these days.


--------------------
:heartpump: { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } } :heartpump:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Dogma Sucks. Not to offend or annoy... [Re: Sclorch]
    #762288 - 07/20/02 02:56 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I understand your resentment towards dogmatism, and I agree with it.
But I think you are guilty of doing the same things you are trying to avoid in your disclaimer.. specifically this line - Signs of too much ego include pre-emptive ad hominem attacks, veiled insults, et cetera.

Perhaps if you approached people with their dogmatism in a more lighthearted manner, instead of basically mocking them.. you would recieve a better response, instead of this back and forth ego driven attacks.

I think though, that this post is a good step in that direction.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Dogma Sucks. Not to offend or annoy... [Re: Sclorch]
    #762341 - 07/20/02 03:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No offense taken, in case you were wondering.

I have a question instead.

Why is this important to you?



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Dogma Sucks. Not to offend or annoy... [Re: ]
    #763436 - 07/20/02 10:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Why is this important to you?

If more people (i.e. the majority, or close to it) in this world were truly open-minded (i.e. subscribe to NO dogma), then this place would be even MORE fun. Sure, we'll still have sadness and stuff to be bitter about (I didn't say I want a utopia, but c'mon this AIN'T close to a utopia) and there will still be a few turds out there, but overall... more free-thinkers = less oppression (no drug war) = more fun.

I really don't think this could be argued against, but have at it if you think that those "ideals" suck.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/08/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
Re: Dogma Sucks. Not to offend or annoy... [Re: ]
    #763557 - 07/21/02 12:20 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I agree with both Sclorch and Shroomism.

I really climbed out on a limb on this one.
The cynical like to believe they are not ego-driven.
But it's so obvious to me.
Maybe because I'm ego-driven and want to compete with the sclorch's and shroomisms of the world.
And the Swamis.
They say even the saints derive pleasure from seeing all the souls squirm in hell.

Even cynics have their own dogMa.
The mother of all dogs is ego.
i.e:I got it all figured out.
One cannot escape it.

Science likes to pretend it has no dogma.
We figured all that shit out.
Just believe in us and all will be well.
As if theories aren't theories and overturned all the time.
It doesn't exist so why investigate??
We know all there is to know.

It usually takes a generation for a new model of reality to take hold.
Why?
Because these "objective" scientists have their egos entangled in their theories and
must DIE for a new model to be born.

DIE, dinosaurs die!!!!


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Dogma Sucks. Not to offend or annoy... [Re: Sclorch]
    #763676 - 07/21/02 02:46 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

So I take it that you equate fun with happiness?

Do you think it is possible to be happy while your freedoms are limited?

I live in America were my freedom is limited and yet I am happy and at peace. Surely there could be more freedom here but I do not blame the limitation of my freedom for any bitterness or sadness that I have felt.

If a country, society, or culture were extremely oppressive it would be more difficult to be happy. But that is not the case in America. We enjoy more freedoms than many people do.

There is a great book by Dr. Douglas N. Husak called Drugs and Rights that outlines the issue of drugs. He argues that the "war on drugs" violates the moral rights of adults who want to use drugs for pleasure and that criminal laws against such use are incompatible with moral rights. The book is a philosophical work that is easy to read and useful to those interested in applied ethics and law.

Cheers,


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
Male User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 12,756
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 9 hours, 20 minutes
Re: Dogma Sucks. Not to offend or annoy... [Re: Sclorch]
    #763842 - 07/21/02 06:37 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

In order to establish a 'church,' of like-minded individuals (which has its pros and cons), one has to codify a number of tenets. The real problem is that people have tended to imbue their doctrines with such 'numinosity' that the doctrines have become fixed dogmata that are treated like the Holy Object themselves. To then contradict or disagree with a set formula, is 'blasphemy!,' 'anathema!,' 'heresy!,' and one is then punished ('corrected'). Since I am of the belief that 'power corrupts,' and that perverse people use power in the service of sex, and sex in the service of power, all kinds of heavy sadistic practices are able to be practiced by the perverts who have gotten into the very seats of power. Witch hunts, torture, execution, burnings at the stake, persecutions in general, have always been sadistically motivated and labelled as other things by perverse churchmen.

Frankly, the only time I ever raised a fist and my voice in protest, was when Coca-Cola changed THEIR formula. Now THAT was a terrible violation, but fortunately, they recanted and changed back to the original. All was well and forgiven .

Lots of people don't know how doctrines changed over time. Most Shroomerites aren't historians, and neither am I, but even the doctrine against abortion was a complicated thing originally. It was permissable 40 days after conception for girls and 30 days after conception for boys (more of a chance to abort girls because the 'soul' was believed to enter the female body at a later date). Eventually, the doctrine changed to say that the soul entered the 'child' at the time of conception (which was believed to be at the moment of male climax, even though it takes 3 days for sperm to swim to the egg). No margin for abortion. These metaphysical doctrines were shaped by political forces more than moral or metaphysical ones, and became dogma. Violation reulted in punishment of death.

Adherence to literal, fundamental scriptural wording is the correlated problem. Saint Paul said it was a shame for a man to wear his hair long, but that it was a glory for the woman. Now, everything that Paul wrote, firstly, wasn't from Paul, but besides that, he was writng letters of encouragement to struggling churches. He was not intending to write Holy Scripture. He used the Old Testament. He also said that he was writing "by permission, not commandment" which essentially meant 'IMHO.' For hundreds of years, people have read these letters as if everything said was from God Himself. This was never the intention of the writers, it became the interpretation of 'followers.'

I cannot find an established church that I would be comfortable in. The ancient Gnostics were accused of being a hidden 5th column, that seemed to be Christians, but held heretical beliefs in their hearts. I identify with them primarily because like many Shroomerites from Fundamentalist Christian to Muslim - psychedelics have become a great Mystery in the midst of one's faith. If I were an extravert, I might form my own church at home. NOT, BTW, for donations but for a close sense of community - the original purpose for a church. Our 'ritual' might be in the taking of a mushroom, which would make us outlaws, forced to practice in hiding like the Roman christians in the catacombs beneath Rome. A few words would be devised to go along with the eating, to establish the mind 'set' that we all recognize as an integral part of the trip. And dogma would surely follow. That is, if you came over to partake, you would have to agree to some rules, like while members are lying down on a vision-quest, Thou Shalt Not Take Off Thy Clothes and Run Around the House. If you transgressed this rule (because it made certain intellectual types uncomfortable with your visceral behaviors), you would become 'Excommunicado,' thrown out of the house/church until you could return with an apology (ask forgiveness) and be admitted. No persecution in my church/house, just exile

Dogma is just an inevitable consequence of organization, but reorganization should occur. Revolutions should occur. As Bishiop J.S. Spong entitled his book:
'Christianity Must Change or Die.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleWorld Spirit
PNW
 User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/27/01
Posts: 9,817
Re: Dogma Sucks. Not to offend or annoy... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #763920 - 07/21/02 07:46 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Deleted by admin


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Dogma
( 1 2 all )
niteowl 1,481 28 07/06/05 06:35 PM
by Huehuecoyotl
* Not meant to offend anyone
( 1 2 all )
orion 2,035 28 03/03/04 01:28 PM
by fireworks_god
* Being dogmatic contradicts being intelligent.
implicitli
988 14 02/23/07 03:39 AM
by implicitli
* origins of dogma capliberty 659 6 06/28/06 05:17 AM
by slaphappy
* The Dogmatic Tendencies of LaVeyan Satanism it stars saddam 2,845 12 03/03/06 05:15 PM
by MushmanTheManic
* Dogma Means Contradiction
( 1 2 all )
Sclorch 1,209 20 03/06/06 04:31 PM
by Sclorch
* Is Spirituality rigid and dogmatic or fluid and dynamic? whiterasta 521 6 01/02/05 03:23 PM
by soulmotion
* Dogma for the People GazzBut 676 10 08/07/03 05:31 PM
by GazzBut

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
1,584 topic views. 3 members, 9 guests and 14 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Shroom Supply
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.055 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 14 queries.