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The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips Thread * 4
    #19396801 -

I thought I would start a thread for people to post there propagating and grafting setups.

With the discussions recently regarding different lights and growing mediums that people use and the positive and negative aspects of the different setups including set up costs and ongoing costs.
What I would like is for people to post factual information that is not just hearsay or assumptions. If we follow these simple rules then this thread might just offer some useful information for new and old growers alike.

When I started out sowing my first seeds and doing my first grafts I could only go off the information that was available on the net and most of this info came from a few different forums one being the Shroomery. Luckily for me that info was good info and it got me off to a relatively positive start. My set ups were small but did what I needed them to do. Any issues that I had were down to me not what I was using.

I am now I believer in having to adjust your setup to suit your environment, where you grow, cost, time and space restrictions. I have now adjusted my grow area to suit my lifestyle which involves limited time with work and family commitments and also to suit the conditions inside of a multi use shed where my grow area is housed.

My initial setup involved a Propagation box made out of to big plastic tubs one as the base and the other was hinged to it as a lid. Screwed to the inside of the lid was a double 2 foot fluro fixture. This was manly used to propagate Pere and to keep new grafts for there first week.


My first shelving unit was a 2 shelf 2 foot long 1 foot deep unit which was fitted with a double fluro fixture on each shelf. I actually still use this shelf now the only changes that have been made is it is insulated to some degree and the top shelf can be closed in totally with a swing down door. The bottom shelf now has a small heat mat setup to germinate seeds.


My next move was to build three 4 foot shelves ( 250mm deap with single and then twin fluros for each shelf ) which could be enclosed with doors to keep the heat in during winter and I was able to keep my temps around 20 – 25 deg C with the lights on through winter. It wasn’t long before I had run out of space yet again and so I built the setup that I am using now.


Space issues was always going to be a problem so I made a decision to change all of my pots that I was using inside to square pots and to also reduce the size of the pots that I was using. I had been using 100 to 120mm round pots and I went down to 89mm square which not only saved space but used space that was wasted before.I also made the change a little later to 50mm pots for pere / grafts.

My new grow area is a separate room/ closet built inside of my shed it is 1200mm x 1800. I have two shelving units inside both which are 1200mm long and 400mm deep and 1830mm high each unit has 3 shelves lit with 4 foot fluros. All but one has twin fluros and the other has three.
This time last year I moved all of my cacti on there own roots out into my new greenhouse and so now these shelves are dedicated to propagation and grafting.



Please add your own setups and thoughts

Cheers
Got


--------------------

Edited by GoOnThen (01/11/14 08:16 AM)

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: GoOnThen]
    #19396804 -

Grafting Stock and grafting

I am not going to get into how I graft as I believe I do the basics much the same as most other people/
First of a couple of observations regarded Pere. If you give them heat, water and some soil they will grow. What you don't want to do is cook them under the blazing sun or high powered lights and forget about the let the soil dry out cacti rule.
I plant my pere deep in there pots as they will shoot roots out from all areas under the soil not just at the bottom


Pere are survivors
I cut a heap of grafting stock that had got to long and stacked them into a couple of trays as I didn't have time to deal with them at the time. I gave them a misting of water and placed another tray on top and then forgot about them for a couple of weeks.
This what I found when I took the top trays off.


I now am using 50mm square pots for my pere stock which are filled with a standard store bought cacti mix. I make a wire mesh support to stop them falling over that fits inside of a solid tray (350mm x 300mm )that takes 30 pots. In the bottom of the tray I place a mat ( pots sit on top ) that works as I basic capillary mat. Having this mat in the bottom of the tray means I only have to water once or twice a week and I just pore water into the tray and its taken up from the bottom of the pots. Because I never need to take the pots out of the tray and the mat has some moister in it the pere will actually send roots down into it.
I have now been running this setup for around 12 months.


I made a decision a while ago that I no longer wanted my grafts at all different heights so I started cutting at the same length. This ended up being a positive in a number of ways. One being that you don't have height issues with lights ( unless you are grafting columnar cacti ) also they all get the same amount of light especially if you are stacking them in close together. I also have found that letting the Pere grow to around the same height before cutting them to use I also get the tops all around the same height to use as cuttings for the next tray and so by doing a tray of grafts I start another tray of cuttings. :smile:

I found measuring and cutting a pain even using a gauge to measure was a help but when you do a tray at a time it still wasn't as efficient as I wanted it to be so I made my little cutting stand made out of 316 stainless steel. :cool:



I now pre cut the whole tray and then take a slice off the top five at a time ( replacing the slice ) and the graft onto those and repeat.

It take max of five minutes to cut 30 Pere. :smile:


I like to use full razor blades as I find them easier to hold and seem to be sharper than others that I have tried. I spray my blades and wipe with paper towel between each cut. The other tool is what I use to hook the small seeding out of there pots.

The whole tray then goes into a tub with a little water in the bottom for a week or so. This is kept in my grow room but not under direct light for that week.


Cheers
Got

Edited by GoOnThen (01/11/14 10:19 AM)

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: GoOnThen]
    #19396808 -

Seed and seedlings
Ok again I am not going to go through the basics as this has been covered many times. What I am going to cover are issues that I had when I started out and tools and tips and the way I do things now.

I wash and pre sieve all of my different additives that I use for my mixes and keep them in plastic tubs.

My seed raising mix that I am using now consists of Zeolite, diatomaceous earth, course sand, coir and seedraising mix with the organic parts only making up about 20%

One of the best things with using this mix is it has a noticeable color change between wet and dry.
I had been adding a layer of course diatomaceous earth ( D.E., diatomite ) or similar after my seedlings were up. This was mainly to stand them up as many grew on there sides and even upside down but it was very time consuming.

Now I am putting a layer down on top of my mix and then sowing the seeds on top. This is working a lot better as most of my recent seedlings are all growing up the right way. :smile: The only thing I do after I have sown the seeds is to just knock any seeds that are sitting on top of the course covering down into the gaps


I have been using a slightly different way of keeping my seedlings in humidity recently. This is not my idea it is from an exceptional Australian grower that posts at the Australian cacti forum and the cacti guide. I wont mention his name here but his posts are not hard to find.

Ok here goes. .

He has been using what he calls a wet box this is basically a clear plastic tub with a capillary mat in the bottom. I have been following his setup as close as I can and this involves starting the seeds in pots in  enclosed propagation trays on a heat mat. Once the seeds have all germinated the pots are moved into the wet boxes.

Water is added to the capillary mat as required to keep the pots moister levels up. When it is time to bring them out of high humidity you just remove the lid and continue to water via the mat. Once you have been using the mats for a while you have a good idea about how much water you need to add to wet the pots through.

This system is very basic but what it has done for me is take a lot of the guess work out of watering as once the pots are wet through I just wait for them to dry and then wet the mat again wait a day and if the top layer of the pot isn't wet ( DE changes color ) add more water.

The hardest thing for me to get this set up was finding capillary matting over here. I started using chucks wipes which worked surprisingly well but I had to use a number of layers. I have ended up using the felt type material used for furniture packing (furniture removals )

The only other thing I had to do was drill more holes in the bottom of my pots. If the right style of pots are purchased then this would be unnecessary but I had already bought a few hundred pots so I drill holes. :smile:

Propagation box on heat mat


Wet-boxes on the shelves


Some tools that I use

Transplanting seedlings

I use the hook end of one of these. :smile:


They are called a Machinists scribe and are nice and light and easy to hang onto. The shaft diameter is only about 3mm.

To lift out individual seedlings I will use the straight end to loosen and then lift it out with the bent end. If I am doing a whole tray I use the bent end and work from one end to the other by loosening and lifting.

I would think any hardware ( $2 - $3 ) should carry them in the tool section or you could make your own out of some heavy gauge wire.


I also have these which would be the best 3 dollars that I have spent ( the kit even came with some labels) and they have cool names :lol:

The dibber is great for transplanting but it gets the most use for pere cuttings and the widger is just a handy little thing that gets used for all sorts.



Cheers
Got

Edited by GoOnThen (01/21/14 07:13 AM)

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: GoOnThen]
    #19396840 -

Thanks GoOnThen, you really are something special to this community.  I :heart: YOU.


--------------------
"My worm farm"      "96 Gallon Worm Tote"        "Let Your Freak Flag Fly"    "Respect Your Roots"    "A KNEW IDEA"
           
"Nothing New"    "Willkommen im EthnoGarten"      "Don't Be a Backeberg"      "Mites and Mealy Bugs"      "The Heart and the Sun"

If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else.  Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you.  YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE.  Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS.  Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices

“Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: hookahhead]
    #19397076 -

If I understand correctly, your current setup uses ~150W/m2 (13.5W/sq.ft.) about 200-300mm above the plants, right? And you still get compact growth, this is very encouraging for me. :smile:

(unless you are using VHO tubes, that is...)


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: LSoares]
    #19397626 -

That is is an Awesome set up,and some prime specimens:awethumb:Not too much longer,and I'll be grafting away in the subtropical sun!

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: LSoares]
    #19397670 -

lophship 5, sometimes called LSX/ A 101.



this one of a 2 shelf system lophship.

4x 26 W LED 5400K spots.
1 x " 5W x10" 7500K+ 450 nm blue center LLE.
twin red 680 NM and blue 450 nm "  VHO light chips @ 2 W each.

max power of that shelf is about 160W.
shelf 2 about 100W, total box  about 300W.
runs full tilt at 86-88 degrees
( try anything else @ 300W in  box and see what happens )

this system is still water DWC hydro about 101010.

lights 14 on 8 off.

air is twin 5 inch 120v fans....

total power consumption per YEAR , about 40$
ultra low heat/ low IR.

it can also be adjusted for color , but not as much as the other lophships, as we have narrowed the color ranges we like to work with.

we absolutely love this system.
it grows pereskiopis faster and denser leaf set , than outdoor comparison.



--------------------
:aliendance:

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: anne halonium]
    #19397673 -

There she is:killerrabbit:

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: KBG1977]
    #19397682 -

not really gonna comment beyond that though on this thread,
i wanna see what everyone else has got.....



--------------------
:aliendance:

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: anne halonium]
    #19397691 -

anne halonium said:
4x 26 W LED 5400K spots.
1 x " 5W x10" 7500K+ 450 nm blue center LLE.
twin red 680 NM and blue 450 nm "  VHO light chips @ 2 W each.

max power of that shelf is about 160W.
shelf 2 about 100W, total box  about 300W.
runs full tilt at 86-88 degrees


Hi anne, how much area is this lighting?


--------------------
●  EG Rules and Guidelines ● 


|| Lophophora Growers Unite! || Trichocereus Growers Unite! || Stone Eaters - A Soil Revolution ||

You must gather your party before venturing forth.

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: anne halonium]
    #19397693 -

anne halonium said:
lights 14 on 8 off.



Is this a typo or you run sub-24 hour cycles? Only last day I was wondering if there is any work done on this.


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: LSoares]
    #19397703 -

I've fallen into the habit of 15/9 and my lophs on peres last year loved it (138 days from seed to flower)


--------------------
●  EG Rules and Guidelines ● 


|| Lophophora Growers Unite! || Trichocereus Growers Unite! || Stone Eaters - A Soil Revolution ||

You must gather your party before venturing forth.

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #19397720 -

whole box does about 6 sq feet.
keep in mind, thats about 300+ head of cattle , more if i crowd em.

its actually set up now for different type of graft project than normally seen ( and yet to be published)........
the round of clones shown , is the  pre tester for the main project.

the light cycle is what it is, and i do vary it depending.
we run stuff full tilt yr round, and that cycle seems to work well for us.....


--------------------
:aliendance:

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: LSoares]
    #19402899 -

LSoares said:
If I understand correctly, your current setup uses ~150W/m2 (13.5W/sq.ft.) about 200-300mm above the plants, right? And you still get compact growth, this is very encouraging for me. :smile:

(unless you are using VHO tubes, that is...)


I would think your calculation is just about right :smile:
2 x 37 watt tubes covering 1200mm x 400mm and I have one shelf that is running 3 x 37 watt tubes covering the same area.
The tubes that I have been using are cool white for Pere propagation and seed germination. I then have a few different combos that I have tried with daylight, coolwhite and a Nec tube BR-HG which is a plant / fish tube. The BR-HG tube throws a puple/blue light and seems to work well with a daylight. In the 3 tube shelf I am running 2 of the BR-HG and one daylight which has my current grafts and Loph seedlings under them atm.
I kept a number of grafted and on own roots plants under fluros on the shelves that I am using now and the previous setup and I don't recall haveing any real issues with elongation other that Trichs and similar. Gymo's and lophs seamed to love life on the shelves

My shelves are set a couple of different heights the ones that I use for Pere propagation are approximately 400 mm from the tubes where the others are around 300 to 350 from the tubes.
As I now cut my pere at 150mm from the top of the pot and the pots are 75mm tall plus the tray height they sit at around 235mm from the top of the shelf to the top of the stock. Then what you are grafting depends on what extra height you need. I could more than likely run my grafts further away from the lights but I set the shelf heights to be good for grafts as well as seedlings.

My lights are on a 16/8 schedule from 6 am to 10 pm

I have 13 x 37 watt tubes in that small room so that is a total of 481 watts covering 2.9 square meters.

Today was 43deg C and with my lights running and a small oscillating fan that runs for 15 minutes every hour my grow room reached a max of 42deg C and my greenhouse reached the same. :smile:

Cheers
Got


--------------------

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: GoOnThen]
    #19402914 -

GoOnThen said:
My lights are on a 16/8 schedule from 6 am to 10 pm



Just wanted to point out, that if your grow is kept in the DARK
That 6pm to 10 am might be a better schedule
Because that's when "things" get the COLDEST
And APPRECIATE the WARMTH

You all know what comes next...
[                  ]

So It was INTENTIONALLY left BLANK
To fill in your own GAPS


--------------------
"My worm farm"      "96 Gallon Worm Tote"        "Let Your Freak Flag Fly"    "Respect Your Roots"    "A KNEW IDEA"
           
"Nothing New"    "Willkommen im EthnoGarten"      "Don't Be a Backeberg"      "Mites and Mealy Bugs"      "The Heart and the Sun"

If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else.  Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you.  YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE.  Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS.  Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices

“Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard

Edited by hookahhead (01/11/14 09:34 AM)

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: hookahhead]
    #19403097 -

I did used to run them at night but I found during winter as it was warmer during the day the heat from the lights brought the temps up to around 25 deg C and then in summer if they were on at night the room never got a chance to cool down. :smile:

I have added a photos to the first post and added grafting stuff in the second post.

Cheers
Got


--------------------

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: GoOnThen]
    #19403122 -

I NEVER thought of that and it's so SIMPLE!  Thank GoT :bow2:


--------------------
"My worm farm"      "96 Gallon Worm Tote"        "Let Your Freak Flag Fly"    "Respect Your Roots"    "A KNEW IDEA"
           
"Nothing New"    "Willkommen im EthnoGarten"      "Don't Be a Backeberg"      "Mites and Mealy Bugs"      "The Heart and the Sun"

If someone doesn't want your LIGHT, shine it some where else.  Everyday there are people who LOVE, ACCEPT, and LOOK FORWARD to making CONTACT with you.  YOU are capable of GREAT THINGS even if you feel neglected or mistreated in OUR current SPACE.  Change your ways, change our WORLD, there is SAFTEY in NUMBERS.  Welcome to the PRESENT. ~ 144,000 Anonymous Voices

“Call it a clan, call it a network, call it a tribe, call it a family: Whatever you call it, whoever you are, you need one. [NOW]” - Jane Howard

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: hookahhead]
    #19404457 -

Man, I'm speechless. I can't even start to thank you enough for all the trouble you've gone through to show us how you do your stuff. I really appreciate it. :bow:


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: GoOnThen]
    #19404551 -

Aww yeah.  I like the tray rack and cutting jig.  I'm tempted to dust off my 4 footers and set up a larger space now.  I like what I have but I just need more space.

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Re: The Propagation, Grafting Setups and Tips [Re: hookahhead]
    #19404692 -

hookahhead said:
GoOnThen said:
My lights are on a 16/8 schedule from 6 am to 10 pm



Just wanted to point out, that if your grow is kept in the DARK
That 6pm to 10 am might be a better schedule
Because that's when "things" get the COLDEST
And APPRECIATE the WARMTH



One other advantage of running them at night is that if you have a "smart" meter the power can be significantly cheaper in off-peak hours.

Looks like an awesome thread so far. Will post later on my setup/experiences on the topic. My stock plants are in a state of disrepair right now though so any new pics I take will look like crap somewhat. I have a lot less indoor grow space than I do outdoors so it's a struggle now to keep everything lit over the winter.

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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