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InvisibleSwami
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Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be...
    #1676685 - 07/01/03 12:55 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Is there power in phrases and words, especially foreign words? Or are these merely used like an insider handshake? A nudge & a wink that sez: "I am hip to the metaphysical - are you?"


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblebandaid
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Swami]
    #1676728 - 07/01/03 01:13 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Im assuming your refering to my post and the UFO posts and such. Too bad you wont take me or anyone else seriously, I cant hand proof to you or anything, and I never plan to. I post here to get seriouse possible answers, mostly from people who have had the same experiences, otherwize if its from anyone else (like you) their more than likely to be overly skeptic, I cant blame them or you that much, but if it hasnt happened to YOU directly dont dismiss any of those possabilities too quickly.

And from what I read they are NOT metaphysical explanations (highly abstract reasoning) if thats what your refering to, my explanation wasnt abstract, I used logical reasoning and my reasoning behind "spirit" or "living consciousensess" doesnt come from my personal fantasies or from a dumb belief system but from personel observation from psychic mediums and my own personel experiences, granted Im sure many psychic mediums are frauds and most of them whether real or not can be HIGHLY vague when they conveing whatever they hear/see/feel, but like I said Im NOT an optamistic person, you on the other hand I classify as a pasamistic skeptic no offense.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: bandaid]
    #1676828 - 07/01/03 01:58 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

No reference to you or your post at all, but to New Age books, seminars, websites; etc.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblebandaid
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Swami]
    #1676841 - 07/01/03 02:02 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

edit: I jumped to conclusions sorry heh  :blush:


Edited by bandaid (07/01/03 03:48 PM)


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: bandaid]
    #1676974 - 07/01/03 02:50 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

You shouldn't push someone's discussion off-topic based on an assumption.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Swami]
    #1677037 - 07/01/03 03:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

There is power in words, of course, but it comes only from the meaning and information contained in those words. And as everyone knows, the meaning and information is always determined by the recipient.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1677348 - 07/01/03 06:00 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The best explaination that I've heard for this sort of thing is that different tones vibrate various parts/bones/brain parts/etc and 'activate' them or something. like a deep deep massage.

on a less practical level, makes noises with your body is fun, especially if they're nonsense noises that are playful. there is something very trippy about feeling sound emanating from you. yoga and tripping meditation (the only time I really meditate) are good times to play with the primordial play-things in our necks.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Malachi]
    #1677472 - 07/01/03 07:01 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I agree basically with Malachi on this. For example, intoning "OM" physcially vibrates/resonates in roughly your heart area . Don't scoff - try it and tell me I'm wrong. Contrast it to "ahhhh" or "iiihhhh" (the latter by no stretch of the imagination is anywhere but the head).

Frequencies have very powerful affects on our consciousness; sit in a light&sound based "mind-machine" for half an hour if you have any doubts about this. The brain for one attunes to frequencies; playing a 3hz tone puts you into borderline delta/theta, a state of almost sleep that is associated with dream fragments, hallucinations, etc, that usually we only experience for moments as we fall asleep. If you maintain this frequency for hours, you'll feel like you have tripped after the session is over.

Thus couldn't chanting a mantra be powerful simply because it is a repetition of certain frequencies, the cyclical series of which could produce different effects?

If you work with energy, you could go further and say that frequencies actually resonate various energy frequencies in your body system; this is of course only subjectively verfiable. (Question, if you find this outrageously flakey: have you experienced the chakra system in the body? Do you have an alternate explanation for what is going on with them? And you do know that each chakra is associated with a specific tone frequency, such that if you play the tone you can feel your awareness being centered around the chakra? E.g., I first discovered the phenomena while listening to music stoned; I wondered what the localized sensations on my body were, and found the chakra system to be the best explanation. Recommended music if you wish to repeat the experiment: Hallucinogen "Twisted", Shpongle (either album).)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Swami]
    #1681019 - 07/02/03 07:09 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Mantras (an Indian yogic word), Divine Names (to be found in Judao-Christian religion and magick), Barbarous Names (to be found in low magick, or sorcery) have all been practiced for millennia. Whether they work in their intended ways can only be experienced subjectively by their practitioners).

Mere vocalizing of these words, without initiation or preparation, is at best useless and at worst blasphemous to believers (remember, the attempted vocalization of the sacred 4-letter Name of the Lord, brought the death penalty at one time, which 'The Life of Brian' parodied nicely).

Ram Dass related the experience of a mantra which caused 'flight' of some kind, which he wasn't told about prior to its repetition. Afterwards, he was asked, 'how do you like flying?'

On a purely psychological note, I have observed how sounding certain prescribed syllables reveals weaknesses or repressions in the multi-tiered chakra psychology of individuals. For example, I once tried to get tripping friends to sound the seed-syllable 'AH' which opens the throat center. The psychology of this center (there are multiple levels of operation) concerned with communication, with 'seeking,' with higher emotional states (as experienced when great pathos causes one to become 'all choked up,' and tears wept) revealed a tremendous inability to 'resonate' on this level in a childhood friend. He lives in his intellect, in his head, has dreams of his head floating off his body, and is to this day quite alienated from his emotional life.

Sounding the Omkar (OM), which in Hindu Yoga begins at the base of the spine, moves upward to the head centers, wherein one completes the O-O-O-O sound with M-M-M-M-M, is a different inner experience than pronouncing OM as AUM, with 'A' beginning in the Heart center, 'U' in the Throat Center, and 'M' in the Head Center. The psychology behind each practices is different, as is the yogic philosophy. The Tibetan 'Mystery of Body, Speech and Mind,' which characterizes the post-enlightenment experience, is symbolized by the syllables 'OM-AH-HUM,' and denotes transpersonal energy flowing down from the Body [of Truth - Dharma], through the mantric Speech Throat center, to indwell the center of human mind in the Heart. The intention, philosophy, vocalization of these same syllablles in different orders, serve to impress certain important psychospiritual landmark experiences on the psyche.

Whereas the use of Barbarous names, in Latin, for Ceremonial Magick never amounted to much for me, the symbolism of seed-syllables (not their actual vocalizations) in Tibetan Buddhism, to distill and encapsulate otherwise indescribable high psychedelic states, have been MOST important in guiding and mapping my inner development, and in the way I can describe these things to others.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1681174 - 07/02/03 08:17 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

very interesting Markos, thanks

I did the OM as I read your post and for the first time realized the vibrations started down low and moved up. it feels alot cooler now :smile:


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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Grav]
    #1681444 - 07/02/03 10:27 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

>>Is there power in phrases and words, especially foreign words?

Only if the individual empowers those words in his/her reality as to having any type of meaning or significance.  If you believe something, it's your mind/ego giving that "something" a foundation an independent reality that doesn't really exist. 

I could say the word phlem is a holy word that will directly connect me to God's divine consciousness and that in order to have the right to chant the word phlem one must first bathe in buttermilk and be bonked over the head with a swizzle stick.  If an individual accepts this ability and conditions as something meaningful and valid, their own mind will not allow them the full "power" of chanting phlem til they get mighty dirty first.  :smile:  All over concepts of something that isn't even real.  But, if their mind can conceive it and empower it, how can it not be real?

Love & Light,

Boppity


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Boppity604]
    #1681743 - 07/03/03 12:20 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Perhaps you should look up the 'Mozart Effect.' Or, again, consider how complex sounds, called music, can intensely effect emotional changes. Then consider the possibility that sounds, broken down to simple pure tones, can have profound effects on the psyche and personality. In fact, the words person and persona, derive from the Greek, which means 'through sound' - per sona [as in sonic]. The use of mantra has an entire body of knowledge connected to it that is very old both in Hinduism and Tibetan Buddhism. It is likely that Egyptian adepts also used sounds, and Gnostic groups have left written records of their use of sounds to alter consciousness.

When I left teacher-training in Transcendental Meditation over 25 years ago, it was because they lied to new teachers as well as to the public, that the mantras were 'meaningless sounds' which increased 'Creative Intelligence.' I discovered (Sir John Woodruff's 'Garland of Letters') that the mantras were considered to be attractors of spiritual entities that one would inadvertantly 'channel' into one's Hridayam - Sacred Heart. No thanks. Even then I was very particular as to Who I wanted to indwell my Center. (I was never a spiritual slut). BTW, 'phlegm' wasn't one of them. As a practicing hypnotist since 1989, I can tell you that there is a complete difference between artificially attributing a meaning to something, and discovering that something (like a sound) has an intrinsic meaning of its own.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1681922 - 07/03/03 01:21 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah? I bet you couldn't hypnotize me.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Malachi]
    #1684891 - 07/03/03 10:18 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I can hypnotize anyone who wants to experience hypnosis, and no one who does not. Simple. It's not about power - it's about being guided.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineSev
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1687581 - 07/05/03 08:48 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

You could hypnotize -- or at least use hypnotic methods -- on someone who was unaware of it and neither for or against being hypnotized, though.


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"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Sev]
    #1687689 - 07/05/03 10:49 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Right. I could stand next to you and begin to yawn repeatedly. Almost certainly, you would yawn too. Or, we could walk outside on a summer day, and I could say, "Jeez it's hot today," at which time you might begin to feel uncomfortably hot, when a moment earlier you were completely enjoying the warm summer day. But it's more likely that you play with the TV remote w/o actually watching a full-length show - just changing channels, which from 30 feet away shows the obviousness of the light show that is effecting your brain-wave states, placing you in a hypnoidal condition. Or perhaps, while preoccupied with thought, you arrive home in your car w/o remembering any of the usual landmarks that you pass. Or, you get 'white line fever' on the road, and drive pass your exit. More hypnoidal states.

Don't worry about me Bub - my job is to awaken people from the societal trance they're already in - pull them out of The Matrix, so-to-speak, maybe recover repressed memories that continue to exert pathological symptoms on someone's life tears later. Most people are SO hypnotised, that there is no danger that little ole me is gonna do any harm to anyone. I despise manipulation. I will distract, like a stage magician, to permit a client to 'bypass the critcal factor,' allowing him/her to enter the subconscious...but they pay me to do that, and when they get down there, I can be trusted to guide them, like the Hermetic psychopomp that I aspire to be - guiding them through the Underworld.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleBoppity604
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1687754 - 07/05/03 11:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

>>Don't worry about me Bub - my job is to awaken people from the societal trance they're already in

That's like getting a running start before you hit the wall. No matter how much you show or teach anyone anything, it's up to the individual to save him/herself. You can only show someone a door exists. Whether they choose to open it and walk through is something only they can take credit for. The Buddha himself said throughout the sutras that he cannot enlighten anyone. Liberation is within us...we enlighten ourselves. Dharma can only guide you to the door of liberation...the rest is up to each of us.

Love & Light,

Boppity


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: Boppity604]
    #1688228 - 07/05/03 05:05 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

You seem to have confused metaphysics with hypnotherapy, which is a method of psychotherapy. Perhaps my reference to the Matrix was confusing. A hypnotist guides a person into their subconscious. Then, instead of leaving them in this deeply relaxed state, one applies information that the client has provided you with, or one begins by eliciting whatever memories are available at different ages of the client. It is up to the skill of the therapist to discern if a problem developed, say, between the age of 9 and 10, by having the client evoke memories and questioning them when they are aware of scenes of various ages. It is true, that the client him/herself must do the remembering, and most importantly, the act of forgiving him/herself, or someone who has victimized or hurt them, in order to release the pain, or trauma that they have been subconsciously clinging to.

Hypnosis is a kind of trip, where mind-set (expectation) and setting (the consulting room) contribute to the outcome. It is type of secular confessional - a ritual, during which a client seeks out a trusted 'guide,' undergoes (to them) an esoteric proceedure, remembers long forgotten and emotionally powerful events that have been repressed, and is given directions for releasing the negative emotion from the event memory. The client does the real work. Moreover, ALL hypnosis is self-hypnosis, and once an individual is shown how to isolate the subconscious, [s]he can access it again with a post-hypnotic trigger, or by listening to a tape of the hypnotic induction. It is a sort of initiation, but into a familiar state of mind which we all enter spontaneously many times of day and night. There are deepening techniques however, that a hypnotist is needed for such as the Esdaile State, otherwise known as 'hypnotic coma,' during which limb amputations have been done w/o anaesthesia, and during which the subconscious can be asked to slow or stop the amount of bleeding. Look up James Esdaile or James Braid if you're interested.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1688336 - 07/05/03 06:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Markos - is it possible to teach yourself self-hypnosis, say, from a book? Or must one always be "initiated", as you put it? How does NLP differ from "mainstream" hypnosis, if there is a mainstream?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Om, Hoo, Blessed Be, Shanti, So it is; so it shall be... [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1689902 - 07/06/03 12:59 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Self-hypnosis can be learned from Leslie M. LeCron's 'Self-Hypnotism: The Technique and Its Use in Daily Living,' which was published in 1964, but can still be found - I found one. The central technique that I learned (probably from my teacher reading this book) is the 'Chevreul Pendulum.' It is the only time one really uses a pendulum in hypnosis - never in front of someone else's eyes like in the movies.

I have received traing in NLP (since I like to learn from different schools, classical, existential, etc.) from a well-published NLP practitioner . At one workshop, I was the only person to look at my watch, when that practitioner asked the audience for how much time had elapsed. After 25 minutes, his volunteer was scarcely hypnoidal, but definately not in 'somnambulism' - the 'working state.'

The traditional technique from my first teacher (Gerald Kein, Omni Hypnosis Center, DeLand, FL) utilized the work of Dave Elman (died 1959) who was not a clinician, but WAS a Master Hypnotist. I can usually get someone into trance the first time in about 10 minutes. There are 'rapid inductions,' and I've used an 'instantaneous induction' after the client had previously experienced trance. Words must be chosen very carefully, because if the client's subconscious doesn't like even hints of an authoritarian approach - it won't work. Some people require an authoritarian rather than a permissive approach. One must not use negation words, for example, because the subconscious doesn't hear them. Thus, if you say, "You will not feel pain," the subconscious hears "You will feel pain," and the person responds accordingly. One must suggest positive experience. Lots of little details are difficult to learn from a book. It's not about secret knowledge or initiation in any hocus-pocus sense.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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