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Invisiblespud
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Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
God Bless America
    #4450893 - 07/25/05 02:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

On my drive to school today while in a some what congested section of the road I encountered a car with a bumper sticker that read "God Bless America." Perhaps it was the lack of sleep, or perhaps the boredom induced from the lack of movement in response of the traffic, but this sticker seemed incredibly absurd to me.

If you break it down, this string of words which we are told makes sense, in reality, makes absolutely no sense. It is an abstraction (God) "blessing" another abstraction (America). Was it representative to only North America? I highly doubt the bumper sticker referred to all of America, that is to say the lands of the western hemisphere including North, Central, and South America, along with the West Indies. North America is distinguished by completely arbitrary legal borders that can change over night.

Does this mean God blesses America, but when America begins to merge with, let's say, Canada, he no longer blesses it?

Also, which God (or god, with little g) does this refer to? The Buddhist vision of a god? Or perhaps Islam's perspective? Call me crazy, but I have a hunch it may be only referring to the Judea-Christian model of a God.

And what exactly is it meant by bless? Could this bumper sticker possibly suggest that God consecrates North America over the rest of the world, making it dedicated to a sacred purpose somehow elevated in perspective to "the other"?

I could go on, but out of concern of my unnecessary consumption of your time, I'll stop.

And that's my rant for today.

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InvisibleFecalDildo
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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4452122 - 07/25/05 06:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah man, i totally agree with you..

Im not American but i totally feel what you are saying..

"God Bless America" is basically a sloagan, a marketing tool for patriotism.

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InvisibleFecalDildo
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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4452133 - 07/25/05 07:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah man, i totally agree with you..

Im not American but i totally feel what you are saying..

"God Bless America" is basically a sloagan, a marketing tool for patriotism. Its a bit like "Enjoy, Coca Cola"

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4453257 - 07/25/05 11:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Why do you even give a fuck? One of the things the United States guarantees is freedom of speech. Why do you care if someone has a stupid bumpersticker. A week ago I saw an $25,000 or so Hummer being driven by some dude dressed like he was loaded with a bumpersticker that said "Capitalism: Its looks good on paper, but it doesn't work." I don't give a shit if this idiot wants to down the system that let him own that Hummer. He is a free individual. Why begrudge someone their freedom to express their love for their country in the mode of their choice....it's no skin off your back.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4453279 - 07/25/05 11:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Why do you even give a fuck? One of the things the United States guarantees is freedom of speech. Why do you care if someone has a stupid bumpersticker. A week ago I saw an $25,000 or so Hummer being driven by some dude dressed like he was loaded with a bumpersticker that said "Capitalism: Its looks good on paper, but it doesn't work." I don't give a shit if this idiot wants to down the system that let him own that Hummer. He is a free individual. Why begrudge someone their freedom to express their love for their country in the mode of their choice....it's no skin off your back.



It didn't sound to me like spud had an axe to grind here, and certainly wasn't begrudging the guy's right to have that bumpersticker. He was just doing what I often do: questioning the reality with which he is presented. It's what separates the intellectuals from the complacent.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4453413 - 07/25/05 11:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It sounded like resentment to me. Maybe I am over sensitive. I am a patriotic American having served in my country's Armed services. I do not agree with my country's politics always, but I am fond of it. I do think the notion of God blessing anything is ridiculous, but there are many Christian types who do not. It also must be said that he is ridiculing a theology for not being tolerant of others when he is showing intolerance himself.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineMJF
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4453505 - 07/26/05 12:04 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

are you not doing the same with his point of view?

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4453544 - 07/26/05 12:13 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

To me it seemed like he was simply ridiculing the idea that a divine being would bless a specific area within man-made geopolitical boundaries. That's not intolerant of him. It's insightful.


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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
Posts: 44,410
Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4453774 - 07/26/05 01:05 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Why begrudge someone their freedom to express their love for their country in the mode of their choice....it's no skin off your back.




Can you please point out where I "begrudged" the individual. Or actually, how about you point out any comment I made about the individual at all.

You're doing exactly what you are criticizing.

Kudos.

I have absolutely no resentment, you seem to be full of it. No reason to curse. No reason to accuse.

I question what I see, if this angers you then I'm sorry.

As for ridiculing a theology, can you show me where I do this?

I am a theist myself, so I find this accusation extremely interesting.


Edited by spud (07/26/05 01:10 AM)

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Invisiblespud
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4453777 - 07/26/05 01:06 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
To me it seemed like he was simply ridiculing the idea that a divine being would bless a specific area within man-made geopolitical boundaries. That's not intolerant of him. It's insightful.




Thank you Paradigm. I made a mistake in assuming that anyone with the attribute of literacy would see it the same way.

That was exactly my point.

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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4453907 - 07/26/05 01:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

i dont know if anyone felt resentful, you may be right, i do not know his feelings
i just want to say, mabye it's okay to feel resentful, if that's how a person feels :heart:


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4454383 - 07/26/05 05:11 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Oh no...it does not anger me. I was just commenting on your "observation" because it seemed petty and somewhat pointless. You are entitled to your views completely, just as I am entitled to comment on them. Come on....you don't post things publicly and expect total agreement do you? It must be noted that by "ridiculing the idea that a divine being would bless a specific area within man-made geopolitical boundaries" you are ridiculing the core beliefs of thousands of people world wide of varying religions. There are many Christians and Muslims who have exactly that viewpoint....if not why would "God Bless America" have ever been written. I think the song was meant to be taken quite literally. So I think that I am not incorrect in my assumptions.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4454386 - 07/26/05 05:14 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

as american as
apple pie and
bumperstickers

or free speech and
bumberstickers


(this is why I like to make short posts - keeps the traffic moving)


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4454852 - 07/26/05 09:25 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I would prefer "YHWH bless USA"

:grin:

edit: dammned godnames...god has no names ! :tongue2:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (07/26/05 09:34 AM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4454885 - 07/26/05 09:33 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It is slightly more traditional...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4454896 - 07/26/05 09:36 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hue, but then you will see which g*d is meant and what folk wants him to bless their country :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4454911 - 07/26/05 09:43 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Right off...it sounds Jewish....old Jewish.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4454926 - 07/26/05 09:48 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

oy gevalt!
would be a jewish bumpersticker


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: God Bless America [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4454962 - 07/26/05 10:05 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I knew a kid in college with one of those jesus-fish type bumper magnets that said "GEFILTE" in it  :grin:



I used to have this one:



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Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...

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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4454974 - 07/26/05 10:09 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Although I did find it interesting (on a more serious note) shortly after 9/11 when all the "patriotic" billboards went up, they all said "God Bless America", and none of them said "United We Stand."  I think the latter would have been a much better platform at the time... :shrug:


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4455080 - 07/26/05 10:44 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

[Oops. To Hue:]
Right, and by definition, it is only the g*d of jews. (Ask someone who reads the talmud about this, if he dares to share)
I mean, that's the same intention. Why should g*d 'bless' america only, where most of americans are christians (not jews) when christ tells 'love your enemy' ?
That's some exclusivilty the 'new' (and [I think] also the pre-talmudian) g*d does not know... He wants, that all people will live together in peace...
I would understand a sticker like 'God bless you' or something like that...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455097 - 07/26/05 10:52 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
It must be noted that by "ridiculing the idea that a divine being would bless a specific area within man-made geopolitical boundaries" you are ridiculing the core beliefs of thousands of people world wide of varying religions. There are many Christians and Muslims who have exactly that viewpoint....if not why would "God Bless America" have ever been written.




Personally, I'm pretty sure that number is definitely at least in the millions, but I feel that it doesn't matter how many people hold a core belief - if the belief is baseless and ignorant, than it deserved to be called as such. However, I wouldn't personally "ridicule" someone for having such a belief, as a direct result of the understanding of the nature of perspective and how it is formed by experience. Essentially, it isn't their fault. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455107 - 07/26/05 10:56 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I do think the notion of God blessing anything is ridiculous...




Ridiculous - deserving of ridicule. :shocked:

:wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: God Bless America [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4455121 - 07/26/05 11:00 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Oh, and the worst bumpersticker that I ever remember seeing that is in this same kind of vein was God Is Pro Life.. :smirk:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:












:lol:

:wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: God Bless America [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4455170 - 07/26/05 11:14 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

short and incendary
but not suicidal.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455224 - 07/26/05 11:28 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

If you are not incorrect in your assumptions, please point out where I begrudged someone, as you indeed claimed.

Also, you claim that millions believe America is the blessed land?

Can you support this?

Last time I checked, the "blessed land" was a bit to the east  :smirk:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4455227 - 07/26/05 11:29 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

WHere do you get a Cthulhu fish...I need one?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4455237 - 07/26/05 11:30 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Ridiculous - deserving of ridicule."

Maybe I used the wrong term then...howabout "incorrect" instead. I do not wish to ridicule anothers religion even if I do question it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455257 - 07/26/05 11:34 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I do not wish to ridicule anothers religion even if I do question it.




:thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4455276 - 07/26/05 11:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I do not have to support my opinion...it is OPINION. Opinion does not require support. Only statements of fact require support. You are welcome to ignore it. I based my opinion on your snide and intolerant tone and content. If you dislike it, take solace in the fact that it is only opinion.

"Also, you claim that millions believe America is the blessed land?"

I never said that. Read it again.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisiblespud
I'm so fly.

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Posts: 44,410
Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455289 - 07/26/05 11:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I do not have to support my opinion...it is OPINION. Opinion does not require support. Only statements of fact require support.



:lol:

So they whole field of theoretical science doesn't require support?

That statement you just made is wrong on so many levels.

You make a great Christian though, I'll give you that.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4455313 - 07/26/05 11:49 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

My opinions are NOT science so they require no factual support...they only require that I intuited a bad attitude on your part towards the bumpersticker bearers. Do you really think I am a Christian? You haven't read many of my posts yet. Before you talk about how wrong I am stop saying that I said things that I clearly did not say. How can I be right or wrong when you don't know what I said.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455314 - 07/26/05 11:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I also don't want to ridicule anyones beliefes :thumbup:

But something came into my mind... isn't "God Bless America" said by an American not like "God Bless Me" ?
Hehehe, that's the most cruel sticker of them all :laugh:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4455322 - 07/26/05 11:53 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

My God already did bless me. That is why I am always right.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisiblespud
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455343 - 07/26/05 12:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You crack me up.

I'll leave you with this: Making opinions based on no support is the definition of ignorance.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455351 - 07/26/05 12:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I do not have to support my opinion...it is OPINION. Opinion does not require support. Only statements of fact require support. You are welcome to ignore it. I based my opinion on your snide and intolerant tone and content. If you dislike it, take solace in the fact that it is only opinion.




Absolutely absurd. If you wish to be taken seriously whatsoever, you will realize that opinions should be backed up if not by fact, than at least by reason.

Not doing so lumps you into the same category as tin-foil hat-wearing conspiracists and alien abductees.

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Invisiblespud
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Redstorm]
    #4455353 - 07/26/05 12:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I do not have to support my opinion...it is OPINION. Opinion does not require support. Only statements of fact require support. You are welcome to ignore it. I based my opinion on your snide and intolerant tone and content. If you dislike it, take solace in the fact that it is only opinion.




Absolutely absurd. If you wish to be taken seriously whatsoever, you will realize that opinions should be backed up if not by fact, than at least by reason.

Not doing so lumps you into the same category as tin-foil hat-wearing conspiracists and alien abductees.



:thumbup:

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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4455360 - 07/26/05 12:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Absolutely absurd. If you wish to be taken seriously whatsoever, you will realize that opinions should be backed up if not by fact, than at least by reason.

Not doing so lumps you into the same category as tin-foil hat-wearing conspiracists and religious fanatics on both ends of the spectrum.




--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Redstorm]
    #4455361 - 07/26/05 12:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I did give reason, but it was ignored. I said tone and content.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisiblespud
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455371 - 07/26/05 12:09 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You should really consider converting to Christianity.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455381 - 07/26/05 12:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Making opinions based on no support is the definition of ignorance."

You are totally discounting my original post. I did say why I felt that way...and you did not agree. At that point my opinion and the reason was stated so no factual support was relevant because because communications are open to interpretation and the scorn in your original post was clear.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4455391 - 07/26/05 12:16 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"You should really consider converting to Christianity."

More intolerance...shame on you....


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455395 - 07/26/05 12:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

More?

Where was the first instance of it?

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Redstorm]
    #4455409 - 07/26/05 12:20 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I do not need to requote myself. Read the other posts I have made in this thread.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455415 - 07/26/05 12:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

If you're talking about his initial post, there is no intolerance there. He is merely pointing out the absurdity of something obviously absurd.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Redstorm]
    #4455431 - 07/26/05 12:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Patriotic Americans amuse me no end. Its so obvious that the whole ridiculous patriotic attitude is based on nothing more than parental/government prescribed child-hood brainwashing. Of course, this is only my "opinion", so I'm completely exempt from ever having to back it up. :lol:

My favorite thing to do with Americans is to name every state in America and then ask them where Wales is. They usually don't know, or they answer with something like "Is that somewhere in England?". This is of course, always very funny, and highly embarrassing for the American. :grin:


--------------------

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Sinbad]
    #4455455 - 07/26/05 12:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I have no problem with patriotic Americans; hell, I am one. What I do believe is silly is when I hear people talk about the Christian God like he is exclusive to Americans.

Also, what is silly is when people believe they can debate using an unfounded opinion.

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455476 - 07/26/05 12:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
My God already did bless me. That is why I am always right.



:rofl2:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Sinbad]
    #4455556 - 07/26/05 12:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Patriotic Americans amuse me no end. Its so obvious that the whole ridiculous patriotic attitude is based on nothing more than parental/government prescribed child-hood brainwashing.

You opinion is your opinion, but I see patriotism as a pragmatic thing. For one, being a patriot does not mean to always agree that your government is right. A true patriot points out governmental corruption and the elimination of our freedoms as errors in the system so that they may be corrected. My vision of patriotism extends to loving my country for it's land, and people and many of it's ideals. Ideals with which I do not agree I seek to change. My patriotism extends to the good of the land and the people, and if the government does not support the land and the people it must be forced to change. I am not discussing the childlike obediance to authority figures many people express, but having the courage to support your country while admitting it's imperfections so that change may occurr. I hope that you feal the same responsibility for your country. We should always contribute to our tribe's survival.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455575 - 07/26/05 01:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
You opinion is your opinion, but I see patriotism as a pragmatic thing. For one, being a patriot does not mean to always agree that your government is right. A true patriot points out governmental corruption and the elimination of our freedoms as errors in the system so that they may be corrected.




I wish somebody would say that on Fox News and CNN. It's an unfortunate case of labeling, but those who follow the gov't blindly are NOT patriots, they're flag-wavers and there's a HUGE difference.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4455633 - 07/26/05 01:15 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
My vision of patriotism extends to loving my country for it's land, and people and many of it's ideals.




What about the rest of the world? I try my damnedest to have love for everyone, not just the people who fall within certian ink excretions.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4455784 - 07/26/05 01:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Most people's idea of 'love' is a foggy, romtanicised, blinding, conceptually distorted form of attachment.

Hue, why not try loving all of Gods creations 'unconditionally', that way you wont get conditioned by man-made notions of separation and boundaries. Boundless compassion sees no distinction between Iraqi human beings, and American ones.

America makes such a big deal of September 11th, but people quickly forget about the thousands of innocent lives taken by Americans, in a country that they obviously deem to not be blessed by there version of 'God'.

I dont think Americans or the British for that matter, have much at all these days to be patriotic about, when our countries leaders and politicans preach about the "evils" of terrorism, whilst raining down much worse acts of terrorism upon other countries.


--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (07/26/05 04:07 PM)

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Invisiblespud
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Sinbad]
    #4456248 - 07/26/05 03:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hue gives us Americans a bad name.

I've traveled a lot, including the Middle East.

He's the exact American persona they all make fun with.

I can't stand the attitude that divinity favors arbitrary geographic locations.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4456480 - 07/26/05 04:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

God Bless America
simply is a statement of fear that
God Might Not Bless America
therefore the hope that
God Will Bless America.

One wonders what the bumper sticker placer
really felt guilty about,
and why they felt the need to hide their fear and guilt
behind the huge Abstraction called America.


My guess is that like myself,
they probably masturbate too much,
and think that God will swoop down ,
and chop their head off someday
through the mediation of some Islamic
non-masturbating
truely religious
self righteous
person, and so

God Bless America.

(I didn't mean to fuck my best friend's wife!)


--------------------
...or something






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Re: God Bless America [Re: eve69]
    #4456565 - 07/26/05 05:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

:rofl2:

:handth:

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Re: God Bless America [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4456640 - 07/26/05 05:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"What about the rest of the world? I try my damnedest to have love for everyone, not just the people who fall within certian ink excretions."

I was defining patriotism. Of course I have kinship and empathy for all humans, but just as I put familly above others I put my fellow countymen above others in a similar fashion....because I must live with them.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4456677 - 07/26/05 05:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

is it okay to put whites above others aswell? :smile:

Edited by Arp (07/26/05 05:49 PM)

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Sinbad]
    #4456687 - 07/26/05 05:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Once again I was defining patriotism. Do not make the generalization of thinking that I support the wrongdoings of my country. I do not support the war in Iraq because it is a huge mistake and an abuse of power. I have advised one of my children (who is 17) against serving in the armed forces and supporting such a war. I myself served proudly as a warrior in my country's service for 4 years. I attended Infantry training at Ft. Benning Ga. and I attended Airborne School at the same. If I were younger I would not now serve because I think that more harm than good is beeing done to everyone involved. That does not mean I do not support my country. It also does not mean that I do not have compassion for my fellow humans no matter what their nationality. I must tell you however that I was raised in a very fundamentalist part of the US and I learned about compassion for others and racial equality as a truth while in the Army. I was required by my unit to donate a percentage of my wages to global charities fighting hunger. Once again patriotism means that you love your country...warts and all, and that you try to make a difference.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4456692 - 07/26/05 05:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Hue gives us Americans a bad name.

I've traveled a lot, including the Middle East.

He's the exact American persona they all make fun with.

I can't stand the attitude that divinity favors arbitrary geographic locations."

Awesome!!! :smile: :smile: :smile: Your pissed off. Better than being pissed on  :frown: :frown: :frown:
Peace


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4456699 - 07/26/05 05:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

No that is called racial prejudice. It is bad.....come on man you can do better than that!


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4456703 - 07/26/05 05:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hue, I've got to point this out.  These guys are feeding you lines to get a rise out of you, and every time you take the bait.

You're entitled to your beliefs, and we can all see you hold them strongly and would gladly defend them.  I don't think you're going to change any minds today, at least in this thread.

:shrug:

:2cents:


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4456708 - 07/26/05 05:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I enjoy rising to their bait. Maybe it's the trout fisherman in me...let me guess you guys are into animal rights?? It is worth noting anger is often the catalyst of change. When this place makes me angry I know I have a concept that needs closer examination.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (07/26/05 05:41 PM)

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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4456720 - 07/26/05 05:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Fair enough, as long as you don't dismiss the possibility that your own beliefs may require examination.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4456733 - 07/26/05 05:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I try (and often fail) to examine my beliefs always. Change through adopting new paradigms is what prevents stagnation. One should seek to be dynamic.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4456746 - 07/26/05 05:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So why are there so many patriotic Americans? Cause its a pretty "new" country, or that it being fueld by self-intrest?

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4456780 - 07/26/05 05:58 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Perhaps because the country was founded on principles of patriotism?

Did you know that a (ancient) Greek considered his state to be an integral part of his identity? The loss of citizenship was one of the harshest penalties that could be applied, save death. This was true through massive corruption, obvious wrongdoings, and disagreements with the governing body. Then again, Athens was a "true" democracy, which didn't work out very fairly either.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Drink_Punk_Soda]
    #4456854 - 07/26/05 06:18 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Patrotism is pretty cute but very vicious :laugh:
Like a tiger  :captain:

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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4456858 - 07/26/05 06:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"What about the rest of the world? I try my damnedest to have love for everyone, not just the people who fall within certian ink excretions."

I was defining patriotism. Of course I have kinship and empathy for all humans, but just as I put familly above others I put my fellow countymen above others in a similar fashion....because I must live with them.




You don't have to live with them. A vast majority of them you will never even come into contact with.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4456872 - 07/26/05 06:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Tiny Tim said it all. "God bless us all." :heart: No us, no them. Just life to be lived! :heart: Can we wrap ourselves around that? :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4457171 - 07/26/05 07:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Someday that might be the reality. Right now we are still a deeply tribal species. I base my beliefs on practicality, and that is the pragmatic view.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4457194 - 07/26/05 07:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Self interest of course. That is not always a bad thing if the self interest can be responsible.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4457306 - 07/26/05 08:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Someday that might be the reality. Right now we are still a deeply tribal species. I base my beliefs on practicality, and that is the pragmatic view.




Who is we white man? Speak for yourself. :grin: :heart: :heart: :heart: I am teasing you, but still serious. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4457844 - 07/26/05 10:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Who is we white man?"

We is humanity. Once again, I do not consider views that do not have practical result in my lifetime for adoption. I want help with the here/now...the hereafter is speculation.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4457879 - 07/26/05 10:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Ah, but this view does have practical result. My life is better personally for me, because I consider us all one people. :thumbup: Only people ready for living a different paradigm can hope to  change the current one. :smile:

Who said anything about the hearafter? :confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4457955 - 07/26/05 10:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

While humanity is one as a species, I tend to see people in descending groups. I consider my familly first, my community second, my country third, my world community fourth. I learned an idea a few years back. All humans have a circle of concern and a circle of influence. The circle of concern is usually larger than the circle of influence. If you try to affect issues inside your circle of concern you are addressing issues that you have little or no influence over. If one works within the circle of influence one can have immediate effect. If one works effectively inside the circle of influence it gets larger so a bit more of ones circle of concern falls inside the circle of influence. For instance, if I wanted to end the war in Iraq so I immediately try to set up an appointment with the president to tell him to lay off Iraq I would not get far. While the presidents actions are inside my circle of concern, they are not under my influence. A better option would be to effectively arrange protests within my community involving people who I have influence over. Then say I attracted media attention...my circle of influence just grew larger. It makes more sense to me to consider the people over whom I hold influence to be more immediately important than those over whom I have no influence. I have found this idea to be highly effective. I cross bridges as I come to them...I do not try to cross them all at once.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4457978 - 07/26/05 11:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

To each his own. :thumbup:

You have to remember that Gomp and I ( and John Lennon) are dreaming. So we often play by different rules. :grin: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4458695 - 07/27/05 01:49 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

i gotta admit i liked your posts hue, i enjoyed seeing as your position seemed to sway side to side as the thread developed
like a tree still in the same place but somehow different for the experience almost


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4459561 - 07/27/05 09:43 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So, g*d bless each ones own country ? That sounds like, g*d bless country. I would prefer: "G*d bless earth"
(BTW, I am no supporter of land-claiming white guys, but I must admit that my national Bavarian Hymn also starts with "G*d with you, the land of the Bavarians". Crazy Humans :wink:)


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4459623 - 07/27/05 10:03 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

" i enjoyed seeing as your position seemed to sway side to side as the thread developed
like a tree still in the same place but somehow different for the experience almost"

Thanks, I am for the most part a stubborn bastard, but I do give a little here and there. My position is not steadfast in every respect. Not every opinion I have is well thought out. Since I started posting on the Shroomery many of my positions have shifted dramatically. If you check my earlier posts you will see a big change in my opinions on politics. I once viewed myself as a staunch political conservative, but lately I am no longer sure what my politics are...Libertarian maybe?? In real life most of my friends these days seem to be liberals. That is just an example. We should all try to take influence where it is offered as long as it seems pertinant to our lives. I have a shell...we all do...but it can be cracked.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4459668 - 07/27/05 10:23 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The crack in the cosmic egg so to speak. :thumbup: Ever read that one Hue? By J Chilton Perce I believe.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4459710 - 07/27/05 10:34 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I have heard of it...don't know much about it. The shell I refered to was my ego and my self image relating to it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4459741 - 07/27/05 10:44 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yes! there is a relationship to your post. The Crack in the Cosmic Egg, and Exploring the Crack in the Cosmic Egg, were the first books I read which looked into the same ideas as Castanada did but from a more scientific point of view. Very good reads. I recommend them to you. The concepts are not easy to get your head around. You may have more luck then I did. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4459794 - 07/27/05 11:05 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I'll check it out.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4459812 - 07/27/05 11:14 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

stick the cracked cosmic Ego on a bumper and call it american


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4459833 - 07/27/05 11:22 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
So why are there so many patriotic Americans? Cause its a pretty "new" country, or that it being fueld by self-intrest?




Gomp can surely correct me if my opinion on this is baseless and does not represent that actual truth of the matter, and the possibillity that I am wrong on this is definitely possible due to many factors; however, in my experience of being in Norway for a year, I observed quite a potent strain of patriotism there, and Norway is a country that doesn't fit your two possible conclusions (however, it is to be noted that Norway has struggled for a great amount of the time in the past to be its own, independant nation, as it was often occupied by either Sweden or Denmark).

But, of course, I didn't see people gladly giving away their rights as citizens of that country simply because they are proud to be from that country. I didn't observe the government staging massive terrorist attacks as a ploy to subtly herd sheep into the pen... I saw a government that, while the flag is mostly red, actually worked to set their people up for success (I'm obviously not claiming that it was perfect, different methods of governing, and the gas and car thing is just insane :nut:)...

Blah blah blah! :grin: It's sort of disappointing to see a thread get so many responses, but so few of them anywhere near the true discussion of the ideas presented. :confused:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God Bless America [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4459839 - 07/27/05 11:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup: It's been easy for me to go off topic here. Patriotism in this country is such a knee jerk thing. I used to consider myself a patriot. And I thought about it much like you do. I dropped the term in disgust because of the way Americans were abusing it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/27/05 11:27 AM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4459840 - 07/27/05 11:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What is your point on that statement. You too live in "North America" are you refering to Ameica the continent or the USA?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4459854 - 07/27/05 11:30 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

There is nothing wrong with being concerned for the place you live...that is patriotism. The USA has one of the highest standards of living on the planet...that goes a long way towards gaining the good will of the citizens. It ain't perfect...and there is a lot of fucked up shit going on...but it ain't that bad either. If we all would focus on leaving the world a better place than we found it instead of bitching and crying, like many do, without acting, the problems would abate.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4459867 - 07/27/05 11:36 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I consider myself to be merely a tourist in this world. Doing the best i can for others in the time and circumstances that remains in my short life on this planet.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4459871 - 07/27/05 11:38 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I love this country. The rivers the lakes, the trees, forests, plains, medows, mountains and wildlife, This is were my loyalties are.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4459895 - 07/27/05 11:53 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
There is nothing wrong with being concerned for the place you live...that is patriotism. The USA has one of the highest standards of living on the planet...




What I find remarkable is how various European countries, especially noted Scandanavian countries, maintain nearly the same standards of living as the United States while having an intensely lower population and amount of resources. :grin:

Well, specifically, in Norway's case, they are the second largest producer of oil in the world, so I guess it isn't as if there is an insane lack of resources there, if you know what I mean. :lol:

And your point is well-taken (if that indeed needs to be hyphenated, I'm not adept at the rules of hyphenation :lol:). Our environment defines us, and we are in constant interaction with it. Positive patrioism is probably a great thing. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4459944 - 07/27/05 12:15 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4459955 - 07/27/05 12:18 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
What is your point on that statement. You too live in "North America" are you refering to Ameica the continent or the USA?




right
no distinctions
why not a ha ha?


--------------------
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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4459997 - 07/27/05 12:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
http://www.cardinalcollective.com/blog/archives/2004/02/000757.html

:toast:




Ouch! No bragging rights for "God's country" :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4460033 - 07/27/05 12:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You mean Satans country! That much polution can only come from hell :wink:

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4460131 - 07/27/05 01:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
You mean Satans country! That much polution can only come from hell :wink:



That must explain why the Soviet Union had far worse pollution problems.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4460174 - 07/27/05 01:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

is this more thick patriotic traffic imagining bumperstickers
or have we landed in a mall parking lot,
looking at the fenders of random station wagons


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4460209 - 07/27/05 01:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Arp said:
http://www.cardinalcollective.com/blog/archives/2004/02/000757.html

:toast:




Ouch! No bragging rights for "God's country" :mushroom2:



Actually, America has plenty to brag about.  No other country has as high a degree of free speech as America does.  Americans also give the most private charity donations of any nationality.  Also, our unemployment rate is much lower than most European social democracies.  America certainly isn't perfect, but the socialist assholes who try to say it's a decrepit wasteland have their heads up their collectivist asses.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4460232 - 07/27/05 01:41 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

you might be right but
shorter sentences (bumper) stick it better


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4460299 - 07/27/05 01:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Good post.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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OfflineDrink_Punk_Soda
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4460322 - 07/27/05 02:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It's a lot easier for those socialist assholes to make those comments when a good portion of US citizens are disenchanted with their government and making the same comments, true or otherwise. It's self-propegating.


--------------------

Kumbayah my lord, Kumbayah...

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4460461 - 07/27/05 02:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I don't share oversized nationalism.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4460540 - 07/27/05 03:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Free speech? charity? unemployment rates?

You don't need charity if your system works with you.
We overproduce man! People can relax and split the workload! Today people work too much.
I don't think there is any less free speech in Scandinavia than in the US.

Dude please. *edit (read properly :smile:)* hell can be big. Doesnt necessarly have to only include the US :wink:

Edited by Arp (07/27/05 03:29 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4460638 - 07/27/05 03:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
You don't need charity if your system works with you.



And you don't need socialism if people will give voluntarily instead of being forced to do so.

Quote:

We overproduce man!



How so?

Quote:

People can relax and split the workload!



If they choose to, then fine. But many people would rather work more so they can enjoy a higher standard of living.

Quote:

Today people work too much.



Says you. I think people can be the judge of that themselves, instead of letting some arrogant socialist decide that for them.

Quote:

I don't think there is any less free speech in Scandinavia than in the US.



Then you're wrong. Try using a racial slur in a public speech in Sweden. In America, it doesn't matter how controversial your speech is, as long as it's not intended to start a riot, and doesn't reveal classified information.


--------------------

Edited by Paradigm (07/27/05 03:44 PM)

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4460712 - 07/27/05 04:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So if your rich, you don't have to work to enjoy a higher living standard. If your poor you can not.
By being poor you are forced to submission

Wealth doesnt necessarly have to mean that you have worked hard to get it. It can be random. Or kiss the right ass and you might get a piece of the pie.

By higher living standards you mean exploitation of available resources.

So basicly what you are saying "free speech", enforced submission & excess is MORE important than elimination of poverty, available education & a healthy life for the general population?

Sounds like the reasoning of a very spoiled person.

People here arent suffering from not being able to threaten groups of people I can tell you that! And realy, we don't need to.

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Invisiblespud
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4460729 - 07/27/05 04:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

your = of or relating to you or yourself or yourselves especially as possessor or possessors
you're = you are

That is all, you silly socialist.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4460750 - 07/27/05 04:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You know what I mean damn bully!

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4460757 - 07/27/05 04:16 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
So if your rich, you don't have to work to enjoy a higher living standard. If your poor you can not.
By being poor you are forced to submission



Bullshit. You become rich by working harder. That has been the story of countless millionaires.

Quote:

Wealth doesnt necessarly have to mean that you have worked hard to get it. It can be random. Or kiss the right ass and you might get a piece of the pie.



I won't deny that there are people whose wealth is not due to working harder. But if you think that working harder can't help you succeed, then you've got some major misconceptions.

Quote:

By higher living standards you mean exploitation of available resources.



No, I mean higher standards of living: more expendable income, more financial security, etc.

Quote:

So basicly what you are saying "free speech", enforced submission & excess is MORE important than elimination of poverty, available education & a healthy life for the general population?



Socialism does not eliminate poverty. It spreads out the poverty to the whole population. Socialism has created massive poverty in Africa. Furthermore, socialism is enforced submission, not capitalism. Socialism forces you to submit the fruits of your labor to the state. Capitalism gives people the freedom to use the wealth they create as they see fit. As for this "excess" you speak of, who's defining what is excessive? I believe that would you. Quit being arrogant and let people decide for themselves what is excessive and what isn't. As for education, in case you weren't aware, we have public schools in America too. There are superior aspects to the European school system, but they have nothing to do with socialism vs. capitalism. As for the health of the population, it's up to the individual to maintain their health. If Americans choose to pig out on fast food, that's their decision.

Quote:

Sounds like the reasoning of a very spoiled person.



Only because you twist my words to the point where they have no relation to what I have actually said.

Quote:

People here arent suffering from not being able to threaten groups of people I can tell you that! And realy, we don't need to.



WTF is that supposed to mean?


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4460783 - 07/27/05 04:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

mean higher standards of living: more expendable income, more financial security, etc.

You don't need that shit if you're in a caring system that helps out when things get rough. See it as a social security.

You can live a rich life without working your balls off.
Don't let your masters decieve you.

Socialism spreads out poverty? Check the statistics man. It speaks for itself.

Note: Sweden is NOT a socialistic country. Its a cross-breed.
You can aquire higher standards by working hard but not with fluxuations as in the US.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4460798 - 07/27/05 04:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

WTF is that supposed to mean?

It seems like you preach free speech just for the sake of it.
What about living a peacefull life WITHOUT being threatend by
prejudiced groups? Take the Nazis for instance. Or the KKK.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4460838 - 07/27/05 04:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
mean higher standards of living: more expendable income, more financial security, etc.

You don't need that shit if you're in a caring system that helps out when things get rough. See it as a social security.



That "caring system" is based on robbing others of the products of their labor.

Quote:

You can live a rich life without working your balls off.



Only if you mooch off of the hard work of others. You can't create wealth without working for it.

Quote:

Don't let your masters decieve you.



I'm not the one being decieved.

Quote:

Socialism spreads out poverty? Check the statistics man. It speaks for itself.



Scandinavia is not socialism. It is welfare capitalism. And those countries can only afford to have such massive entitlement programs because they have allowed private enterprise. If you look at real socialism, such as North Korea, the Soviet Union, and various African or Latin American countries, you can see the real bankruptcy of the system.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4460842 - 07/27/05 04:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
WTF is that supposed to mean?

It seems like you preach free speech just for the sake of it.
What about living a peacefull life WITHOUT being threatend by
prejudiced groups? Take the Nazis for instance. Or the KKK.



Their ability to speak freely is not a threat to a peaceful life. If free speech does not apply to those whose opinions we disagree with most, then it means nothing.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4460859 - 07/27/05 04:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Zzzzzzzz

Do you ACTUALLY belive that some Swedes are working their asses of for the many??? C'mon man

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4460875 - 07/27/05 04:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Their ability to speak freely is not a threat to a peaceful life. If free speech does not apply to those whose opinions we disagree with most, then it means nothing.




Some lunatics are always convinced and take actions.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4460884 - 07/27/05 04:54 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

More so than in America, where more people work to support themselves, rather than working extra hard to support others. Of course, Sweden has a much lower GDP, so obviously people aren't willing to work that hard for others to mooch off them.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4460911 - 07/27/05 05:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

If you are #1 one why try harder?

We have come a long way baby! :laugh:

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4460921 - 07/27/05 05:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
If you are #1 one why try harder?

We have come a long way baby! :laugh:



huh?  :what:


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4460935 - 07/27/05 05:11 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I'd like to point out that the growing consesus among Americans doesn't even appear to be patriotism at all. It is simply a romanticized jingoism, and we know this methodology worked very well for Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist German Workers Party in Germany during their campaigns that were supported by many "patriotic" Americans. The propaganda system that was developed during that time is used even more efficiently in the current states of the world. With the development of the internet and worldwide media, further globalization, the spread of democracy and communism (yea it's still around in that modicum of archipelago beneath the United States), and their collective discontents there grows an even more horrendous image. This entire mass of common subjects, even the one we are discussing now, is apart of the 21st century "manifest destiny" that is meant to steer the population away from the real picture.

My 2 cents.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461005 - 07/27/05 05:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Are you saying that being able to accommodate great wealth is the road to happiness?

If you are happy with your life the way it is, then why would you want to change it?

People in poverty arent generally very happy about it.

I'd say there is enough resources for everybody to be able to live decent happy lives!
We don't need them Scrooge McDucks pilling them up in their banks,
giving small hand-outs when they feel a rising guilt-trip.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461153 - 07/27/05 06:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Arp said:
http://www.cardinalcollective.com/blog/archives/2004/02/000757.html

:toast:




Ouch! No bragging rights for "God's country" :mushroom2:



Actually, America has plenty to brag about.  No other country has as high a degree of free speech as America does.  Americans also give the most private charity donations of any nationality.  Also, our unemployment rate is much lower than most European social democracies.  America certainly isn't perfect, but the socialist assholes who try to say it's a decrepit wasteland have their heads up their collectivist asses.




My quote only related to the cagatories in the list.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: trick]
    #4461378 - 07/27/05 07:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

This entire mass of common subjects, even the one we are discussing now, is apart of the 21st century "manifest destiny" that is meant to steer the population away from the real picture.



Tell me about the real picture :tongue:

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4461399 - 07/27/05 07:28 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Are you saying that being able to accommodate great wealth is the road to happiness?



It's quite simple, really: greater wealth = more buying power = more options = higher standard of living

Quote:

If you are happy with your life the way it is, then why would you want to change it?



What does that have to do with anything here?

Quote:

People in poverty arent generally very happy about it.



No shit Sherlock. I'm sure those starving masses in North Korea are pretty pissed about it.

Quote:

I'd say there is enough resources for everybody to be able to live decent happy lives!



True, but not if a bunch of idiotic socialists screw it up for them with their misguided idealism.

Quote:

We don't need them Scrooge McDucks pilling them up in their banks, giving small hand-outs when they feel a rising guilt-trip.



Nor do we need socialists who don't know a lick of economics screwing up the world by imposing their idiotic policies.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461433 - 07/27/05 07:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

:rofl:


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4461440 - 07/27/05 07:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
:rofl:



:confused:


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461467 - 07/27/05 07:45 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I'd say there is enough resources for everybody to be able to live decent happy lives!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


True, but not if a bunch of idiotic socialists screw it up for them with their misguided idealism.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We don't need them Scrooge McDucks pilling them up in their banks, giving small hand-outs when they feel a rising guilt-trip.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nor do we need socialists who don't know a lick of economics screwing up the world by imposing their idiotic policies.

--------------------
:hissyfit: Politics. lol


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461481 - 07/27/05 07:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It's quite simple, really: greater wealth = more buying power = more options = higher standard of living

= more waste of resources that could have been used to help those in need.

What does that have to do with anything here?

You see, take my country for instance. Free healthcare, full social
wellfare, very little poverty. I think this model works well.
Could  probably be fine tuned but nobody less fortunate, unable to work is left out.
Oh yeah and we are pretty enviroment friendly too! :thumbup:

I'm sure those starving masses in North Korea are pretty pissed about it.

What does that have to do with anything here? Im speaking about the Scandinavian model.


True, but not if a bunch of idiotic socialists screw it up for them with their misguided idealism.

Depends on how you look at it, your ideal of being able to aquire great wealth sounds pretty screwed up aswell!

Nor do we need socialists who don't know a lick of economics screwing up the world by imposing their idiotic policies.

Only liberals screwing up Sweden at the moment :wink:

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4461502 - 07/27/05 07:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
It's quite simple, really: greater wealth = more buying power = more options = higher standard of living

= more waste of resources that could have been used to help those in need.



= no clue on your part

Quote:

What does that have to do with anything here?

You see, take my country for instance. Free healthcare, full social
wellfare, very little poverty. I think this model works well.
Could  probably be fine tuned but nobody less fortunate, unable to work is left out.
Oh yeah and we are pretty enviroment friendly too! :thumbup:



Yes, some countries have managed to do that.  But it often means that many of those who want to work are unable to do so due to a lack of jobs.  And note that these are still capitalist countries with private enterprise.  They just happen to have large entitlement programs which make the economy sluggish.

Quote:

I'm sure those starving masses in North Korea are pretty pissed about it.

What does that have to do with anything here? Im speaking about the Scandinavian model.



Ah, so you're advocating welfare capitalism.  Well, that changes everything, then.

Quote:

True, but not if a bunch of idiotic socialists screw it up for them with their misguided idealism.

Depends on how you look at it, your ideal of being able to aquire great wealth sounds pretty screwed up aswell!



You have no clue what my ideals are.

Quote:

Nor do we need socialists who don't know a lick of economics screwing up the world by imposing their idiotic policies.

Only liberals screwing up Sweden at the moment :wink:



If I recall correctly, Sweden has the toughest drug laws in Europe.  Guess our countries do have something in common.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4461515 - 07/27/05 08:00 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

consumerism will be the death of our planet. fuck america :dancinghitler:  yay sweden. :cheer:

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461546 - 07/27/05 08:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Scandinavia is not socialism. It is welfare capitalism. And those countries can only afford to have such massive entitlement programs because they have allowed private enterprise. If you look at real socialism, such as North Korea, the Soviet Union, and various African or Latin American countries, you can see the real bankruptcy of the system.




Scandinavian has a mixed economy, enjoying the best from socialism and capitalism. It would be best defined as 'market socialism'. Soviet Communism, and similar ilk, isn't the only kind of socialism.

"All the Scandinavian nations except Norway rank among the world's 25 most free economies, according to the Heritage Foundation/Wall Street Journal Index of Economic Freedom."
There is also an absence of crime, slums, and poverty... although the suicide rate is rather high.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461589 - 07/27/05 08:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You have no clue what my ideals are.

You worship satan and sacrifice infants? :rant:

Yes, some countries have managed to do that. But it often means
that many of those who want to work are unable to do so due to a
lack of jobs. And note that these are still capitalist countries
with private enterprise. They just happen to have large entitlement
programs which make the economy sluggish.


You can't live a happy life without a job? OMG!
Yes the private enterprise. People are becoming alienated unable to
identify with their fellow man. Distrust everywhere. I belive this
growing dominator culture is mainly because of outside influences
(crap-culture) and globalisation. Maybe it'll change when people
realize that they wont find happyness in their next purchase and
from the sky get struck by compassion. If they are not TOO fucked up
by then!

Ah, so you're advocating welfare capitalism. Well, that changes everything, then.

Sure a place with social security for every one.

Besides that I don't see why some private enterprise can't co-exist.
Aslong as it doesnt exploit nor pollute the earth and its people.

Wealth-fetishism is pretty perverse :sad:

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Re: God Bless America [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4461703 - 07/27/05 08:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Scandinavian has a mixed economy, enjoying the best from socialism and capitalism.



No, the best aspects of capitalism and socialism are combined in Georgism. Scandinavian-style social democracy may be better than the Soviet style, but it still suffers from high unemployment and lack of incentives.

Quote:

It would be best defined as 'market socialism'.



No, "market socialism" is what China currently has.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: psychomime]
    #4461725 - 07/27/05 09:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"consumerism will be the death of our planet. fuck america yay sweden."

There are no consumers in Sweden??? I would like to know what the fuck they eat....grass??


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461731 - 07/27/05 09:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You are arguing against a tide of ignorance here. Ignorance doesn't need an excuse for itself because it knows no better. Good job nevertheless.


--------------------
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4461750 - 07/27/05 09:09 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

but it still suffers from high unemployment and lack of incentives.

Dude. Whats the fuzz about employmency? Is it some American workingclass-hero sentimentality im hearing?

Lack of incentives? We no frikkin donkeys for god sake!

Edited by Arp (07/28/05 01:51 AM)

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464285 - 07/28/05 11:32 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Dude. Whats the fuzz about employmency? Is it some American workingclass-hero sentimentality im hearing?



Without being able to work, people are unable to improve their circumstances.

Quote:

Lack of incentives? We no frikkin donkeys for god sake!



People need to be rewarded for the work they contribute. This is common sense, yet it seems to be beyond the grasp of most socialists.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464349 - 07/28/05 11:49 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

People need to be rewarded for the work they contribute. This is common sense, yet it seems to be beyond the grasp of most socialists.

______________________________________________________

Why I am jumping in here I don't know. :crazy: But I think $$ is not the only way to be rewarded for working. But this idea awaits further human evolution. :mushroom2:


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4464403 - 07/28/05 12:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

People need to be rewarded for the work they contribute. This is common sense

And you can ONLY be rewarded with wealth? That's so freakin mindless.
If thats your view on humanity then there is no reason keeping on this discussion.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464408 - 07/28/05 12:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
People need to be rewarded for the work they contribute. This is common sense

And you can ONLY be rewarded with wealth? That's so freakin mindless.



They need to be rewarded with something more than a pat on the back. The reward needs to be proportional to the disutility involved in the effort they've put in.

Quote:

If thats your view on humanity then there is no reason keeping on this discussion.



Likewise


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4464429 - 07/28/05 12:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You are just feeding the pointlessness of this discussion as was I. I quit 2 days ago on this because it is useless to discuss under the circumstances of this thread.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4464447 - 07/28/05 12:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yes Hue, I know. I couldn't help myself. :tongue: I generally stay away from political issues like I stay out of religious ones. Still I can't help but drop my 2 cents now and again.  I have always had a big mouth,  but I'm sure you know that by now.  :grin:


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4464457 - 07/28/05 12:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah that is how I felt....but there are too many emotions being expressed to discuss it rationally...and I got tired of the insults.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464494 - 07/28/05 12:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
They need to be rewarded with something more than a pat on the back. The reward needs to be proportional to the disutility involved in the effort they've put in.




Let me tell you. It IS possible to feel good about being able to contribute WITHOUT necessarly having to recieve any wealth as compensation.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464503 - 07/28/05 12:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
They need to be rewarded with something more than a pat on the back. The reward needs to be proportional to the disutility involved in the effort they've put in.




Let me tell you. It IS possible to feel good about being able to contribute WITHOUT necessarly having to recieve any wealth as compensation.



No shit. Try running a society based on that, and see where it gets you. You're not going to get people to go through years of medical school just to get paid the same as a janitor.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464523 - 07/28/05 12:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You're not going to get people to go through years of medical school just to get paid the same as a janitor.

Don't you think people would be interested in learning & helping humanity unless they were compensated with wealth?

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Invisiblespud
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464543 - 07/28/05 12:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
You're not going to get people to go through years of medical school just to get paid the same as a janitor.

Don't you think people would be interested in learning & helping humanity unless they were compensated with wealth?




10 years of medical school is a bit much without monetary compensation.

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OfflineProsgeopax
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464556 - 07/28/05 12:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Newsflash! The facts are in, history has shown that 'from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs' leads to the economic disintegration of a society. Regardless of how wonderful it may sound, human nature is at odds with such naive utopian idealism. Organisms (humans included) respond to material incentives. Get used to it, it's the nature of life.


--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.

You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite

Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Prosgeopax]
    #4464594 - 07/28/05 01:07 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I have no problems with slight differences in wages. Im not the jealous type.
What I don't like to see is poverty. Not that im suffering from it. Neither am I selfish.

10 years of medical school is a bit much without monetary compensation.

What about being able to help your fellow humans? Isnt that compensation enough?
Interests go beyond wealth & hunger for excess. You can study and be rewarded knowledge aswell.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464602 - 07/28/05 01:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Organisms (humans included) respond to material incentives. Get used to it, it's the nature of life.

Newsflash! We respond to alot more than material incentives.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: God Bless America [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4464689 - 07/28/05 01:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
There is also an absence of crime, slums, and poverty...




Personally, I feel that it is important to maintain one's environment. :thumbup:

Quote:


although the suicide rate is rather high.




Sounds like Denmark to me. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464733 - 07/28/05 01:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

No, "market socialism" is what China currently has.

---blink in---
No. It's still comunism there.
Here in Germany, we have marketsocialism, which is called somehow translated: social market-economy.
But it falls more and more together, destructed ba greedy asocial capitalistic super-ego-profitlike industries and companies.
They ruin each country...

They are superevil
---blink out---


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464789 - 07/28/05 01:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

Arp said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
They need to be rewarded with something more than a pat on the back. The reward needs to be proportional to the disutility involved in the effort they've put in.




Let me tell you. It IS possible to feel good about being able to contribute WITHOUT necessarly having to recieve any wealth as compensation.



No shit. Try running a society based on that, and see where it gets you. You're not going to get people to go through years of medical school just to get paid the same as a janitor.



Man, man, just get a look at the virgin-island.
But hurry, it soon will be destroyed by billionaires...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464897 - 07/28/05 02:20 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
I have no problems with slight differences in wages. Im not the jealous type.
What I don't like to see is poverty. Not that im suffering from it. Neither am I selfish.



Nor do I wish to see poverty, which is why I advocate Georgism, not socialism. Socialist policies have been the cause of more poverty than they have solved.

Quote:

10 years of medical school is a bit much without monetary compensation.

What about being able to help your fellow humans? Isnt that compensation enough?



Clearly not, or there would be no need for health insurance. It's possible to practice medicine for free, but very few people are willing to do it.

Quote:

Interests go beyond wealth & hunger for excess. You can study and be rewarded knowledge aswell.



I have quite a thirst for knowledge, but knowledge alone doesn't pay the bills. Also, there's more disutility involved in going to school than just studying. Homework and term papers are a bitch, and I'll be damned if I'm still making minimum wage when I graduate.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4464922 - 07/28/05 02:24 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
No, "market socialism" is what China currently has.

---blink in---
No. It's still comunism there.



Where have you been the last decade or so?  Private enterprise is thriving in China, which is one of the main reasons it is becoming a superpower right now.  The state still owns the raw materials such as steel, but commerce is everywhere in China.  They may still call it communism, but it bares no resemblance to Marx's vision.

Quote:

Here in Germany, we have marketsocialism, which is called somehow translated: social market-economy.



I believe the term "social democracy" is often used.  But essentially it is a capitalist welfare state.

Quote:

But it falls more and more together, destructed ba greedy asocial capitalistic super-ego-profitlike industries and companies.
They ruin each country...



Tell that to Hong Kong, or Taiwan, or Singapore, or South Korea.  Free market reforms have turned those places into economic giants.  Same goes for Ireland.

Quote:

They are superevil
---blink out---



:rolleyes:


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4464942 - 07/28/05 02:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Socialist policies have been the cause of more poverty than they have solved.

Not in Sweden.

It's possible to practice medicine for free,but very few people are willing to do it.

Of course if you only value wealth.

I have quite a thirst for knowledge, but knowledge alone doesn't pay the bills.

In Sweden the guverment supports its people who wants to keep on
studying by lending them money. When done and people find related
jobs (often with a greater paycheck) they get to pay it back.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464961 - 07/28/05 02:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"n Sweden the guverment supports its people who wants to keep on
studying by lending them money. When done and people find related
jobs (often with a greater paycheck) they get to pay it back."

We have this in the US...it is called a student loan. And fuck getting one because I don't like owing people money.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4464984 - 07/28/05 02:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Socialist policies have been the cause of more poverty than they have solved.

Not in Sweden.



I'm talking about the world as a whole. Sweden has enough private industry to keep its economy moving, but the socialist policies make the economy more sluggish. In Third World countries, socialism has had disastrous consequences. Developing countries can best serve their poor by opening up their markets.

Quote:

It's possible to practice medicine for free,but very few people are willing to do it.

Of course if you only value wealth.



Oh, cut the arrogant bullshit! 10 years of medical school is a drain on your life. It's a burden, or as economists would call it, a disutility. People don't take on such large burdens without expecting something in return. It is not selfish. It's simply common sense.

Quote:

I have quite a thirst for knowledge, but knowledge alone doesn't pay the bills.

In Sweden the guverment supports its people who wants to keep on
studying by lending them money. When done and people find related
jobs (often with a greater paycheck) they get to pay it back.



See Huehuecoytl's response.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4464993 - 07/28/05 02:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
We have this in the US...it is called a student loan. And fuck getting one because I don't like owing people money.




So knowledge does pay the bills?

Yeah owing people money sucks.
The private enterprise in Sweden is turning more and more rentable apartments into "tenant-ownership" (if that is the right word).

It's very sad. Before the prices were regulated and you didn't have to owe a bank money nor have a great income to be able to find a decent place :rolleyes:

It can take several years today to find an rentable appartment and you need a steady income too. And they are very expensive!

A place to live, knowledge & food to eat should be ensured for everyone.
It still pretty much is but the way things are turning Im not sure for how long.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4465013 - 07/28/05 02:58 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"A place to live, knowledge & food to eat should be ensured for everyone."

I am sure Sweden is a fine place to live, but I lived on $3.35 an hour for a few years in the US once (1986-90). I did't have the cash for a lot of stuff, but I never went hungry. As far as going to school I got a computer programming degree and never paid a dime. I got federal grants to cover the expenses. You don't pay back grants. I have been dirt poor before, but I have never suffered. I am middle class now...got a house in the country, 2 cars, broadband internet, and 5 computers in my living room. I only work for 9 months a year, but get paid for 12...I got it pretty good here in the US so I ain't complaining.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4465020 - 07/28/05 03:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

but the socialist policies make the economy more sluggish.

So what if it is? Lets dont burn more resources than we have to.

It's simply common sense.

Doesn sound like common sense to me. Common sense is seeing that we should work together and not against eachother.
Working together does not exclude people from a decent life and put them in poverty.

History tells that people in poverty have a tendency to overthrow & work against the society - that doesn't make them richer though

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4465051 - 07/28/05 03:11 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe you are living the American dream but that doesnt mean there is any less poverty, less damage done to the enviroment, crime & bad health among the population as statistics can tell.

It is obvious which kind of politics have a tendency to affect these numbers in various ways.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4465068 - 07/28/05 03:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
but the socialist policies make the economy more sluggish.

So what if it is? Lets dont burn more resources than we have to.



You clearly have an ignorant view of the economy. There is more to the economy than natural resources. There are people involved, too. People who work for whatever reward they can get. Your socialist policies reduce the incentives for providing services to other people. If you reduce the incentives too much, then you won't have enough revenue to keep your precious social programs funded.

Quote:

It's simply common sense.

Doesn sound like common sense to me. Common sense is seeing that we should work together and not against eachother.



That is a total red herring. No one has said otherwise.

Quote:

Working together does not exclude people from a decent life and put them in poverty.



Working together is great, but people need to look out for themselves too, as they are naturally inclined to do.

Quote:

History tells that people in poverty have a tendency to overthrow & work against the society - that doesn't make them richer though



That is totally irrelevant to anything I have said.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4465100 - 07/28/05 03:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Your socialist policies reduce the incentives for providing services to other people.

BS

If you reduce the incentives too much, then you won't have enough revenue to keep your precious social programs funded

Your entire tesis is based upon a look at humanity as being mindless and stubborn.
Unless indivduals are granted wealth they'll lose intrested and drop out.

I think this is a very cynical and false. Sorry

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4465139 - 07/28/05 03:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Your socialist policies reduce the incentives for providing services to other people.

BS



If you cannot see one of the most basic observations of economics, then there is no use continuing this debate.

Quote:

If you reduce the incentives too much, then you won't have enough revenue to keep your precious social programs funded

Your entire tesis is based upon a look at humanity as being mindless and stubborn.



Bullshit. My thesis is that people do what's in their best interest. Socialists ignorantly deny this basic aspect of human nature.

Quote:

Unless indivduals are granted wealth they'll lose intrested and drop out.



People are efficient creatures. They try to get the most they can out of their work. Socialist policies hinder their ability to reap the rewards of their work, and thus provide a disincentive to work.

Quote:

I think this is a very cynical and false. Sorry



I think your ideas are naive and hopeless. History agrees. Sorry.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4465193 - 07/28/05 03:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

My thesis is that people do what's in their best interest. Socialists ignorantly deny this basic aspect of human nature.

Okay Adolf. What is human nature to you? Are your calculations done from your observations of your surrounding? Have you ever thought that maybe the society these observations are being made is a society which highly praise egoism & distrust?

Maybe you won't help your friend if you don't get anything out of it.
But all humans are not like that.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4465242 - 07/28/05 04:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think you guys might  chill on the hostilities.  No matter which system is the best, doesn't matter if people don't respect each other and their differences. No one moves forward and "debate" is useless. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4465297 - 07/28/05 04:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I think you guys might  chill on the hostilities.  No matter which system is the best, doesn't matter if people don't respect each other and their differences. No one moves forward and "debate" is useless. :heart:




Agreed. there is no one system that is perfect. each system has it's pro's and cons, I read somewhere that anyone wishing to change a system has everyone who benefitted under the old system as staunch opponents and only those who may benefit under the new as supporters. capitalism works for some and socialism for others because each appeals to different aspects of ourselves. My personal feeling is that with the human population fast approaching carrying capacity, (for non-biologists thats the population size where an environment can no longer support that species food etc requirements), humans need to start thinking sustainability rather than expansion or we're heading down the road to extinction.  :goodnight:

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4465309 - 07/28/05 04:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Okay Adolf.



:lol: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

Quote:

What is human nature to you? Are your calculations done from your observations of your surrounding?



It is done through common sense and observation of evolution.  Acting in one's best interest serves to further one's survival and at the same time can help others.  This is what Adam Smith calls "the invisible hand."

Quote:

Have you ever thought that maybe the society these observations are being made is a society which highly praise egoism & distrust?



My society does not praise these things.  It simply allows people to pursue their own best interest, and in the process, society benefits.

Quote:

Maybe you won't help your friend if you don't get anything out of it.
But all humans are not like that.



Of course I help my friends.  But I have to help myself first, or I have nothing to help them with.  You clearly are mistaking maximizing one's utility with selfishness.  They are not the same.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: psychomime]
    #4465318 - 07/28/05 04:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psychomime said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I think you guys might  chill on the hostilities.  No matter which system is the best, doesn't matter if people don't respect each other and their differences. No one moves forward and "debate" is useless. :heart:




Agreed. there is no one system that is perfect. each system has it's pro's and cons, I read somewhere that anyone wishing to change a system has everyone who benefitted under the old system as staunch opponents and only those who may benefit under the new as supporters. capitalism works for some and socialism for others because each appeals to different aspects of ourselves. My personal feeling is that with the human population fast approaching carrying capacity, (for non-biologists thats the population size where an environment can no longer support that species food etc requirements), humans need to start thinking sustainability rather than expansion or we're heading down the road to extinction.  :goodnight:



This is why I do not advocate pure capitalism or socialism, though I do think capitalism is superior to socialism in most respects.  Georgism is what this world needs to solve poverty as well as many environmental issues.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4465560 - 07/28/05 05:41 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

This is why I do not advocate pure capitalism or socialism, though I do think capitalism is superior to socialism in most respects. Georgism is what this world needs to solve poverty as well as many environmental issues.




from the brief read i had through your link, I'd agree with georgism. I also agree with you that capitalism is a good system in that it stimulates research, maximises efficiency and is generally fair. my beef is with unbridled comsumerism and the belief that happiness is only found in material wealth. sure it's a major incentive but it shouldn't be promoted as an acceptable social value because it isn't sustainable. there is going to be an unavoidable huge increase in competition for resources amongst humans unless we start changing the mindset.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4465762 - 07/28/05 06:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Maybe you are living the American dream but that doesnt mean there is any less poverty, less damage done to the enviroment, crime & bad health among the population as statistics can tell."

I have been to the bottom of the rung on poverty...come on $3.35 an hour with two kids and a nonworking wife (she watched kids). I was poor as hell. I never went hungry....or lived homeless. All it takes is to look for a job. I fell into working as a firefighter for many years. My wife put herself through college with my support and became a school teacher. Then I went back to school. I had no wealthy parents to fall back on...I made my own way in the world and I did well. I have a disabled brother (schizophrenia) and he is not a homeless beggar either. He just completed a degree in sociology last fall while bearing the weight of his illness. In the US you can be what you want with a little motivation and effort.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4465773 - 07/28/05 06:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I agree. Though there is a pretty prevalent glass ceiling, with enough effort and hard work you can become pretty much anything (within the middle class).

My parents came here as illegal immigrants. My father is now a psychiatrist at the top hospital around. We live extremely comfortable.

He was dirt poor when he came here.

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Re: God Bless America [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4466290 - 07/28/05 08:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
[Oops. To Hue:]
Right, and by definition, it is only the g*d of jews. (Ask someone who reads the talmud about this, if he dares to share)
I mean, that's the same intention. Why should g*d 'bless' america only, where most of americans are christians (not jews) when christ tells 'love your enemy' ?
That's some exclusivilty the 'new' (and [I think] also the pre-talmudian) g*d does not know... He wants, that all people will live together in peace...
I would understand a sticker like 'God bless you' or something like that...




Isn't the g*d of the Jews Yahweh?


--------------------
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Re: God Bless America [Re: spud]
    #4466336 - 07/28/05 09:00 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Rising above the middle class is doable, but do most people really want to put forth that much effort...it requires a lot of time and effort most people will not invest.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: God Bless America [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4467623 - 07/29/05 01:48 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

there is going to be an unavoidable huge increase in competition for resources amongst humans unless we start changing the mindset

And how do we change peoples mindset if it's all about being able to accumulate wealth?

But I have to help myself first

I still do not think that you necessarly have to put yourself first to be able to maintain a good working society that is for everyone (including yourself!)

The more people work their asses off, the more you'll have to work your ass off to be able to keep up so you can sustain your lifestyle. It's a vicious cycle and it's called efficency & competition but to what costs?

The demands on the workers might increase but that doesnt mean the paycheck will. I have personaly witnessed this :thumbdown:

Edited by Arp (07/29/05 01:54 AM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4468098 - 07/29/05 07:00 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
there is going to be an unavoidable huge increase in competition for resources amongst humans unless we start changing the mindset

And how do we change peoples mindset if it's all about being able to accumulate wealth?



You have a very warped view of what wealth is.  Wealth isn't just natural resources.  Wealth can mean human services too.  I can spend money on a massage just as I can spend it on a new hybrid car.  Your hatred for wealth is self-defeating.

Quote:

But I have to help myself first

I still do not think that you necessarly have to put yourself first to be able to maintain a good working society that is for everyone (including yourself!)



Then you have not looked at the logistical and logical applications of it.  If I must help others first, then it follows that I must help everyone first.  But I can only expend so much labor, and before I can feed everyone in the world, I will have died of starvation.  However, if I can take care of myself first, my immediate friends and family second, and the rest of humanity third, I can contribute a lot more.  Even in the process of helping myself, I am helping others by creating more wealth to distribute.

Quote:

The more people work their asses off, the more you'll have to work your ass off to be able to keep up so you can sustain your lifestyle. It's a vicious cycle and it's called efficency & competition but to what costs?



Do you even know what efficiency is?

Quote:

The demands on the workers might increase but that doesnt mean the paycheck will. I have personaly witnessed this :thumbdown:



I'm sure.  It happens all the time under socialism.  The government demands more production, and the workers keep getting the same, because in socialism, everyone makes the same wages.


--------------------

Edited by Paradigm (07/29/05 08:03 AM)

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4468262 - 07/29/05 08:43 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

everyone makes the same wages.

Well im not advocating a system where everyone makes the same wages.
So I have said over and over.

Do you even know what efficiency is?

Yes

I can only expend so much labor, and before I can feed everyone in the world, I will have died of starvation.

I, I & more I. Dude.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4468284 - 07/29/05 08:57 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Do you even know what efficiency is?

Yes



The statement in which you used the word indicates otherwise.

Quote:

I can only expend so much labor, and before I can feed everyone in the world, I will have died of starvation.

I, I & more I. Dude.



Is that your idea of an argument?


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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4468304 - 07/29/05 09:06 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Is that your idea of an argument?

Your are basicly saying that humans are selfish and they won't work for anything unless they are personaly rewarded with posession or wealth.

Everything you say points to that. And if you discuss according to those belives then this is totaly pointless.

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4468308 - 07/29/05 09:09 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Arp said:
Is that your idea of an argument?

Your are basicly saying that humans are selfish and they won't work for anything unless they are personaly rewarded with posession or wealth.

Everything you say points to that. And if you discuss according to those belives then this is totaly pointless.



Bullshit. I am merely making the blatantly obvious observation that people need to look out for themselves in order to survive. This doesn't preclude helping others. It merely means that people need to look out for their own needs too. If you cannot recognize this basic fact of human existence, then you are hopelessly lost to ideology.


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4468319 - 07/29/05 09:13 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I see benefit to both systems. All problems that I see come from a state of fear/greed.  One should be compensated for their work. I think often there is way to much difference in wage scale between work. Scientist will not be happy at work with out a plumber, and no one will be happy if no one ever cleans the toilet.  The difference in wage scale between the manager and the maintenance man is sometimes criminal. 

It's really about motive. If you are rich and give freely to others and are a loving and caring person, No one complains. If you covet money above all else and use it to control people and don't care what harm you getting more does to the world; then people complain.

It's not one or the other system really it's what kind of a person you are. A healthy well balanced people would do well in either system, or better yet, combining the best of both.

How about that guys? Could you combine aspects of both and have it work better than one or the other? Until we learn how to work together and see each others point of view as worthwhile, we have stalemate. :heart: :thumbup: :smile:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4468329 - 07/29/05 09:20 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I see benefit to both systems. All problems that I see come from a state of fear/greed.  One should be compensated for their work. I think often there is way to much difference in wage scale between work. Scientist will not be happy at work with out a plumber, and no one will be happy if no one ever cleans the toilet.  The difference in wage scale between the manager and the maintenance man is sometimes criminal. 

It's really about motive. If you are rich and give freely to others and are a loving and caring person, No one complains. If you covet money above all else and use it to control people and don't care what harm you getting more does to the world; then people complain.

It's not one or the other system really it's what kind of a person you are. A healthy well balanced people would do well in either system, or better yet, combining the best of both.

How about that guys? Could you combine aspects of both and have it work better than one or the other? Until we learn how to work together and see each others point of view as worthwhile, we have stalemate. :heart: :thumbup: :smile:



I have already stated that I do not advocate pure capitalism, but rather Georgism, since it solves the main equity issues which are prevalent in capitalism.  Socialism has a nice idea behind it, but it does not pan out so well in the real world precisely because it ignores or denies the fact that people do what's in their best interest.  Capitalism is more effective because it takes this into account, and uses it for the benefit of society.  Unfortunately, some people get left behind.  This is why the welfare state has come into existence, but it is a poor substitute for the optimum prosperity inherent in Georgism.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4468344 - 07/29/05 09:28 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I checked out that site. It looked good. when will we see it implemented? :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4468354 - 07/29/05 09:33 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I checked out that site. It looked good. when will we see it implemented? :grin:



Hopefully in our lifetime.  I'm hoping that the oil crisis will create the conditions under which such a system will become a necessity..


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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4468370 - 07/29/05 09:41 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Any system without poverty, unnecessary pollution & having to work yourself half to death to be able to live a decent life is fine with me!

That is pretty much the case in Sweden now, but we still work around 40h/week (they are trying 30h in some places thou! wippi!)
And you can get a free year too! That rules! :smile:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4468579 - 07/29/05 10:48 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Where I work 25 hrs is considered full time with full benefits. And our benefits are awsome.  :thumbup: :cool:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleArp
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Icelander]
    #4468592 - 07/29/05 10:52 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Where I work 25 hrs is considered full time with full benefits. And our benefits are awsome.  :thumbup: :cool:




:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Is that hard work or what? :cool:

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Arp]
    #4470263 - 07/29/05 04:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Here, officially 35 hours, but the pressure is to work more for lower salary. Many psychological tricks are used. Our politicians stand befor a collapse.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (07/29/05 04:56 PM)

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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: God Bless America [Re: chinadoll]
    #4470297 - 07/29/05 04:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Isn't the g*d of the Jews Yahweh?



They just weren't so sure about the vocals :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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OfflineNinjamutantballe
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Silversoul]
    #4470379 - 07/29/05 05:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I just have to comment on paradigms idea of surviving versus helping
others. Isn't it a strange paradox that you claim you want to put
yourself in first room, to help yourself first, instead of others,
because you need to survive, when the fact is that this is a basic
condition manufactured by the very system you are trying to defend?

Quote:


I'm sure. It happens all the time under socialism. The government
demands more production, and the workers keep getting the same,
because in socialism, everyone makes the same wages.




This is interesting. How much DO you know about socialism, I mean
really? Sounds like you have created yourself quite a boogieman.
Who told you socialism advocates same wages?

Then I think it's strange you put such effort in bombarding
socialism, when discussing to Arp, when he has never claimed
he defends socialism or less claims being a socialist? Not
everybody who criticizes capitalism is socialist.

Also, would be interesting to hear how you mean
socialism CREATES poverty.

...and watch me dance... tralalala


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Ninja?

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Invisiblelooner2
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Re: God Bless America [Re: Ninjamutantballe]
    #4470628 - 07/29/05 05:58 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"God Bless America" is a good thing. In general people value and hold God in the highest esteem and therefore associating it with their nation only tightens their bond to their country. America needs more patriots and less-intellectuals. Thats the reality of this world.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: God Bless America [Re: looner2]
    #4470767 - 07/29/05 06:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Your wish is quickly becomming a reality. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: God Bless America [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4470980 - 07/29/05 07:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Tricks :thumbup:
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