ChuangTzu said:

Gilgamesh18 said:

Socialist polices like minimum wage impoverise the worker and they actually don't benefit from it.

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That's right.

If there was no minimum wage, all of the poor, unskilled people that some people in this thread profess to support--who would gladly work for $5/hour but are currently unemployed because it is illegal to pay them $5/hour, but it wouldn't be profitable to pay them $7/hour--may have fucking jobs.  Who really hates poor people?

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Not Quite Social said:

Let's return to the good old days before there was a minimum wage, back when Americans were paid in company scrips and if workers weren't satisfied with that, the national guard shot their children dead. 

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imachavel said:

yes you must have missed where I said that I don't live anywhere near a costco

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sonamdrukpa said:

imachavel said:

yes you must have missed where I said that I don't live anywhere near a costco

---

Nearly every gas station I've ever been to has sold hot dogs for $1-$2.  A 20lb bag of rice costs around $20-$30, and beans are similarly cheap - and that plus a bottle of hot sauce can feed you forever.  If you're looking for fruits & veggies, bananas generally run $1-$2 a pound, carrots are never more than a buck-fifty for a pound, a 5 lb. bag of apples can be had for under $5, oranges never cost more than 50 cents a piece, etc.  A loaf of even good bread won't cost more than $4, and if you buy a $4-$5 block of cheese or a $3-$4 jar of peanut butter that can feed you for several days.  A $5 bag of generic cereal will last you a week or two of breakfasts.  Pasta is ridiculously cheap, and you don't need anything more than a $1 can of pasta sauce to make it edible.  Eggs are almost never more than $2 a dozen.  If you're truly starving and making minimum wage, you can go on food stamps.  And, of course, the ever-present Ramen noodle can be had for dozens on the dollar, especially if you buy in cases.  There's no reason anyone has to starve in modern America if they're willing to either cook (you can get a frying pan for $5 at goodwill, and that's all you really need) or give up eating hot meals, and if you develop your guerilla cooking skilling you can even eat quite well.

---

Does anyone understand the concept of how an economy is a circulating trade between all people? Person a) opens a restaurant, person b) says to person a)

Do you find that your restaurant will be affordable to all people to bring in several clients?

person b) says, no, I just want customers like Bill Gates, after all, minimum wage doesn't provide the living conditions for people to eat affordably out, at all, even once a month

if you are so sure the economy can function very well on current minimum wage, then I suppose you don't find that the auto industry needs to succeed, or the high cost housing market, and for that matter why bail out companies who's stocks won't rise? Amazing peoples mentalities.

I personally, am a person who could care less if these companies succeed or get bailed out myself. But do you find them detrimental to an economies success? I myself have heard your opinion of what I should and shouldn't be able to afford to eat. What question of mine hasn't been answered, is if you believe capitalism can survive on just the upper class. How many cars have to be sold, how many houses have to be sold, to support an expanding market? Are you sure democracy is the right system of government for you?

The stock market would crash if cars weren't purchased and if houses weren't purchased, or do you find that the middle class will eventually be over 50% of the population? Btw, if you currently think it's way greater then 50% of the population, or even 50% of the population, you are greatly wrong. You are living under the assumption that amount of people who earn minimum wage in this country is under 50% of the people. You are wrong. I don't want to provide statistics and start a statistic war, because if I provide one link, you will tell me my link is invalid, I'll be providing links all die to people in P D just to find even when the evidence is in their face, they still deny the truth of things.

Despite what Zapp thinks, I couldn't care less if Wall Street crashed. I don't think the country depends on it, at all. Wall street is wealth management, stock broking companies do just that, they broker stocks. They buy stock of a large company, then gamble it on the market. The whole point of buying stocks from a company, is a fund raising campaign, they pay companies money for stock in their company, and to make it public. These companies are paid for the stock, and as the stock goes up in trade, and a companies value increases, the stock goes up, and the wealth management companies buy more of the stock.

Personally, it's only a capital venture program, but technically it is not so, because the capital isn't entirely intended for venture, it's stock trading, but I just see it as capital venture for really wealthy people. If you claim most people with minimum wage deserve even less then what they get, then I submit to you, do you really care about the auto industry or the high pricing housing market? I don't. I'm not like Zappa, I don't give a shit about wall street. And as you said, corporate companies like winn dixie, publix, albertsons, high priced grocery stores, make it hard to live on minimum wage, if they failed, I could easily shop at a store that replaces the now bank rupt store, which would probably be a smaller chain and more affordable. And I could buy $5 chickens like I could at costco, and live more easily and affordable.

If all this is true, I'll be happy to accept minimum wage, when stupid idiots keeping getting bail outs because most people can't afford their shit. Minimum wage does not = buying a brand new car, it does not = buying an expensive house. It equals eating on $10 a day. Oh btw if I can't afford a car, how the FUCK IN THE WORLD DO YOU EXPECT ME TO DRIVE TO COSTCO? I'VE SAID 18 FUCKING TIMES THAT I CAN'T DRIVE TO ONE CLOSE BY. So really, this is a loop. Now that I've decided I can't get to an affordable place by bus, and since you think all gas stations here all like 7-11s and sell hot dogs, which they aren't, and the 7-11 two blocks from me sells hot dog packs almost $3, what do you propose I do? Should republicans be allowed to eat their cake and have it too? This is a question I'd really like answered, and honestly the more and more you continue to provide to me ways of eating cheap, the more and more I should just quote myself, until you really answer my question, on how a balanced spending budget can be afforded.

A wise friend of mine who sold reggies weed once told me when I asked why he didn't sell chronic: "I'd rather sell $5 20 times then $20 once" This of course is strange considering I know chronic dealers that sell their $25ers and whole eighters for $50 all day. But I still understand the point he was trying to make

imachavel said:

yes you must have missed where I said that I don't live anywhere near a costco

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Gilgamesh18 said:

Nice strawman with the 5 bucks an hour deal people are not morons they are not being forced to work for this wage they find another job that pays better. In essence you would rather them be unemployed or on welfare as opposed to them working shocking.

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Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Socialist polices like minimum wage impoverise the worker and they actually don't benefit from it.

---

imachavel said:

sonamdrukpa said:

imachavel said:

yes you must have missed where I said that I don't live anywhere near a costco

---

Nearly every gas station I've ever been to has sold hot dogs for $1-$2.  A 20lb bag of rice costs around $20-$30, and beans are similarly cheap - and that plus a bottle of hot sauce can feed you forever.  If you're looking for fruits & veggies, bananas generally run $1-$2 a pound, carrots are never more than a buck-fifty for a pound, a 5 lb. bag of apples can be had for under $5, oranges never cost more than 50 cents a piece, etc.  A loaf of even good bread won't cost more than $4, and if you buy a $4-$5 block of cheese or a $3-$4 jar of peanut butter that can feed you for several days.  A $5 bag of generic cereal will last you a week or two of breakfasts.  Pasta is ridiculously cheap, and you don't need anything more than a $1 can of pasta sauce to make it edible.  Eggs are almost never more than $2 a dozen.  If you're truly starving and making minimum wage, you can go on food stamps.  And, of course, the ever-present Ramen noodle can be had for dozens on the dollar, especially if you buy in cases.  There's no reason anyone has to starve in modern America if they're willing to either cook (you can get a frying pan for $5 at goodwill, and that's all you really need) or give up eating hot meals, and if you develop your guerilla cooking skilling you can even eat quite well.

---

Does anyone understand the concept of how an economy is a circulating trade between all people? Person a) opens a restaurant, person b) says to person a)

Do you find that your restaurant will be affordable to all people to bring in several clients?

person b) says, no, I just want customers like Bill Gates, after all, minimum wage doesn't provide the living conditions for people to eat affordably out, at all, even once a month

if you are so sure the economy can function very well on current minimum wage, then I suppose you don't find that the auto industry needs to succeed, or the high cost housing market, and for that matter why bail out companies who's stocks won't rise? Amazing peoples mentalities.

I personally, am a person who could care less if these companies succeed or get bailed out myself. But do you find them detrimental to an economies success? I myself have heard your opinion of what I should and shouldn't be able to afford to eat. What question of mine hasn't been answered, is if you believe capitalism can survive on just the upper class. How many cars have to be sold, how many houses have to be sold, to support an expanding market? Are you sure democracy is the right system of government for you?

The stock market would crash if cars weren't purchased and if houses weren't purchased, or do you find that the middle class will eventually be over 50% of the population? Btw, if you currently think it's way greater then 50% of the population, or even 50% of the population, you are greatly wrong. You are living under the assumption that amount of people who earn minimum wage in this country is under 50% of the people. You are wrong. I don't want to provide statistics and start a statistic war, because if I provide one link, you will tell me my link is invalid, I'll be providing links all die to people in P D just to find even when the evidence is in their face, they still deny the truth of things.

Despite what Zapp thinks, I couldn't care less if Wall Street crashed. I don't think the country depends on it, at all. Wall street is wealth management, stock broking companies do just that, they broker stocks. They buy stock of a large company, then gamble it on the market. The whole point of buying stocks from a company, is a fund raising campaign, they pay companies money for stock in their company, and to make it public. These companies are paid for the stock, and as the stock goes up in trade, and a companies value increases, the stock goes up, and the wealth management companies buy more of the stock.

Personally, it's only a capital venture program, but technically it is not so, because the capital isn't entirely intended for venture, it's stock trading, but I just see it as capital venture for really wealthy people. If you claim most people with minimum wage deserve even less then what they get, then I submit to you, do you really care about the auto industry or the high pricing housing market? I don't. I'm not like Zappa, I don't give a shit about wall street. And as you said, corporate companies like winn dixie, publix, albertsons, high priced grocery stores, make it hard to live on minimum wage, if they failed, I could easily shop at a store that replaces the now bank rupt store, which would probably be a smaller chain and more affordable. And I could buy $5 chickens like I could at costco, and live more easily and affordable.

If all this is true, I'll be happy to accept minimum wage, when stupid idiots keeping getting bail outs because most people can't afford their shit. Minimum wage does not = buying a brand new car, it does not = buying an expensive house. It equals eating on $10 a day. Oh btw if I can't afford a car, how the FUCK IN THE WORLD DO YOU EXPECT ME TO DRIVE TO COSTCO? I'VE SAID 18 FUCKING TIMES THAT I CAN'T DRIVE TO ONE CLOSE BY. So really, this is a loop. Now that I've decided I can't get to an affordable place by bus, and since you think all gas stations here all like 7-11s and sell hot dogs, which they aren't, and the 7-11 two blocks from me sells hot dog packs almost $3, what do you propose I do? Should republicans be allowed to eat their cake and have it too? This is a question I'd really like answered, and honestly the more and more you continue to provide to me ways of eating cheap, the more and more I should just quote myself, until you really answer my question, on how a balanced spending budget can be afforded.

A wise friend of mine who sold reggies weed once told me when I asked why he didn't sell chronic: "I'd rather sell $5 20 times then $20 once" This of course is strange considering I know chronic dealers that sell their $25ers and whole eighters for $50 all day. But I still understand the point he was trying to make

---

imachavel said:

Does anyone understand the concept of how an economy is a circulating trade between all people? Person a) opens a restaurant, person b) says to person a)

Do you find that your restaurant will be affordable to all people to bring in several clients?

person b) says, no, I just want customers like Bill Gates, after all, minimum wage doesn't provide the living conditions for people to eat affordably out, at all, even once a month

---

Quote:

if you are so sure the economy can function very well on current minimum wage, then I suppose you don't find that the auto industry needs to succeed, or the high cost housing market, and for that matter why bail out companies who's stocks won't rise? Amazing peoples mentalities.I personally, am a person who could care less if these companies succeed or get bailed out myself. But do you find them detrimental to an economies success?

---

Quote:

I myself have heard your opinion of what I should and shouldn't be able to afford to eat.

---

Quote:

What question of mine hasn't been answered, is if you believe capitalism can survive on just the upper class.

---

Quote:

How many cars have to be sold, how many houses have to be sold, to support an expanding market?

---

Quote:

Are you sure democracy is the right system of government for you?

---

Quote:

The stock market would crash if cars weren't purchased and if houses weren't purchased, or do you find that the middle class will eventually be over 50% of the population? Btw, if you currently think it's way greater then 50% of the population, or even 50% of the population, you are greatly wrong. You are living under the assumption that amount of people who earn minimum wage in this country is under 50% of the people. You are wrong. I don't want to provide statistics and start a statistic war, because if I provide one link, you will tell me my link is invalid, I'll be providing links all die to people in P D just to find even when the evidence is in their face, they still deny the truth of things.

---

Quote:

Despite what Zapp thinks, I couldn't care less if Wall Street crashed. I don't think the country depends on it, at all. Wall street is wealth management, stock broking companies do just that, they broker stocks. They buy stock of a large company, then gamble it on the market. The whole point of buying stocks from a company, is a fund raising campaign, they pay companies money for stock in their company, and to make it public. These companies are paid for the stock, and as the stock goes up in trade, and a companies value increases, the stock goes up, and the wealth management companies buy more of the stock.

---

Quote:

Personally, it's only a capital venture program, but technically it is not so, because the capital isn't entirely intended for venture, it's stock trading, but I just see it as capital venture for really wealthy people.

---

Quote:

If you claim most people with minimum wage deserve even less then what they get, then I submit to you, do you really care about the auto industry or the high pricing housing market? I don't.

---

Quote:

I'm not like Zappa, I don't give a shit about wall street.

---

Quote:

And as you said, corporate companies like winn dixie, publix, albertsons, high priced grocery stores, make it hard to live on minimum wage, if they failed, I could easily shop at a store that replaces the now bank rupt store, which would probably be a smaller chain and more affordable. And I could buy $5 chickens like I could at costco, and live more easily and affordable.

---

Quote:

If all this is true, I'll be happy to accept minimum wage, when stupid idiots keeping getting bail outs because most people can't afford their shit.

---

Quote:

Minimum wage does not = buying a brand new car, it does not = buying an expensive house. It equals eating on $10 a day. Oh btw if I can't afford a car, how the FUCK IN THE WORLD DO YOU EXPECT ME TO DRIVE TO COSTCO? I'VE SAID 18 FUCKING TIMES THAT I CAN'T DRIVE TO ONE CLOSE BY.

---

Quote:

So really, this is a loop. Now that I've decided I can't get to an affordable place by bus, and since you think all gas stations here all like 7-11s and sell hot dogs, which they aren't, and the 7-11 two blocks from me sells hot dog packs almost $3, what do you propose I do?

---

Quote:

Should republicans be allowed to eat their cake and have it too? This is a question I'd really like answered, and honestly the more and more you continue to provide to me ways of eating cheap, the more and more I should just quote myself, until you really answer my question, on how a balanced spending budget can be afforded.

---

Quote:

A wise friend of mine who sold reggies weed once told me when I asked why he didn't sell chronic: "I'd rather sell $5 20 times then $20 once" This of course is strange considering I know chronic dealers that sell their $25ers and whole eighters for $50 all day. But I still understand the point he was trying to make

---

ChuangTzu said:

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Socialist polices like minimum wage impoverise the worker and they actually don't benefit from it.

---

Minimum wage forces people who could otherwise only earn $5/h to instead earn $0/h.

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sonamdrukpa said:

It's not true that the only effect of minimum wage is to destroy jobs where the value of the work produced is less than minimum wage.  There's some evidence that minimum wage increases reduce unemployment in many situations.  I think the basic idea behind these things is that increasing the funds available to the poorest workers increases demand, thereby stimulating growth.  Instead of thinking of minimum wage as destroying napkin-counting jobs or similar occupations, you can think of it as a way for parents to be able to afford childcare for their children, etc.

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Quote:

Most studies have found that the entire net effect of an increase in minimum wage results in a slight decrease in employment. A 10 percent increase would most likely lead to only a 1 percent reduction in employment. The more pressing issue is the matter of a livable wage. Even the state with the highest minimum wage does not meet the criteria for a livable wage. Over 24 cities throughout the United States have enacted a livable wage requirement, in order that people are able to meet their basic needs, such as food, shelter, heat, and clothing. This requirement has resulted in a minor cost increase for employers and a 2.2 percent decrease in employment.

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ChuangTzu said:

There is simply no way that anyone whose work is only worth $5/h will be paid $7/h just because the employer has more money (due to more minimum wage earners presumably purchasing their goods as the theory posits).  The employer will either keep the extra profit, or hire more people whose labor is actually worth $7/h.  The only universe where hiring someone whose work is worth $5/h and paying them $7/h is rational is one in which someone else is subsidizing their wage by $2/h.

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Quote:

Card and Krueger's meta-analysis of the employment effects of minimum wages challenged existing theory. Unfortunately, their meta-analysis confused publication selection with the absence of a genuine empirical effect. We apply recently developed meta-analysis methods to 64 US minimum-wage studies and corroborate that Card and Krueger's findings were nevertheless correct. The minimum-wage effects literature is contaminated by publication selection bias, which we estimate to be slightly larger than the average reported minimum-wage effect. Once this publication selection is corrected, little or no evidence of a negative association between minimum wages and employment remains.

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Quote:

[from the conclusion]After analyzing BNW’s data, our original survey data, publicly available BLS data, and most importantly, the BLS ES-202 fast-food establishment data, we reach the following conclusion: The increase in New Jersey’s minimum wage probably had no effect on total employment in New Jersey’s fast-food industry, and possibly had a small positive effect.

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Quote:

This paper uses efficiency wage theory and the existence of community-based sharing to hypothesize that labor markets in developing countries have multiple equilibria—the same economy can be stuck at different levels of unemployment with different levels of wages. The model is meant for developing economies where wage-productivity links are discernible and income-sharing among the poor is prevalent. It seems reasonable to posit that in such an economy more unemployment leads to more income sharing. The main results are generated combining this claim with a theoretical demonstration of the fact that more sharing increases unemployment rates. As corollaries, we show that (1) within the same society, two different racial groups that may be ex ante identical can have different levels of unemployment and wages in equilibrium and (2) the imposition of a legal minimum wage can raise employment.

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ChuangTzu said:

Gilgamesh18 said:

Nice strawman with the 5 bucks an hour deal people are not morons they are not being forced to work for this wage they find another job that pays better. In essence you would rather them be unemployed or on welfare as opposed to them working shocking.

---

What are you talking about?  You seem to have interpreted what I wrote as exactly opposite of what I intended.  My statement agrees with the statement I quoted:

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Socialist polices like minimum wage impoverise the worker and they actually don't benefit from it.

---

Minimum wage forces people who could otherwise only earn $5/h to instead earn $0/h.

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my lord, have I told you you are so generous?

I will never side with William Wallace!

sonamdrukpa said:

Why shouldn't person a) try to maximize profits?

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they'd maximize from profits better if they don't try to cater to just one rich person, did you read what I said?

Quote:

Where in the world did you get the notion that a high minimum wage is one of the primary characteristics of a society with a democratic government?

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Quote:

Define "middle class" however you want.

  In 2011, 5.2% of workers in the U.S. made minimum wage or less.  I can only imagine how you're going to refute that data without providing any links.

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you want me to refute that? Do you have any more links with studies WRITTEN BY THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION?

you expect me to believe that less then 10% of people live on minimum wage? I'm definitely not going to even attempt to argue this garbage

Quote:

Oh really, that recession that started in 2008 had nothing to do with the stock market. :rollseyes:

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Quote:

So as long as the government keeps bailing out the AIG's and GM's of the world, you're okay taking less than minimum wage?  Or do you mean that you'll voluntarily take a cut in pay the minute the government stops trying to prevent economic calamity?

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Quote:

You live close to a gas station or convenience store, no?  If so, then go buy some Ramen, some peanut butter, and a loaf of bread.  That was the point of that list of cheap foods I made - in America, there's always a cheap place for food.  I live in a city, and I can think of at least 6 places off the top within a mile that I could buy all three of those things for less than $6.

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Quote:

Eat a hot dog for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and you'll spend less than $9.  Sounds doable to me.

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so do it, and enjoy it. And after you've done it, don't tell me what it's fucking like. Keep it to yourself

sonamdrukpa said:

ChuangTzu said:

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Socialist polices like minimum wage impoverise the worker and they actually don't benefit from it.

---

Minimum wage forces people who could otherwise only earn $5/h to instead earn $0/h.

---

It's not true that the only effect of minimum wage is to destroy jobs where the value of the work produced is less than minimum wage.  There's some evidence that minimum wage increases reduce unemployment in many situations.  I think the basic idea behind these things is that increasing the funds available to the poorest workers increases demand, thereby stimulating growth.  Instead of thinking of minimum wage as destroying napkin-counting jobs or similar occupations, you can think of it as a way for parents to be able to afford childcare for their children, etc.

---

this sure sounds very different from the last  perspective you provided

I'm confused

ChuangTzu said:

Gilgamesh18 said:

Nice strawman with the 5 bucks an hour deal people are not morons they are not being forced to work for this wage they find another job that pays better. In essence you would rather them be unemployed or on welfare as opposed to them working shocking.

---

What are you talking about?  You seem to have interpreted what I wrote as exactly opposite of what I intended.  My statement agrees with the statement I quoted:

Quote:

Gilgamesh18 said:
Socialist polices like minimum wage impoverise the worker and they actually don't benefit from it.

---

Minimum wage forces people who could otherwise only earn $5/h to instead earn $0/h.

---

DieCommie said:

If you are on minimum wage you need to be thinking about hitting up the soup kitchens, not burger king....  Not the tastiest but you sure wont starve.

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Enlil said:

You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the word "minimum"...if you're making minimum wage, you should be living minimally...

Living minimally means surviving...not living comfortably

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zappaisgod said:

Not Quite Social said:

They should able to afford a house, utilities, groceries, healthy food, healthcare, a decent education, and vacation; and they ought not to have to work more than 40 hours per week to afford these things so they can raise children and have leisure.

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A supermarket cart pusher should be able to have these things?  How many children should they have as a supermarket cart pusher?  Should they be able to afford a case of beer a week, as well?  Anything else you would like to add to the list?

What a fucking joke.

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sonamdrukpa said:

You live close to a gas station or convenience store, no?  If so, then go buy some Ramen, some peanut butter, and a loaf of bread.

Eat a hot dog for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and you'll spend less than $9.  Sounds doable to me.

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Edit:  adding this quote from down below.

Suess said:

This conservative would like to see an end to minimum wage, allowing free market supply and demand to dictate wages and benefits

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And there you have it imachavel.  This is how conservative Ameirica wants people to live.  They don't want to restore taxes to levels that pay the bills.  They'd rather everyone (except the top 2%) take a cut in pay and benefits.