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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Seuss]
    #16702823 -

Seuss said:
This conservative would rather see everybody, including the bottom 50% that pay ZERO federal income taxes, actually pay an equal percentage of taxes. 


You really want to see a completely flat tax?


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Enlil]
    #16702909 -

I do.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16702928 -

That would result in an increase in tax for almost everyone in america..It would also mean a significant reduction in consumer spending.


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Enlil]
    #16703010 -

It would result in a tax increase for those who wind up paying no Federal taxes.

It would result in Congress being unable to write tax laws that benefit the few.

Flat tax for all.

Equal treatment for all, not special treatment for some.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16703305 -

Flat tax isn't exactly fair, imo...

A person making 35k a year is pretty much using all of it to live.  They don't have a lot of extra income...to tax that person higher will only make them have less, if any...It will result in less spending, more foreclosures, lower property values...I don't see how it helps at all..

On the other hand, someone who makes 700k a year and spends $300k of that to live...they can afford to take a bigger hit without it significantly affecting them...

The end result would be that the rich would stay richer and everyone else would get much poorer.  I don't see that as being beneficial to the economy at all.


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Enlil]
    #16703372 -

A flat tax... is the only fair tax.

Everyone who works should be contributing to the country.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16703386 -

I agree with your second statement, but not with your first. 

A true flat tax would destroy our economy and result in much higher taxes and unemployment.


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Enlil]
    #16703456 -

Rather than take this thread off into the weeds, let's take arguments pro and con a Flat Tax or Fair Tax system to a different thread. Go here to continue the tax discussion, please.


Phred


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16705123 -

sonamdrukpa said:
Quote:
I'm not like Zappa, I don't give a shit about wall street.


I don't imagine Zappa gives a crap either.




You would be quite mistaken for a whole host of reasons.


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Enlil]
    #16706193 -

Enlil said:
Flat tax isn't exactly fair, imo...

A person making 35k a year is pretty much using all of it to live.  They don't have a lot of extra income...to tax that person higher will only make them have less, if any...It will result in less spending, more foreclosures, lower property values...I don't see how it helps at all..

On the other hand, someone who makes 700k a year and spends $300k of that to live...they can afford to take a bigger hit without it significantly affecting them...

The end result would be that the rich would stay richer and everyone else would get much poorer.  I don't see that as being beneficial to the economy at all.


:whathesaid:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Seuss]
    #16707349 -

Seuss said:
Quote:
And there you have it imachavel.  This is how conservative Ameirica wants people to live.  They don't want to restore taxes to levels that pay the bills.  They'd rather everyone (except the top 2%) take a cut in pay and benefits.  :shrug:



This conservative would rather see everybody, including the bottom 50% that pay ZERO federal income taxes, actually pay an equal percentage of taxes.  If somebody making a million dollars a year loses 95% of their pay to taxes, then somebody making 500 dollars a year should lose 95% of their pay to taxes.  This conservative would like to see the tax code simplified and the loopholes removed.  This conservative would like to see an end to minimum wage, allowing free market supply and demand to dictate wages and benefits while leaving labor laws in place to protect workers from exploitation.  This conservative would like to see the end of corporate welfare (via subsidies and tariffs).  Finally, this conservative would like to see "personhood" rights removed from corporations.

It is extremely shallow to try and shoehorn all conservatives in America into the same mold.  I could use you as an example of how all liberals in America lie and misrepresent to sway the uninformed, but I realize that not all liberals resort to such dubious tactics.


OMG, how perfect is this?!?!?  You call me a liar, while at the same time proving my point correct:

"This conservative would like to see an end to minimum wage, allowing free market supply and demand to dictate wages and benefits"

I'm adding this one to the other gems above.  :thumbup:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16707719 -

Seuss is sincere.  I like that about him.  Seuss is wrong about minimum wage because he is so emotionally invested in the value of the principle of freedom.  I respect that.  Most of my values are also very traditional.  I also value freedom.  The free market seems like a good thing because people freely interact with each other using rational self-interest, and they are free of coercion in principle--and all that is morally fine.  The problem with the free market is that it is not so simple a dynamic: people are not uniformly good actors within a free market; they are naturally motivated by greed to defraud others, to exploit others based on naturally occurring power differentials such as intelligence, education, social aptitude, cultural disadvantages/status, threats of violence, etc.; the other problem is the nature of money--individual rational and moral decisions about how to use money causes unintended and unfair societal inequities simply because of the inherent mathematical and amoral nature of money.  So, you have this simple principle of the free market, that seems like a force for good, masking human immorality and mathematical amorality.  People are seemingly wired to believe the simpler thing is the truer thing, but this is a wrongheaded faith.  Also, evil people (unlike Seuss) know full well that the unfair system that's in effect can or does work in their favor because for one reason or another, as I listed, they have an advantage they can leverage to exploit others to their great benefit; so, they actively promote the happy face, the mask, of capitalism, the "free" market.

Similarly, Seuss is wrong about the flat tax.  It seems perfectly fair, just, and equal to apply the same percentage to everyone.  But the simplicity of the idea of a flat tax is belied by the reality Enlil described: because math is amoral, money is accrued amorally, but society creates money and seeks to leverage it towards moral ends.  By its nature, money tends to wrongly accumulate in fewer and fewer hands--that's why we have laws against monopolies, for example; and why we should have progressive taxes.  It is morally wrong to simply let money consolidate as an amoral function of math--that actually hurts people.  So, to make things better, more right, we should consider, as Enlil did, how amounts of money actually affect people in the real world, then use the idea of redistributing wealth on the basis of reclaiming an equally detrimental proportion of wealth from each person-/think about that.  It isn't simple.  But, again, the simple idea, the free market, the flat tax, may be the the more compelling idea on a gut level, but both have serious moral flaws just behind their masks of freedom and fairness.


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16711134 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
DieCommie said:
If you are on minimum wage you need to be thinking about hitting up the soup kitchens, not burger king....  Not the tastiest but you sure wont starve.


Enlil said:
You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the word "minimum"...if you're making minimum wage, you should be living minimally...

Living minimally means surviving...not living comfortably


zappaisgod said:
Not Quite Social said:
They should able to afford a house, utilities, groceries, healthy food, healthcare, a decent education, and vacation; and they ought not to have to work more than 40 hours per week to afford these things so they can raise children and have leisure.


A supermarket cart pusher should be able to have these things?  How many children should they have as a supermarket cart pusher?  Should they be able to afford a case of beer a week, as well?  Anything else you would like to add to the list?

What a fucking joke.


sonamdrukpa said:
You live close to a gas station or convenience store, no?  If so, then go buy some Ramen, some peanut butter, and a loaf of bread.

Eat a hot dog for breakfast, lunch and dinner, and you'll spend less than $9.  Sounds doable to me.


Edit:  adding this quote from down below.
Suess said:
This conservative would like to see an end to minimum wage, allowing free market supply and demand to dictate wages and benefits


And there you have it imachavel.  This is how conservative Ameirica wants people to live.  They don't want to restore taxes to levels that pay the bills.  They'd rather everyone (except the top 2%) take a cut in pay and benefits.  :shrug:


indeed. Hey I hear you can vote early in some states? Is there another way to vote early besides online?


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Not Quite Social] * 1
    #16711232 -

Not Quite Social said:
the other problem is the nature of money--individual rational and moral decisions about how to use money causes unintended and unfair societal inequities simply because of the inherent mathematical and amoral nature of money.


Can you elaborate on this?

Quote:
So, you have this simple principle of the free market, that seems like a force for good, masking human immorality and mathematical amorality.


What exactly is mathematical amorality?

Quote:
because math is amoral, money is accrued amorally


Math doesn't accrue money--people accrue it through actions that they choose to perform.

Quote:
By its nature, money tends to wrongly accumulate in fewer and fewer hands--that's why we have laws against monopolies, for example;


No, we have laws against monopolies for the exact opposite reason.

Quote:
It is morally wrong to simply let money consolidate as an amoral function of math--that actually hurts people. 


Math is an abstract concept, it isn't an actor.  It's not even a force like gravity, nor even an emotional driving force like love or fear or something, can you please explain what the hell you're talking about? 

Quote:
So, to make things better, more right, we should consider, as Enlil did, how amounts of money actually affect people in the real world, then use the idea of redistributing wealth on the basis of reclaiming an equally detrimental proportion of wealth from each person-/think about that.


No, we shouldn't.  That would be immoral.

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: imachavel]
    #16712112 -

imachavel said:
Hey I hear you can vote early in some states? Is there another way to vote early besides online?


I didn't know any states allowed online voting!?!  I'd take advantage of it if it's available.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16714673 -

I said:

the other problem is the nature of money--individual rational and moral decisions about how to use money causes unintended and unfair societal inequities simply because of the inherent mathematical and amoral nature of money.

---

You (Chaung) replied:

Can you elaborate on this?

---

Yes, happy to.  Here's an example to illustrate my point.

Two hundred million people suffer from a disease that causes bad breath.  On the basis of numbers, the potential for all these people to spend money, a drug company, Payrex, develops, manufactures, markets and sells a cure.  Two thousand people suffer from a disease that causes them to gradually lose weight and die.  Payrex decided it could make a lot more money helping a lot of people have nice breath rather than a much smaller pool of people survive a deadly disease.  The decision to help the two hundred million rather than the two thousand was based on economic incentive, income potential, not on a moral choice--there was no inherent incentive for Payrex to make the moral choice.  The two hundred million people who gave money to Payrex were not consciously deciding their bad breath was more important than two thousand people's lives.  Had the numbers been reversed and two hundred million people were wasting away towards their demise versus two thousand cases of halitosis, the inherent economic  incentive would be to make the moral choice.  So, when people talk about the "free market" this is the amoral nature of the system in which they place their faith and confidence.  Sure people are free to act amorally.  But I don't accept their delusions or lies about it.  I don't accept the simplistic idea of a "free market" as a force for good simply representing people's free choices.


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16714723 -

That sounds like a moral judgement of the two hundred million who are spending their money on breath medicine rather than their fellow man.  And you are implying we should not have the right to choose if we care more about our own breath vs one hundred thousandth of a cure for somebody?  Looks like you just want people to have the same morals as you rather than being moral in general.  Nothing there is unintended, its just not what you like.

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16714740 -

In a world of limited resources, we simply are not going to be able to solve every problem.  We can't cure every disease, and we can't give everyone a 2 bedroom house.

I would say that prioritizing the 200 million over the 2000 is the only rational decision.


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Enlil]
    #16715677 -

Quote:
Enlil said,I would say that prioritizing the 200 million over the 2000 is the only rational decision.


That's an interesting notion, Enlil.  I wonder why you think that.  If the two hundred million people were desperately poor Chinese who couldn't afford a relatively cheap treatment and the two thousand were super rich Americans, then Payrex might prioritize the much smaller group based on who can pay, not based on morality.  So, I suppose that seems rational to you (I'm not sure why), but do you think it is moral?


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16716962 -

As DieCommie said, that is a judgement of the people spending money on their own breath rather contributing to treat someone else's disease much more than it is a judgement again the actions of the drug company.  It is not immoral for the drug company to choose to serve their customers. 

The great thing about the free market is that if society in general wants to treat the 200 million diseased people, they are free to do so.  You are free to convince people using reason and persuasion to contribute to any cause you want.  If somebody still does not wish to contribute to your cause, you aren't free to forcibly take their money anyway for your purposes. 

If you really care about the n million people suffering from ____ disease, you will get out in the streets and talk to people, go door to door, start an organization, put ads on billboards, etc. to convince people to voluntarily give money to your cause.  So many people just take the easy way out and say a law should be passed making it so.  It's sick.

Edited by ChuangTzu (08/18/12 10:53 AM)

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