Not Quite Social said:

Really?  How then is your extravagant delusion sustained?  How do monkeys commonly fly around the world in airplanes?  What is this floating, man-made city of pleasure seekers called a cruise ship?  How do monkeys eat locally out-of-season fruit, or mid-continent monkeys eat seafood? How do monkeys live in buildings over 1000 ft above the ground?  I can go on and on.  How do these real things comport with your delusions of scarcity and unsustainability?

---

Not Quite Social said:

Really?  How then is your extravagant delusion sustained?  How do monkeys commonly fly around the world in airplanes?  What is this floating, man-made city of pleasure seekers called a cruise ship?  How do monkeys eat locally out-of-season fruit, or mid-continent monkeys eat seafood? How do monkeys live in buildings over 1000 ft above the ground?  I can go on and on.  How do these real things comport with your delusions of scarcity and unsustainability?

---

Not Quite Social said:

There is no reason to desire poverty and hardship for others--there's only dumb animal appreciation and acceptance of hierarchy.  There's no reason people who work at jobs that employers want done--food served, bedpans emptied, shelves stocked, bathrooms mopped, children supervised, etc.--there's no reason for people doing honest work, 40 hours per week, to get so little pay they and their families suffer.  There's no reason they shouldn't be paid wages that meet their needs and provide for their comfort and happiness.  They should able to afford a house, utilities, groceries, healthy food, healthcare, a decent education, and vacation; and they ought not to have to work more than 40 hours per week to afford these things so they can raise children and have leisure.  That should be the minimum wage.  No reason it should be less, dumb fucking sadist status quo supporters aside.

---

Seuss said:

> So ... tell me if I understand you correctly ... u

You don't understand me correctly.  There was a nifty little innovation called labor laws that protect employees from the exploitation you describe.

---

imachavel said:

zappaisgod said:

It has nothing to do with being a dedicated anything.  If you are making minimum wage in your thirties you are by definition a retard.  I might add a "fucking" to the "retard".  If you are still making minimum wage after 20 years you clearly should have done something else.  Does this even exist or are you pulling a fictional downsie out of your ass to make a stupid point?

---

no it doesn't even exist. We're all waiting for fucking Wall Street idiots to get their houses re modeled so we can bid a little extra on our contracts

---

Not Quite Social said:

There is no reason to desire poverty and hardship for others--there's only dumb animal appreciation and acceptance of hierarchy.  There's no reason people who work at jobs that employers want done--food served, bedpans emptied, shelves stocked, bathrooms mopped, children supervised, etc.--there's no reason for people doing honest work, 40 hours per week, to get so little pay they and their families suffer.  There's no reason they shouldn't be paid wages that meet their needs and provide for their comfort and happiness.  They should able to afford a house, utilities, groceries, healthy food, healthcare, a decent education, and vacation; and they ought not to have to work more than 40 hours per week to afford these things so they can raise children and have leisure.  That should be the minimum wage.  No reason it should be less, dumb fucking sadist status quo supporters aside.

---

zappaisgod said:

There is no such thing as a Wall Street idiot

---

Enlil said:

zappaisgod said:

There is no such thing as a Wall Street idiot

---

You clearly have not met many people who work on wall street...many are idiots...

Sometimes I wonder how they made so much money, and then I realized that it's like any game of chance...even a broken clock is right twice a day.

---

Enlil said:

imachavel said:

Man, I see what it is with you. You just don't like losing, you'll just keep dragging this on and on just because you are right. NEWS FLASH, A TURKEY IS EXPENSIVE. With $20, do you think that you can buy a turkey, and have a lot of money left to prepare the turkey very well?

Anyway, you are just arguing now to not let go of something. You must have me confused with an over consumer. Go pray to your precious government that subsidizes farms uselessly. Since you want to speak of waste, what do you think of that? Subsidizing a farm, that would grow food, for people to eat. Something much more important then the wasteful spending someone would spend on a house by buying it for $500,000. Do you find the necessary? Mr. "you can prepare a thanks giving turkey for under $20 with the vegetables and the stuffing and all"??

Do you find buying un necessary things like jewelry, a very expensive convertible car, first class plane tickets, as waste ful as eating what you claim is "whatever you want"? You talk about me spending $30 a day on food as though it's necessary for the benefit of society

Do you find other things more waste ful then buying expensive food? Does buying expensive food pollute the environment? Let's bring that up, what if I don't want to drive a car, or take a bus, because it pollutes the environment. But where I work is too far to bike to every day. Should I just lay down and not care about the conditions I live in? You claim creating your own future and not expecting society to just give you something is a much faster way of earning what you truly deserve. How the fuck is how much I spend on food waste ful?

What are you babbling about for? Is this going to turn into a convo about welfare, food stamps, waste ful spending that somehow raises the deficit because I don't live next to a costco and cook expensively? man those meals totaling over $20 a day really fucking add up

waste social spending if I've ever seen it cause of the deficit......... somehow

---

You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the word "minimum"...if you're making minimum wage, you should be living minimally...

Living minimally means surviving...not living comfortably...not having a spare room and a diet of whatever you deem optimal...It means having shelter from the weather, and enough nutrition to survive...If you want to live better than that, you'll have to get a job that pays more...

---

gee, I thought minimum wage was to ensure that employees got paid a certain amount for their work, instead of the corporation just paying them whatever they want, which could be $1.25 an hour. I thought it was in compliance with labor laws, and that because of it, no corporation should ever have to pay you a cent more.

I didn't realize it was some social distinction, that involved that you were required to have the minimum, as some sort of punishment for not working hard enough, or not getting an education, as though society was putting you in a place, where you have to work hard just to have a loaf of bread. Your idea of minimum wage is sounding less like labor laws, and more like a movie about orphanages. "please sir, may I have another" "laddie, come get your whupping for asking!" "please sir, may I have another"

Jesus Christ, aren't you a lawyer? I didn't know laws in a democracy about the MINIMUM one would get paid had to do with some sort of social standard, I thought it had to do with labor protection laws.

Zappa, what do you think, may I have another bowl or porridge, or should I get my hands whupped by Obama for asking. You know enlil, you should understand how many people hate working, and go on welfare to avoid getting a shit job that pays low. It's not a great consolation, but the higher the minimum wage, the more qualified a person needs to be to get and keep a job. Zap seems to have this idea that if you end up working for a place for 10 years, and are still making minimum wage, that you are a moron. Do you guys like in Grenich Connecticut or what? Have you really cooked food for yourself every day, or did you just straight go to school, have a fancy trust fund, then pass the bar and start lawyering and start making a salary?

You people act as though no person who makes minimum wage ever had any reason to be on minimum wage, other then stupidity. If it wasn't for government loans, some people wouldn't be able to afford college. They'd HAVE to take whatever job they can get. Zapp swears that if you work your ass off for 15 years, you are guaranteed a HUGE RAISE at a GREAT company. Which is bull shit, a few dollars more, maybe, but there's no guarantee anyone will treat you well.

Then statements such as "the more you think society owes you something, the less you get, the less you work for yourself, and get what you deserve that people owe you"

Well to me it's not a question about what society owes someone, it's a question of, "why work for someone that doesn't appreciate me, I'm going to work my ass off for so and so and so and then hear someone tell me I can't eat on any more then $10 a day?"

Jeez, that makes sense. No wonder people live on welfare. No wonder people don't do shit. I'll tell you, I'd never work for a guy, for one day, for one fucking minute, if he expected me, to get off work and eat on $10. I work my ass off, I'm tired, your damn right I'm going to go buy a beer and a burger at Wendy's, I fucking earned. I'll be homeless before I live by your standards. I really will. And I'm sure you couldn't care less. But honestly I couldn't fucking care less about you or your sanctimonious shit that you speak of while earning a lawyers salary.

And besides, some people don't like school, some people aren't good at school. They go to college and start taking classes that have to do with math and language and science and things they already did in high school, and the theory makes no sense to them. Then there are people who think just that "how does theory give me experience." It's as if I said "passing the bar exam makes you a good lawyer" You'd be like, really? You'd say "being a good lawyer takes years and years and years of experience, practice, understanding in the field, the bar is just theory, it's just a fucking test, how does that get you a job, it only promotes what you already know"

And that's just what college is. College is a place to go and study and learn theory, which promotes you. It's not a place to get experience. People these days, act as though college is a place where you go, and leave, and someone owes you 80k a year right off the bat. An education is supposed to market experience you already have. Some people don't think school is for them. But they are very dedicated people who want to work hard and have owner ship of themselves and freedom. Enlil is bitching at a person who works their ass off and expects to be able to eat $20 of food a day. What about lazy fucks who stand in front of BK, they are bums, and ask for money, and use the money to go buy burgers and smoke crack. They usually live on more then $20 a day. A person who works all day can't have that? Do you think a world that your kids grow up in, where hard work isn't rewarded, but just "owner ship" is rewarded, teaches good morals?

Why that sounds down right materialistic. I'll tell you, not for one second do I ever want to have kids again. This fucking world is pathetic, it makes me sick. That materialism is rewarded, but hard work isn't. I find it sickening. Then Zappa says "if a woman can't get a better then minimum wage job, she shouldn't even have one kid"

I find that hard to understand, there are women who have kids who love the shit out of their kids, and work weekend jobs and shit and love the kid and spoil the kid and buy him shit he doesn't need, pay his health insurance, pay the bills, drive him to school every day. Do you think that's wrong? Don't you have a mother? Don't you love her and wish for better living conditions? When my mother was a kid, she grew up in a house with two brothers and two sisters. The mother stayed at home and cooked, and my grandfather worked a job at a lumber mill, and then a week end job as a sheriff. He'd go work 60 hours a week, come back, spoil the kids. My grand ma cooked every night, he sent each kid to college, they had three cars.

Sure, he started at minimum wage, but got raises every year. You don't get a fucking raise every year working at burger king. And you know what he said when he got home? "I don't know what everyone talks about, that I work so hard, while I'm at work mom stays here taking care of the kids, her job is MUCH harder then mine"

That is fucking dedication. Not going and making 60k a year and taking four hour lunches on a lawyers salary, but working hard, and teaching your kids that hard work should be rewarded, and not to ever be lazy.

This thread makes me fucking sick Honestly......

Don't forget, if you believe in god. Don't forget what god says "I judge your actions, but more so, I judge your motives." They say people see your actions, but god always sees your motives. You can't hide that. I mean god is my fucking witness, do you actually like democracy enlil?

Not Quite Social said:

There is no reason to desire poverty and hardship for others--there's only dumb animal appreciation and acceptance of hierarchy.  There's no reason people who work at jobs that employers want done--food served, bedpans emptied, shelves stocked, bathrooms mopped, children supervised, etc.--there's no reason for people doing honest work, 40 hours per week, to get so little pay they and their families suffer.  There's no reason they shouldn't be paid wages that meet their needs and provide for their comfort and happiness.  They should able to afford a house, utilities, groceries, healthy food, healthcare, a decent education, and vacation; and they ought not to have to work more than 40 hours per week to afford these things so they can raise children and have leisure.  That should be the minimum wage.  No reason it should be less, dumb fucking sadist status quo supporters aside.

---

bingo

DieCommie said:

Suffer?  Is living in an apartment suffering now? 

Your expectations are simply too high to be sustainable. 

---

zappaisgod said:

I see someone's business is not going well.

---

Gilgamesh18 said:

Not Quite Social said:

Really?  How then is your extravagant delusion sustained?  How do monkeys commonly fly around the world in airplanes?  What is this floating, man-made city of pleasure seekers called a cruise ship?  How do monkeys eat locally out-of-season fruit, or mid-continent monkeys eat seafood? How do monkeys live in buildings over 1000 ft above the ground?  I can go on and on.  How do these real things comport with your delusions of scarcity and unsustainability?

---

All of those things you mentioned are the result of capitalism and the free market being allowed to function correctly. If you marxists had your way we would all be living in mud huts scrounging in the woods for food while a few elite party members determine how all resources are distributed. This has been said many times but I will say it again the free market is the best way to eliminate poverty and inequality no other system on earth has as much social mobility as capitalist nations. Mandating equality by governmental force lowers the standard of living for all and penalizes the best and brightest.

---

zappaisgod said:

imachavel said:

zappaisgod said:

It has nothing to do with being a dedicated anything.  If you are making minimum wage in your thirties you are by definition a retard.  I might add a "fucking" to the "retard".  If you are still making minimum wage after 20 years you clearly should have done something else.  Does this even exist or are you pulling a fictional downsie out of your ass to make a stupid point?

---

no it doesn't even exist. We're all waiting for fucking Wall Street idiots to get their houses re modeled so we can bid a little extra on our contracts

---

There is no such thing as a Wall Street idiot

---

oh boy. Sorry mr. Gordon Gekko, I forgot was street never makes mistakes

not even a $700,000,000,000 one. none of that was Lehman Brothers fault, or AIG's fault. No bad decisions are made by executives. Those people are gold, what was I thinking

imachavel said:

zappaisgod said:

imachavel said:

zappaisgod said:

It has nothing to do with being a dedicated anything.  If you are making minimum wage in your thirties you are by definition a retard.  I might add a "fucking" to the "retard".  If you are still making minimum wage after 20 years you clearly should have done something else.  Does this even exist or are you pulling a fictional downsie out of your ass to make a stupid point?

---

no it doesn't even exist. We're all waiting for fucking Wall Street idiots to get their houses re modeled so we can bid a little extra on our contracts

---

There is no such thing as a Wall Street idiot

---

oh boy. Sorry mr. Gordon Gekko, I forgot was street never makes mistakes

---

  Of course not all gambles pan out.

Quote:

not even a $700,000,000,000 one. none of that was Lehman Brothers fault, or AIG's fault. No bad decisions are made by executives. Those people are gold, what was I thinking

---

The government caused the necessity for that bailout, which cost the taxpayers nothing.  If the government wasn't involved in making sure that even loser jerk-offs could get loans do you think the banks would have lent money to loser bums in the first place?   

And no, neither you nor cherokee is gong to get a loan from me.

imachavel said:

Enlil said:

imachavel said:

Man, I see what it is with you. You just don't like losing, you'll just keep dragging this on and on just because you are right. NEWS FLASH, A TURKEY IS EXPENSIVE. With $20, do you think that you can buy a turkey, and have a lot of money left to prepare the turkey very well?

Anyway, you are just arguing now to not let go of something. You must have me confused with an over consumer. Go pray to your precious government that subsidizes farms uselessly. Since you want to speak of waste, what do you think of that? Subsidizing a farm, that would grow food, for people to eat. Something much more important then the wasteful spending someone would spend on a house by buying it for $500,000. Do you find the necessary? Mr. "you can prepare a thanks giving turkey for under $20 with the vegetables and the stuffing and all"??

Do you find buying un necessary things like jewelry, a very expensive convertible car, first class plane tickets, as waste ful as eating what you claim is "whatever you want"? You talk about me spending $30 a day on food as though it's necessary for the benefit of society

Do you find other things more waste ful then buying expensive food? Does buying expensive food pollute the environment? Let's bring that up, what if I don't want to drive a car, or take a bus, because it pollutes the environment. But where I work is too far to bike to every day. Should I just lay down and not care about the conditions I live in? You claim creating your own future and not expecting society to just give you something is a much faster way of earning what you truly deserve. How the fuck is how much I spend on food waste ful?

What are you babbling about for? Is this going to turn into a convo about welfare, food stamps, waste ful spending that somehow raises the deficit because I don't live next to a costco and cook expensively? man those meals totaling over $20 a day really fucking add up

waste social spending if I've ever seen it cause of the deficit......... somehow

---

You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the word "minimum"...if you're making minimum wage, you should be living minimally...

Living minimally means surviving...not living comfortably...not having a spare room and a diet of whatever you deem optimal...It means having shelter from the weather, and enough nutrition to survive...If you want to live better than that, you'll have to get a job that pays more...

---

gee, I thought minimum wage was to ensure that employees got paid a certain amount for their work, instead of the corporation just paying them whatever they want, which could be $1.25 an hour. I thought it was in compliance with labor laws, and that because of it, no corporation should ever have to pay you a cent more.

I didn't realize it was some social distinction, that involved that you were required to have the minimum, as some sort of punishment for not working hard enough, or not getting an education, as though society was putting you in a place, where you have to work hard just to have a loaf of bread. Your idea of minimum wage is sounding less like labor laws, and more like a movie about orphanages. "please sir, may I have another" "laddie, come get your whupping for asking!" "please sir, may I have another"

Jesus Christ, aren't you a lawyer? I didn't know laws in a democracy about the MINIMUM one would get paid had to do with some sort of social standard, I thought it had to do with labor protection laws.

Zappa, what do you think, may I have another bowl or porridge, or should I get my hands whupped by Obama for asking. You know enlil, you should understand how many people hate working, and go on welfare to avoid getting a shit job that pays low. It's not a great consolation, but the higher the minimum wage, the more qualified a person needs to be to get and keep a job. Zap seems to have this idea that if you end up working for a place for 10 years, and are still making minimum wage, that you are a moron. Do you guys like in Grenich Connecticut or what? Have you really cooked food for yourself every day, or did you just straight go to school, have a fancy trust fund, then pass the bar and start lawyering and start making a salary?

You people act as though no person who makes minimum wage ever had any reason to be on minimum wage, other then stupidity. If it wasn't for government loans, some people wouldn't be able to afford college. They'd HAVE to take whatever job they can get. Zapp swears that if you work your ass off for 15 years, you are guaranteed a HUGE RAISE at a GREAT company. Which is bull shit, a few dollars more, maybe, but there's no guarantee anyone will treat you well.

Then statements such as "the more you think society owes you something, the less you get, the less you work for yourself, and get what you deserve that people owe you"

Well to me it's not a question about what society owes someone, it's a question of, "why work for someone that doesn't appreciate me, I'm going to work my ass off for so and so and so and then hear someone tell me I can't eat on any more then $10 a day?"

Jeez, that makes sense. No wonder people live on welfare. No wonder people don't do shit. I'll tell you, I'd never work for a guy, for one day, for one fucking minute, if he expected me, to get off work and eat on $10. I work my ass off, I'm tired, your damn right I'm going to go buy a beer and a burger at Wendy's, I fucking earned. I'll be homeless before I live by your standards. I really will. And I'm sure you couldn't care less. But honestly I couldn't fucking care less about you or your sanctimonious shit that you speak of while earning a lawyers salary.

And besides, some people don't like school, some people aren't good at school. They go to college and start taking classes that have to do with math and language and science and things they already did in high school, and the theory makes no sense to them. Then there are people who think just that "how does theory give me experience." It's as if I said "passing the bar exam makes you a good lawyer" You'd be like, really? You'd say "being a good lawyer takes years and years and years of experience, practice, understanding in the field, the bar is just theory, it's just a fucking test, how does that get you a job, it only promotes what you already know"

And that's just what college is. College is a place to go and study and learn theory, which promotes you. It's not a place to get experience. People these days, act as though college is a place where you go, and leave, and someone owes you 80k a year right off the bat. An education is supposed to market experience you already have. Some people don't think school is for them. But they are very dedicated people who want to work hard and have owner ship of themselves and freedom. Enlil is bitching at a person who works their ass off and expects to be able to eat $20 of food a day. What about lazy fucks who stand in front of BK, they are bums, and ask for money, and use the money to go buy burgers and smoke crack. They usually live on more then $20 a day. A person who works all day can't have that? Do you think a world that your kids grow up in, where hard work isn't rewarded, but just "owner ship" is rewarded, teaches good morals?

Why that sounds down right materialistic. I'll tell you, not for one second do I ever want to have kids again. This fucking world is pathetic, it makes me sick. That materialism is rewarded, but hard work isn't. I find it sickening. Then Zappa says "if a woman can't get a better then minimum wage job, she shouldn't even have one kid"

I find that hard to understand, there are women who have kids who love the shit out of their kids, and work weekend jobs and shit and love the kid and spoil the kid and buy him shit he doesn't need, pay his health insurance, pay the bills, drive him to school every day. Do you think that's wrong? Don't you have a mother? Don't you love her and wish for better living conditions? When my mother was a kid, she grew up in a house with two brothers and two sisters. The mother stayed at home and cooked, and my grandfather worked a job at a lumber mill, and then a week end job as a sheriff. He'd go work 60 hours a week, come back, spoil the kids. My grand ma cooked every night, he sent each kid to college, they had three cars.

Sure, he started at minimum wage, but got raises every year. You don't get a fucking raise every year working at burger king. And you know what he said when he got home? "I don't know what everyone talks about, that I work so hard, while I'm at work mom stays here taking care of the kids, her job is MUCH harder then mine"

That is fucking dedication. Not going and making 60k a year and taking four hour lunches on a lawyers salary, but working hard, and teaching your kids that hard work should be rewarded, and not to ever be lazy.

This thread makes me fucking sick Honestly......

Don't forget, if you believe in god. Don't forget what god says "I judge your actions, but more so, I judge your motives." They say people see your actions, but god always sees your motives. You can't hide that. I mean god is my fucking witness, do you actually like democracy enlil?

---

zappaisgod said:

imachavel said:

oh boy. Sorry mr. Gordon Gekko, I forgot was street never makes mistakes

---

  Of course not all gambles pan out.

Quote:

not even a $700,000,000,000 one. none of that was Lehman Brothers fault, or AIG's fault. No bad decisions are made by executives. Those people are gold, what was I thinking

---

The government caused the necessity for that bailout, which cost the taxpayers nothing.  If the government wasn't involved in making sure that even loser jerk-offs could get loans do you think the banks would have lent money to loser bums in the first place?   

And no, neither you nor cherokee is gong to get a loan from me.

---

imachavel said:

Gilgamesh18 said:

Not Quite Social said:

Really?  How then is your extravagant delusion sustained?  How do monkeys commonly fly around the world in airplanes?  What is this floating, man-made city of pleasure seekers called a cruise ship?  How do monkeys eat locally out-of-season fruit, or mid-continent monkeys eat seafood? How do monkeys live in buildings over 1000 ft above the ground?  I can go on and on.  How do these real things comport with your delusions of scarcity and unsustainability?

---

All of those things you mentioned are the result of capitalism and the free market being allowed to function correctly. If you marxists had your way we would all be living in mud huts scrounging in the woods for food while a few elite party members determine how all resources are distributed. This has been said many times but I will say it again the free market is the best way to eliminate poverty and inequality no other system on earth has as much social mobility as capitalist nations. Mandating equality by governmental force lowers the standard of living for all and penalizes the best and brightest.

---

let me ask you a question. For years a minimum wage has existed. And yet I've never heard the terms 'free market' and 'minimum wage' separated so often. Until recently, until this economic crisis. Maybe it is just me, and who I speak to. But is it some type of universal concept that minimum wage and free market don't conceptually belong in the same sentence together?

I suppose it is some what against the free market, to demand certain things be paid. But then how are taxes a free market terminology? It is true though, if the minimum wage was removed, people would have to be extremely demanding of jobs, considering that people could get paid whatever an employer chose.

I'm not against the idea, but remember, previous countries without minimum wage laws, were mostly socialist countries, where no person could ever complain about what they'd make. In this country, with freedom of speech, and democracy, without minimum wage laws, people would get really bitchy if they walked into a job and weren't offered a good wage. The amount of people on welfare might increase. But all in all, it may very well be a very good idea.

If it worked. If people acted like brain less monkeys, and just took whatever people gave them, and never complained, then it'd be much much much worst. But if people spoke up for themselves, an interview would be much more like a bargain then just a fill in scenario for a job. In this ideal scenario, I'd like the world much much better. I just question is this reality would every truly come to fruition. There are tons of people, who even with minimum wage in place, never argue or bargain a bit, they could float from interview to interview, and bargain and say "no $7 isn't good enough for me, I got paid more before", and yet they don't. They just walk right in, and ask what it pays, and when someone says "it pays $7" they are like "fine, I'll take whatever I can get!"

It's really sad to be honest. The amount of demanding people is substantially low these days. The amount of people who vote beyond the two party system is substantially low these days. But none the less, it IS possible to understand, you won't always get what you want, but to be demanding either way. I wish people really gave a shit about their scenarios, instead of just saying "oh well whatever, I gotta do what I gotta do, and that's the first thing in front of me" Oh well.......

---

Gilgamesh18 said:

Socialist polices like minimum wage impoverise the worker and they actually don't benefit from it.

---