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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight
    #16123799 -

I got a surprising email from my materialist brother-in-law 3 weeks after my Father-in-law died - the following one liner:

"Check this out: http://www.salon.com/2012/04/21/near_death_explained/"

to which I replied
Quote:
The point is made with eloquence, but the science supporting the point is not clearly isolated, and it may not be for a very long time:

(A) the anecdote
The patient recounts hearing "I think we have a problem" after she finds herself hovering, and having seen the tool and having described the tool which she has not seen in real life. [this is described as mindsight - experienced while out of body  and it is an amazing mystery]
The patient recounts a scene 'cut' (to use a cinematic term) where she passes through some dimensional vortex meets her relatives briefly and is escorted back to her body and is revived [the classic NDE]
The heart and brain were flat lined for a period of time during the operation and the revival.

(B) the summary and conclusion
In the summary, another significant anecdote is recounted wherein a heart attack patient floats outside the treatment room of the hospital and sees a tennis shoe with laces stuck to the bottom - the object of this mindsight OBE was retrieved as described which is an amazing mystery.
I don't remember an associated NDE anecdote of meeting the dead and returning to the living, but it is classed as the NDE even though it is described as the possibly the most significant recourded OBE mystery.
.

Ongoing points of argument are touched on with marginal accuracy in respect to ketamine experiences and the chemical relevance of that drug's gross metabolism and the curious results of angular gyrus (electro-)magnetic stimulation which seems to cause OBE like experiences but does not usually cause NDE experiences.

The force of the summary is to rally interest in the truth of stories of events happening in the period of time that the brain has flat-lined, and to pit that against the efforts of scientists that would wish to say that only while the brain functions is there an experience happening.

(C) my take on it

I think there is a clear separation in quality and in content of OBE experiences and in NDE experiences.
OBE and Mindsight involve non-body experiencing of the scene including aspects of the scene that can be elsewhere.

I think it is fair to say that OBE and mindsight are unsolved mysteries, but it is not fair to say that they occur during the flat-line time of the story.

I think that the NDE part - i.e. vortex transitions to visiting beings or relatives segued into return to the body is in a different class.

The time base of Dream Sequences is not discussed in this article. We know that entire dream sequences occur instantaneously or within seconds during which a story-line of hours may transpire (or get filled in afterwards).

My take is that the NDE is a dream sequence that always occurs after revival, as the brain is made to return to normal functioning.


I think the OBE is a dream sequence as the patient begins to succumb to narcosis/anaesthesia (or to natural mental state transitioning as dreams and emotional transitions in some reports) OBE's with Mindsight are rare and special and suggest that the mind has access to sensory input from senses that we do not fully understand.

The sciences of Dreaming, of Psychedelic and narcotic brain function as correlated to experience, have to be furthered to help isolate which part of which experience has which footprint in brain activity (i.e. recordable experience from the brain - some of this is now being done and we can see movies of ideas as they are being thought, recalled, and experienced - google "cat brain vision video"
)

The time-line of experience has to be mapped to the time-line of the brain activity. (not assumed as it is in this case to be a single continuous timeline)

I believe that this account of an NDE was of the nature of two dreams: one prior to flat-line, and one after flat-line - but it is represented as having a continuity through the operation while we know dreams occur in an instant or in a very brief succession of moments.

The dream prior to flat-line has the extra special-ness of the mystery of Mindsight - the dream after flat-line suggesting afterlife geometries is problematic in that it attracts much belief and conviction among  people who did not actually have the experience - and this clouds the whole matter

I want them to investigate the real mystery of Mindsight and I want them to get smarter about dream reporting like the cat vision video.




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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16124189 -

and?


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16124197 -

That was a great reply. Here's mine:

NDErs claim that without physical bodies, they are able to penetrate through walls and doors and project themselves wherever they want.

How do they manage to constantly spiral around in space chasing the moving point on the surface of the Earth where they're supposedly passing through walls as the Earth orbits?

They interviewed 31 individuals, of whom 14 were blind from birth... the experiences they reported conform to the classic NDE pattern

How does a person blind from birth describe the "light in the tunnel" and so on when they don't have those concepts in the first place. I'm not denying they saw light, I'm denying that the article is a balanced report leaving out what exactly these blind people said they "saw" after teasing us by stating that the blind NDE "conforms to the classic NDE pattern". How does a person blind from birth report seeing a white (or any other color) light? Something smells like fish. What exact words do they use that can be said to "conform to the classic NDE"?

“I thought the way they had my head shaved was very peculiar,” she said. “I expected them to take all of the hair, but they did not.”

This makes no sense. Surgeons don't wait until the patient is under general anesthesia to shave a patient's head while an extremely expensive team of 20+ medical professionals stands around watching a haircut.

This is done well in advance of the surgery with the patient awake because every minute the patient spends cut open increases the risk that they won't survive.

Then the story goes on to say that the patient remembers the sound of the bone saw even with her ears plugged, but c'mon, sound conducts through bone very easily. Why are they stating this as if it's surprising?

Perhaps most importantly, notice that all the things reported happened during the part of the surgery when the patient was isothermic under just barely enough general anesthesia to keep the patient unconscious. Her heart and brain were fully active consistent with normal anesthesia.

But once the hypothermic part of the operation began when the heart and brain stop working, there's a complete absence of any more NDE reports. Where is the description of the aneurysm being anastamosed with the artery from the thigh? Where is the description of the team resecting the brain stem to reach the aneurysm? Where is anything at all between the time the EEG flatlined and the time it restarted? Is it a coincidence that there's nothing to report during the time her brain was REALLY stopped by the cold and anoxia? I don't think so. I think that point is at the core of the issue and despite the article's expansive narrative, it fails to mention it.

These may seem like a bunch of picked nits, but an objective person has to see this story as highly biased at a minimum, leaving out important parts that might work to undermine the main thrust of the story in favor of validating NDE instead of reporting honestly and letting the truth speak for itself.

In the end, these handful of spectacular cases ignore the gazillion other people who nearly died and either reported nothing, or reported completely inaccurate "views" of the operating room. The lady in this story knew ahead of time that an artery would be removed from her thigh, as the surgeon must have explained the procedure to her several times. So then she reported that they couldn't get it from one side and had to try the other, but only after waking up and noticing both thighs bandaged when the original plan was for only one. :rolleyes: If you do enough of these operations, eventually someone's random recollections will jive with what happened. It seems amazing only until one considers it's a single "amazing" positive among millions of spectacular negatives.

The simple fact is that given a sufficiently large sample size, there will always be outliers that through random chance will report amazingly accurate results if taken in isolation. But when pooled with the entire sample of mostly negatives, the amazing results become part of normal statistical dispersion from random chance.

Even a fair coin will flip 10 heads in a row if you flip a million times.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: Icelander]
    #16124254 -

no reply yet really
but the facts are garbled as per usual.

on the one hand the NDE's normally start (IMHO) with a tunnel or toilet swirling awakening (consistent with what you would expect while the heart gets restarted and is not yet up to speed) so that consciousness resumes through anoxia - i.e. like a nitrous trip or with a deleriant.

the person may instantaneously recognize they died or are dead in a flash (but they don't get that they are being revived) and the idea "dead" brings associations of their dead people ti the fore of this trip - so they meet their dead in this NDE dream for a minute (probably seconds) and one of their dead usually ushers them back to their cold body (or tags along for the tug back to life)- the whole NDE experience is a dream that is taking place during re-vivification.

OBE's on the other hand are not NDE's and OBE's have been reported to exhibit the Mindsight ability (a true mystery).

My point was that the OBE's occur during the descent into anaesthesia (for these proceedures with stopped hearts) and then there is a real but ignored  discontinuity while the brain is flat-lined.

Later the tunnel is the start of the next dream conscious event (after anaesthesia), though in memory it may seem a single continuity from OBE to NDE, while in actuallity the surgery occurs mostly during the gap between OBE & NDE --- or to restate, between drug trip (OBE) and revivication dream (NDE).

Note you can and do get these tunnels from any nauseating transition when really intoxicated.

I am not comfortable with people combining the two trips and labeling them  NDE's, nor am I happy to be sold a bill of goods that NDE has Mindsight.

HOWEVER

I am not certain that OBE's cannot have Mindsight, although I have no idea how OBE gets that effect, especially in such a case like the vision of the running shoe which was later found outside the building in the second anecdote.

I am happy that there is consistency with OBE's occurring before surgery, and NDE's occurring after revivification.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16124295 -

I am not certain that OBE's cannot have Mindsight, although I have no idea how OBE gets that effect, especially in such a case like the vision of the running shoe which was later found outside the building in the second anecdote.

These are always interesting, but I can't help but wonder if for every one of these there aren't thousands of other cases where something equally unlikely is reported but nothing is found. Then the thousands of negatives are forgotten and the one positive makes CNN that evening.

In isolation, the positive looks very impressive, but taken in an honest all-data analysis, it might be a the lucky hit that is inevitable in a large sampling, and impressive only because the rest of the (negative) sampling isn't reported.

Plus the world is full of hoaxes. It would not be the first time that someone bends the truth a little to support their world view to reporters.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: Diploid]
    #16124501 -

OBE's could be tested more based upon angular gurus stimulation and or ketamine - I don't think that is being done to test Mindsight.

NDE's should be tested after they fix the cat brain vision gear so that we can see human ideation, and thereby better qualify that the NDE experience does occur either during revival and cortical reactivation (in which case we will see elements of the NDE on screen), or during some void time when nobody is home (in which case we will probably not see anything on the cat vision screen).


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16125048 -

Stanislav Grof said the amount this kind of thing happened while they were doing their LSD sessions and was found correct gave him and other collegues undeniable evidence that the phenomenon was real. I neither believe him nor disbelieve him but it was interesting to hear nonetheless.


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Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: Grapefruit]
    #16125456 -

undeniable evidence that the phenomenon was real

If that were true, someone would have won the JREF million dollar challenge by now. I for one who have experienced the exact same thing, been 100% convinced, then realized I was fooling myself when a strict experimental protocol to prevent self-deception was put in place. :sorry:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: Diploid]
    #16126157 -

Quote:
In the end, these handful of spectacular cases ignore the gazillion other people



Are Gazillions people from Gazil?


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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: Diploid]
    #16126179 -

Quote:
Sergions don't wait until the patient is under general anethesia



Surgeons named Sergio?


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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16126254 -

Yeah, he's from Gazil. :hehehe:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: Diploid]
    #16126343 -

Do you remember the pop jazz group Sergio Mendes and Gazil '66?


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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16126364 -

Hell no! I'm not that old. :oldman:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: Diploid]
    #16126390 -

Ever heard of Beethoven?


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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16127164 -

Gazilian Sergions faced the Mongol Horde before Mozart made notes.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16127198 -



And you thought Wiconsin was all about the cheese. What was this thread about? I forget.


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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16127305 -

it's about history, telling it straight, and getting the sequence right.

incredible things do happen, yet they become credible only if seen in context and in proper sequence, while out of sequence and out of context they become trash.

I am not blaming you specifically, but the thread has filled with garbage since you started.

I think this thread is about sorting through the trash. maybe this whole forum is.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: redgreenvines]
    #16127436 -

Was there more to discuss after Diploid's deconstruction? Was there something different about this than the other two hundred threads on NDEs?


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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16127599 -

No and yes, (in that order)
why would you ask?
did you read any of it?


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: NDE's VS OBE's with Mindsight [Re: Diploid]
    #16128228 -

Diploid said:
undeniable evidence that the phenomenon was real

If that were true, someone would have won the JREF million dollar challenge by now. I for one who have experienced the exact same thing, been 100% convinced, then realized I was fooling myself when a strict experimental protocol to prevent self-deception was put in place. :sorry:



I think he means he personally found it undeniable. Seems like a somewhat out of context quote.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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