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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
    #14917784 -

The realm of forms is not batshit insane: read some of Pythagora's writings or writings about Pythagoras along with Euclid's elements if you know nothing of geometry or mathematics in general.

There is a reason that inscribed over the entrance to Plato's academy was "Let none who no nothing of Geometry enter" or something to that effect.


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:hamletmonkey:

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14917791 -

What is life?


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:hamletmonkey:

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Mnboardin]
    #14917795 -

I find the writing style of ancient philosophers to be a bit distasteful.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14917834 -

I suspect that the very possibility for materialism has a lot to do with the mood of the being who postulates it.


A duality between necessity and freedom still exists. It is a, if not the, central philosophical problem as well.


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:hamletmonkey:

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid]
    #14917994 -

yeah, dionysius and plotinus are both on my list of people to read ox. i wish i could find a school that teaches a class on neo-platonism.

i think the dialogs came first, but i'm not certain of that. it took plato 40 years to write all of them. :shrug:


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Mnboardin]
    #14919554 -

Mnboardin said:
The realm of forms is not batshit insane: read some of Pythagora's writings or writings about Pythagoras along with Euclid's elements if you know nothing of geometry or mathematics in general.

There is a reason that inscribed over the entrance to Plato's academy was "Let none who no nothing of Geometry enter" or something to that effect.


lol wut?

plato's the realm of forms has nothing to do with pythagoras. pythagoras was the man, so i don't know where this defensiveness is coming from.

plato's idea about the forms didn't happen in a vacuum...it developed and changed and he even self criticized it. i think we are discussing the phaedo quote that was presented earlier to be specific.

Edit: pythagoras was a mystic as well as a mathematician. the "batshitness" of the realm of the forms is the deductive reasoning plato uses to get there. i am advaita, but i don't get there using reasoning, but through mystical experience. that conversation doesn't belong in the philosophy forum, but in the spirituality/mysticism forum.


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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt

"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing

"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi

Edited by sonoffox (08/14/11 08:49 AM)

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
    #14923353 -

Perhaps you are right, that Plato's attempt to derive th forms through reasoning was failed from the start.

But to describe the role of forms in thought - do you think that attempt failed as well?

This was, of course, the same goal of pythagoras, who did not just meditate but discovered, and communicated


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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14923773 -

i think plato's relation to pythagoras is what i was referring to earlier about forms regarding shapes in nature. we can contemplate the existence of a perfect circle but yet none exist in material reality. same goes for our notions of perfection i.e. the "platonic friendship", the mythological notion of christ, a perfect human being, or our even our idealized (and unhealthy imo) standards for the "perfect relationship". none of these things have ever, nor will ever exist. platonism is so deeply engrained in the bedrock of our culture it's just how we tend to think.

and poid, i'm going to get a response to your question. i'm sick as hell right now and having to work, so just please give me some time.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (08/15/11 12:36 AM)

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14923821 -

No biggy. :thumbup:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14924297 -

millzy said:
i think plato's relation to pythagoras is what i was referring to earlier about forms regarding shapes in nature. we can contemplate the existence of a perfect circle but yet none exist in material reality. same goes for our notions of perfection i.e. the "platonic friendship", the mythological notion of christ, a perfect human being, or our even our idealized (and unhealthy imo) standards for the "perfect relationship". none of these things have ever, nor will ever exist. platonism is so deeply engrained in the bedrock of our culture it's just how we tend to think.

and poid, i'm going to get a response to your question. i'm sick as hell right now and having to work, so just please give me some time.


btw it is 'plutonic' friendship

though, dont you think it is worth distinguishing the perfect circle's existance in the mind from its existance in the world? I would say that no concepts trully exist in the world, they are all mental objects that we create to help understand the world at certain scales.

eg. the circle does exist 'in the world' when you consider a well drawn circle at a certain resolution, but not when you zoom in. similarly, all scientific laws exist at certain scales, and the issue at hand for many scientists is to try to find a perfect law describing every event at any scale. will it ever exist? who knows...


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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14924506 -

Noteworthy said:
millzy said:
i think plato's relation to pythagoras is what i was referring to earlier about forms regarding shapes in nature. we can contemplate the existence of a perfect circle but yet none exist in material reality. same goes for our notions of perfection i.e. the "platonic friendship", the mythological notion of christ, a perfect human being, or our even our idealized (and unhealthy imo) standards for the "perfect relationship". none of these things have ever, nor will ever exist. platonism is so deeply engrained in the bedrock of our culture it's just how we tend to think.

and poid, i'm going to get a response to your question. i'm sick as hell right now and having to work, so just please give me some time.


btw it is 'plutonic' friendship

No it isn't:

Platonic love
Quote:
Platonic love is a chaste and strong type of love that is non-sexual.


plutonic
Quote:
formed by solidification of magma deep within the earth and crystalline throughout <plutonic rock>



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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #14924520 -

I thought maybe he was going for irony?

:rofl:


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:inlove3::inlove3:

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Blondell_Letrange]
    #14924662 -

i've had a few plutonic love affairs...very volcanic.


--------------------
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt

"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing

"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
    #14924735 -

Were they solid, though?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid]
    #14925035 -

nope im just wrong... i mean... just trying to test you...

Actually I just thought it wasnt 'Platonic'... which it isnt...in the sense of the context here. So I assumed it was plutonic. But I made an ass of you and me

I do find this interesting though. I didnt realise its connections to Plato before


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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14925200 -

On further contemplation I totally embrace the notion of Platonic love stemming from Plato, I think Ive been considering a different notion, however, and using the term platonic love in a different way


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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14925423 -

Quote:
btw it is 'plutonic' friendship




Noteworthy said:
though, dont you think it is worth distinguishing the perfect circle's existance in the mind from its existance in the world? I would say that no concepts trully exist in the world, they are all mental objects that we create to help understand the world at certain scales.



well that was my (and plato's) point with the use of the realm of forms. for plato these existed in an extra-mental space, beyond mind, and we can never fully know the nature of their existence but are able to contemplate it and know their essence. this is also the classical answer to how the concept of god works too btw.

Quote:
the circle does exist 'in the world' when you consider a well drawn circle at a certain resolution, but not when you zoom in. similarly, all scientific laws exist at certain scales, and the issue at hand for many scientists is to try to find a perfect law describing every event at any scale. will it ever exist? who knows...


i'm talking about a perfect circle here, not a well drawn one. i'm not sure how m-theory applies to this.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (08/15/11 11:12 AM)

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14925461 -

You are right, the platonic realm is beyond mind, but we access it through our mind (well we obviously dont access it through nature since they dont exist).

A well drawn circle will form a perfect circle in your mind ... where the form is being apprehended.


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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14925499 -

eh, kind of. it works like this, from my understanding.

the good
forms
-----------------------the divided line
mind
shadows of the forms
shadows of the shadows of forms (art) - i think this is incorrect btw

according to plato, our reality is bifurcated by the divided line and through the light of the good the forms send their shadows down into our minds and material existence.

that's a pretty basic explanation though. guys like plotinus, who ox mentioned, expanded greatly on this model. i'd love to study plotinus, but i'd prefer to do it formally b/c it's a big piece to bite off from what i understand. grad school type stuff. i'd like to study heidegger's "being and time" in a similar setting as well.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14925548 -

Right, well thats a good explanation.

I am thinking that although the reality is a shadow of the forms, as according to plato, the mind is still apprehending the forms. Indeed  Plato says the role of the philosopher is to keep track of these forms, no? Sometimes we think about them and other times we construct them and see them, as in geometry.

And the mind would be able to aprehend the perfect circle in an image when zoomed out. not whilst zoomed in.


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