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 millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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 existentialism - the gateway philosophy? 
#14900239 - 08/10/11 09:10 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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i see a lot of people recommending neitzsche on here for beginners, and as someone who read some of the same stuff in my younger days, i'd like to throw around an idea. basically, i think starting out with this stuff, especially as a younger person without as much life experience or little, if any, background studying philosophy, tends to kind of fuel this cynical, materialist world view. and i think his ripping criticism of christianity, while dead on in the context of the brand of christianity he is railing againgst, also make his work attractive to young people wanting to buck the system, so to speak. i also think that the greater message of his work, that being that we are ultimately responsible for what we get out of life, is often overlooked.
this isn't to say that neitzsche and his ilk's work isn't without merit. quite the contrary. but after having lived a little and formally studied some of the classical stuff, i tend to interpret nietzche differently. to me existentialism is a philosophy hope and personal empowerment and not one of bitter, aimless nihlism.
i'm by no means an expert of philosophy, but my personal advice to anyone seeking to learn more is to start with the two guys whose ideas constitute a considerable portion of the ideological bedrock that informs the western reality; plato and aristotle. getting at least a basic grasp of both of these guys will do wonders for when you're ready to jump in with both feet with more contemporary stuff that has been built from the classical models.
idk, just rambling. i love philosophy and would like it if more people truly understood it, and starting out with, what is in some cases, grad school level texts is most likely going to lead to some pretty crucial misunderstandings.
thoughts?
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14900275 - 08/10/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'd start with Alfred E, Neuman and Firesign Theater. You'd be good to go.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DisoRDeR
motional
Registered: 08/29/02
Posts: 1,158
Loc: nonsensistan
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14900416 - 08/10/11 10:09 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I remember finding Thus Spoke Zarathustra to be an inspirational book on first reading, though at that point I was into my mid-twenties and largely past the preceding bitterness, though still an aimless wanderer. I read most of it on trains.
I see the early embrace of existentialism as more of a cultural deprogramming stage, which will often involve a bit of reactionary bitterness depending on the degree to which one was indoctrinated into nonsense in their youth. It is a taste of freedom; a recognition of and railing against the ties that bind. The process of expanding (the illusion of?) one's capacity for free will can be emotionally sloppy as the newly birthed mind finds it's legs.
Perhaps one could have a more stable and middle-path procession into philosophy, but where's the fun in that?
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14900524 - 08/10/11 10:44 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
this isn't to say that neitzsche and his ilk's work isn't without merit. quite the contrary. but after having lived a little and formally studied some of the classical stuff, i tend to interpret nietzche differently. to me existentialism is a philosophy hope and personal empowerment and not one of bitter, aimless nihlism.
I really like what you said here. I took philosophy as a minor in college (one not known for their philosophy department, mind you) and in my memory, the department was half filled with beret wearing Sartre quoters. But my memory always seems to leave out that I was one of them. lol. Philosophy isn't about wearing black, but like DisoRDeR says, "The process of expanding (the illusion of?) one's capacity for free will can be emotionally sloppy as the newly birthed mind finds it's legs."
I love the Nietzch-man as literature, but there are plenty of poetic philosophers out there. You mentioned Plato (Aristotle is about as dry as a Monday morning) but there is also Kierkegaard, William James, Emerson and others. I am surprised with the sudden outburst of the "new atheism" movement that there isn't more interest in Hume and Schopenhauer. For me, the "coolest of the cool" is Hegel.
In order for philosophy to be relevant today, I think it needs to be read outside of the ivory towers of academia. It has to remember its spoonful or sugar, so to speak. The analytical philosophy of today is really just an algebra for linguistics, IMHO. The only relevant philosopher worth reading today (that I know of, so don't hold me to this) is Daniel Dennet, and I strongly disagree with much of him.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14901079 - 08/10/11 12:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonoffox said:
In order for philosophy to be relevant today, I think it needs to be read outside of the ivory towers of academia. It has to remember its spoonful or sugar, so to speak. The analytical philosophy of today is really just an algebra for linguistics, IMHO. The only relevant philosopher worth reading today (that I know of, so don't hold me to this) is Daniel Dennet, and I strongly disagree with much of him.
i'm not sure i totally agree with that. if you're referring to "philosophy" classes that are nothing more than survey courses with textbooks (lol), then i agree. but the classes i have taken have consisted of reading and discussing/debating in depth the texts we're studying. perhaps i've just lucked out. in any case, my point is that, for me personally, after spending some time studying under the guidance of someone with expansive knowledge of the subject and a rock solid grasp of the concepts, i have a deeper understanding of it than i did just picking up books here and there and reading philosophy forums etc. a perfect example is that while i was living in greece i decided to read republic. i got a lot out of it. but after a year of just studying and dissecting just a few dialogues, i didn't get as much out of republic as i thought i did.
moreover regarding plato and aristotle, plato to me is extremely interesting, but i do agree that aristotle is dry, and i have mixed emotions concerning how deeply engrained aristotelian logic is embedded in the western mindset. nevertheless both of these men's contributions are the foundation of our reality, and they undoubtedly have had enormous influence over all of western philosophy. nietzsche's concept of the "superman" is platonic idealism (ironically, so is christianity but we can keep that a secret from the hot topic crowd for now). that's why i think it's important to have at least a basic understanding of the classical guys, because all of contemporary philosophy references back to them, sometimes in obvious and intentional, ways.
indeed, "finding ones legs" is always a messy process, but imo at the same time it doesn't have to be crawling through the woods in the middle of the night blindfolded.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (08/10/11 12:34 PM)
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14902941 - 08/10/11 06:56 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
i'm not sure i totally agree with that. if you're referring to "philosophy" classes that are nothing more than survey courses with textbooks (lol), then i agree. but the classes i have taken have consisted of reading and discussing/debating in depth the texts we're studying.
no, i wasn't referring to classes or teachers, i was referring to people who are creating analytic philosophy. its all logic and mathematics (bertrand russell's proof of arithmetic using logic is an example.) it is neat, but useless. they have become so wrapped up in what can be verified that they have become afraid to say anything at all. there are exceptions, but people like lacan and derrida are so dense that even many philosophers believe they are emperors with no clothes, passing off mumbo-jumbo as philosophy. (i personally feel derrida killed literature. i'm viscously against deconstruction.)
about christianity being platonic. oh hell yes. and many would claim that was a big mistake, because it comes from augustine, not jesus. fuck augustine...he is why christianity is afraid of sex and anything bodily. jesus was a dionysian figure (wine, parties, prostitutes, peace love and happiness) but augustine turned him into an apollo. (lol...this is my field. i could go on forever.)
ps...love that pk dick quote.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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 blingbling
what you chicken stew?
Registered: 09/04/10
Posts: 2,987
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14903110 - 08/10/11 07:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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this thread is very interesting i don't really know that much about philosophy except what i've learnt in anthropology class and some psychoanlytic theory (neither of which are pure philosophy but contain some aspects of philosophy) i found a copy of ernest beckers denial of death at my uni library so thats what i'll be reading over semester break. i'd love to do a course in philosophy but my university doesn't have one  i guess i'll just go straight to neitzsche and begin my nihilistic despair 
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Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.
cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.
dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.
White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: blingbling]
#14903999 - 08/10/11 10:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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honestly, people think that about nietzsche, but he is actually against nihilism (though suspects it is inevitable) and the overman is a life affirming concept. he foresaw our nightmare, he didn't wish for it.
my favorite quote: "without music, life would be a mistake."
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14904073 - 08/10/11 10:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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At werk right now, but you guys rock and i shall post some more comments tommorow morning when im off.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
Posts: 6,024
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14904990 - 08/11/11 05:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
i see a lot of people recommending neitzsche on here for beginners, and as someone who read some of the same stuff in my younger days, i'd like to throw around an idea. basically, i think starting out with this stuff, especially as a younger person without as much life experience or little, if any, background studying philosophy, tends to kind of fuel this cynical, materialist world view.
Why do you characterize materialism as cynical? It's an ontological view; it should have absolutely nothing to do with being cynical, happy, pessimistic, or whatever.
Quote:
and i think his ripping criticism of christianity, while dead on in the context of the brand of christianity he is railing againgst, also make his work attractive to young people wanting to buck the system, so to speak. i also think that the greater message of his work, that being that we are ultimately responsible for what we get out of life, is often overlooked.
Yep, it definitely is. And a lot of people also unjustly criticize Nietzsche's views as cynical or depressing.
Quote:
this isn't to say that neitzsche and his ilk's work isn't without merit. quite the contrary. but after having lived a little and formally studied some of the classical stuff, i tend to interpret nietzche differently. to me existentialism is a philosophy hope and personal empowerment and not one of bitter, aimless nihlism.
Yep, it is, as anyone who studies it learns.
Quote:
i'm by no means an expert of philosophy, but my personal advice to anyone seeking to learn more is to start with the two guys whose ideas constitute a considerable portion of the ideological bedrock that informs the western reality; plato and aristotle. getting at least a basic grasp of both of these guys will do wonders for when you're ready to jump in with both feet with more contemporary stuff that has been built from the classical models.
Adherents of Aristotle's logic held back advancement in that field for hundreds of years, convinced that the only valid type of formal logic was the syllogism, despite the obvious inconsistencies that could be passed off as true. Plato was, in my opinion, wrong about so many things I don't know where to begin, but a good place to start would be the propagation of dualism (centuries before Descartes), which has infected every branch of philosophy like a virus.
Quote:
idk, just rambling. i love philosophy and would like it if more people truly understood it, and starting out with, what is in some cases, grad school level texts is most likely going to lead to some pretty crucial misunderstandings.
thoughts?
I say if you can read a text and understand the words, then go for it. There's no single right interpretation, and repeated readings and analyzations of it will lead you to your own ideas. If you go through a period of pessimism, that's life, and in my case, partially fueled my passion for philosophy. In fact, it helped me arrive at a greater understanding of why there's no reason to be pessimistic.
So overall, I disagree with your post. Actually, I think that sort of thinking is what turns a lot of people off of philosophy; the idea that there are "levels," that they have to slog through Aristotle and Plato before they get to the moderns and contemporaries, that really speak to their time and situation.
Edited by NetDiver (08/11/11 05:59 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14905081 - 08/11/11 06:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is there anyone here who would be willing to come over to my place for like an hour before sleepy time for a few months and read Nietzsche's works to me and explain the hard parts? Other wise I fear I will never read anything but some of his cool quotes. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
Posts: 7,953
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14907263 - 08/11/11 04:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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here I was, thinking the gateway to philosophy (love of wisdom) was just asking the question: "Why?"
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14907696 - 08/11/11 05:44 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Why do you characterize materialism as cynical? It's an ontological view; it should have absolutely nothing to do with being cynical, happy, pessimistic, or whatever.
i don't categorize materialism as cynical. i said that a misreading of him can sometimes lead to a cynical outlook. i admire nieitzsche's work.
Quote:
Adherents of Aristotle's logic held back advancement in that field for hundreds of years, convinced that the only valid type of formal logic was the syllogism, despite the obvious inconsistencies that could be passed off as true.
we, as in the western world, are still on a binge of aristotelian logic. the way in which we argue law, study science etc is all based off of aristotle.
Quote:
Plato was, in my opinion, wrong about so many things I don't know where to begin, but a good place to start would be the propagation of dualism (centuries before Descartes), which has infected every branch of philosophy like a virus.
explain how plato was "wrong" in your opinion.
Quote:
I say if you can read a text and understand the words, then go for it. There's no single right interpretation, and repeated readings and analyzations of it will lead you to your own ideas. If you go through a period of pessimism, that's life, and in my case, partially fueled my passion for philosophy. In fact, it helped me arrive at a greater understanding of why there's no reason to be pessimistic.
i say that if you want to learn how to do algebra, you must first learn how to add, subtract, divide and multiply. philosophy is not open to interpretation in the way that you frame it. while there is a lush variety of opinions debating its minutia, there are also very concrete concepts that all contemporary philosophy builds off of i.e. platonic idealism, which is not a materialist concept btw - see the mention of "the overman" (thank you to whoever corrected me on that by the way. "superman" is darwinian, i think). someone reading nietzsche with a lack of that piece of knowledge will misinterpret him. it isn't a matter of being stupid, it's just not having all the tools on hand necessary to understand it.
Quote:
So overall, I disagree with your post. Actually, I think that sort of thinking is what turns a lot of people off of philosophy; the idea that there are "levels," that they have to slog through Aristotle and Plato before they get to the moderns and contemporaries, that really speak to their time and situation.
you are certainly entitled to your disagreement. indeed, putting effort into anything is what turns most people off to certain subjects.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#14907701 - 08/11/11 05:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
here I was, thinking the gateway to philosophy (love of wisdom) was just asking the question: "Why?"
the gateway to philosophy is understanding the philosophical question: that of being. what is it to be? this is the set of problems philosophy seeks to address.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14908303 - 08/11/11 08:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonoffox said:
Quote:
millzy said:
i'm not sure i totally agree with that. if you're referring to "philosophy" classes that are nothing more than survey courses with textbooks (lol), then i agree. but the classes i have taken have consisted of reading and discussing/debating in depth the texts we're studying.
no, i wasn't referring to classes or teachers, i was referring to people who are creating analytic philosophy. its all logic and mathematics (bertrand russell's proof of arithmetic using logic is an example.) it is neat, but useless. they have become so wrapped up in what can be verified that they have become afraid to say anything at all. there are exceptions, but people like lacan and derrida are so dense that even many philosophers believe they are emperors with no clothes, passing off mumbo-jumbo as philosophy. (i personally feel derrida killed literature. i'm viscously against deconstruction.)
about christianity being platonic. oh hell yes. and many would claim that was a big mistake, because it comes from augustine, not jesus. fuck augustine...he is why christianity is afraid of sex and anything bodily. jesus was a dionysian figure (wine, parties, prostitutes, peace love and happiness) but augustine turned him into an apollo. (lol...this is my field. i could go on forever.)
ps...love that pk dick quote.
btw, i'm going to reply to this, but i work nights and i'm on a total fuck of a week (switching jobs to a better one, finishing out this shit one tonight - worked 13 hours on 3 hours of sleep last night), so i don't have time just yet to get to this. i definitely would like to continue our conversation and pick your brain for some book rec's too. 
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14910706 - 08/12/11 10:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Why do you characterize materialism as cynical? It's an ontological view; it should have absolutely nothing to do with being cynical, happy, pessimistic, or whatever.
i think the cynicism isn't materialism, but the reductionism that so often goes along with it. i'm an idealist, but i think if we could actually "see" the "stuff" of ultimate reality, we would then argue that we were each correct anyway. the fact of ultimate non-dualism forgets that we experience dualism (an illusion, perhaps, but illusions are honestly experienced). we just fail to understand that beneath it is some one thing. why do we pretend we will understand that one thing with any of our words at all? why would spirit or matter apply to something we are still so far from?
if you want to see reductionism at work, read sam harris. he recently declared that there is no free-will. why? because they looked for a mechanism in certain neurological cells and they weren't there. how this means there is not a thing we all feel to be real, based on the failure of one experiment, that is bad science. on top of that, he put his findings in an essay with a "tough shit" attitude. personally, as a fan of gurdjieff (and rush!!!) you have to consciously choose to have free will. it is a phenomenological issue, and i highly doubt you will find it in the chemistry, but in the content of the mind.
to the OP...i have a ton of torrents of philosophical lectures you might enjoy. i read a ton, but i find lectures to have a certain something when it comes to philosophy. as i don't "do" philosophy, i don't need the endless proofs and careful language in much modern and post-modern work (plus, i have other interests...philosophy can dominate your life). lemme know and i'll send you a few.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14911094 - 08/12/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Can an illusion really ever be an illusion?
of course we must distinguish types of illusion. What are we being fooled about?
Either we think it is one way and it is actually another way,
or
we think it is some way but it actually doesnt exist.
So do you think that we experience reality incorrectly while still experiencing it
OR
do you think we dont experience reality at all, and are just reacting to the world as if we were?
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
#14911568 - 08/12/11 02:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
Can an illusion really ever be an illusion?
of course we must distinguish types of illusion. What are we being fooled about?
Either we think it is one way and it is actually another way,
or
we think it is some way but it actually doesnt exist.
So do you think that we experience reality incorrectly while still experiencing it
OR
do you think we dont experience reality at all, and are just reacting to the world as if we were?
i think we perceive reality through a veil that is our brain. if we were able to "see" all the information that is around us, we wouldn't be very capable. we would be in a constant state of sensory overload. this is very much the state that some hallucinogenic experiences put us in. we have blind spots to keep us focused. as we have invented devices to "view" information that our system isn't wired for, like other wavelengths of light, neutrinos, etc, we open more doors. if i told someone in the renaissance that the sun's warmth is due to an invisible form of light, they would have burned me at the stake. why? because "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C Clarke.
so, we are at a point where the new collider in switzerland is looking at things we have never been able to look at before. scientists are looking desperately for dark energy, not even a clue how to find it. are we so foolish to say there aren't vistas still to open? i'm not foolish to say that science couldn't understand the spiritual side of reality, but they haven't the tools yet. (DMT research is a step in the right direction.) science should stop telling people that their experiences are not worth studying, and people with those experiences should stop fearing science. we are all after the same thing: truth and understanding.
here are Clarke's three laws...all of which have been forgotten in the reductionist circles.
Quote:
1 When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2 The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3 Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14911633 - 08/12/11 02:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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so it seems that you take option A: you think the world is one way, when it actually is another way.
But if this is the illusion, its not really an illusion at all, because in the case of duality, the concept is derived from the fact of perception, which is the same regardless of the content
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
#14911763 - 08/12/11 03:02 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
so it seems that you take option A: you think the world is one way, when it actually is another way.
But if this is the illusion, its not really an illusion at all, because in the case of duality, the concept is derived from the fact of perception, which is the same regardless of the content
yeah, i agree with this. illusion wasn't the best choice of words.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14912177 - 08/12/11 04:34 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonoffox said:
i think the cynicism isn't materialism, but the reductionism that so often goes along with it. i'm an idealist, but i think if we could actually "see" the "stuff" of ultimate reality, we would then argue that we were each correct anyway. the fact of ultimate non-dualism forgets that we experience dualism (an illusion, perhaps, but illusions are honestly experienced). we just fail to understand that beneath it is some one thing. why do we pretend we will understand that one thing with any of our words at all? why would spirit or matter apply to something we are still so far from?
succinctly put. i also think that dualism is demonstrable by the one thing that arguably makes us human: our minds. we can determine where all of the chemical reactions occur that give rise to mind, but yet cannot point to where it resides in euclidean space. ultimately though, the two planes must intersect in some way at some, perhaps even quantum, level. otherwise there would no interaction. perhaps the problem between dualism vs. materialism is that neither label appropriately describes what's happening.
i would love whatever torrents you'd be willing to share. and btw, my reply is still coming. i have to run some errands but will working around 10pm tonight, so i'll be on. i wanna talk about augustine.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14912190 - 08/12/11 04:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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btw, on the clarke tip fox, have you read the short story "the nine billion names of god"? if not, read it, it's a good one. the very last line is one of the most memorable lines i've ever read in fiction.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14912349 - 08/12/11 05:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
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Visionary Tools said:
here I was, thinking the gateway to philosophy (love of wisdom) was just asking the question: "Why?"
the gateway to philosophy is understanding the philosophical question: that of being. what is it to be? this is the set of problems philosophy seeks to address.
Here I was, thinking it was love of wisdom. Then again, it is wise to know what it is "to be". But I have not read not experienced for myself what it is to be. I'd like to know.
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Visionary Tools]
#14913269 - 08/12/11 09:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Visionary Tools said:
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millzy said:
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Visionary Tools said:
here I was, thinking the gateway to philosophy (love of wisdom) was just asking the question: "Why?"
the gateway to philosophy is understanding the philosophical question: that of being. what is it to be? this is the set of problems philosophy seeks to address.
Here I was, thinking it was love of wisdom. Then again, it is wise to know what it is "to be". But I have not read not experienced for myself what it is to be. I'd like to know.
well philosophy does mean "love of wisdom", but the study of it tackles the problems of being. by "being" i mean the subjective experience of life.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14916052 - 08/13/11 02:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonoffox said:
i think the cynicism isn't materialism, but the reductionism that so often goes along with it. i'm an idealist, but i think if we could actually "see" the "stuff" of ultimate reality, we would then argue that we were each correct anyway. the fact of ultimate non-dualism forgets that we experience dualism (an illusion, perhaps, but illusions are honestly experienced). we just fail to understand that beneath it is some one thing. why do we pretend we will understand that one thing with any of our words at all? why would spirit or matter apply to something we are still so far from?
Well, true nondualism is neither idealist or materialist (though you could also say that both are correct).
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if you want to see reductionism at work, read sam harris. he recently declared that there is no free-will. why? because they looked for a mechanism in certain neurological cells and they weren't there. how this means there is not a thing we all feel to be real, based on the failure of one experiment, that is bad science. on top of that, he put his findings in an essay with a "tough shit" attitude. personally, as a fan of gurdjieff (and rush!!!) you have to consciously choose to have free will. it is a phenomenological issue, and i highly doubt you will find it in the chemistry, but in the content of the mind.
I don't think there's any answer to the free-will question, because it's based on incorrect premises (i.e. the assumption that there's even an agent to make or not make choices in the first place).
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millzy said:
i don't categorize materialism as cynical. i said that a misreading of him can sometimes lead to a cynical outlook. i admire nieitzsche's work.
The statement "cynical, materialistic outlook" clearly implies a connection between the two.
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explain how plato was "wrong" in your opinion.
The Realm of the Forms is a good place to start; a totally unnecessary supposition based entirely solving what Plato saw as "contradictions"- i.e. Socrates is taller than man X but shorter than man Y, therefore Socrates is both tall and short. He believed that since everything has similarly "contradictory" properties that material objects could not be real, but only shadows of a true, objective reality.
This is the idea of "essence before existence," the idea that there are ultimate, unchanging essences that project the fallible material world. Since I subscribe to existentialism (existence before essence), I think that the problem isn't with reality and material objects, but rather with our thinking about them. The supposed "contradictions" mentioned by Plato are the products of linguistic errors. The idea that "Forms" could exist is the result of linguistic, logical thinking overstepping its bounds; logic is a useful tool for navigating the world, but it's not all-powerful. There's no ultimate truth unless we make one for ourselves.
Not to mention, he thought that the Realm of the Forms was actually a place you went when you died, where you were able to live in the ultimate truth that you couldn't reach in this world. But since all of our ways of perceiving are physical, and all of our perception is based on the sorts of distinctions and contradictions that Plato thought made objects unreal, what does he think the realm of the forms would be like? Things are distinguished by their peculiarities; there's nothing that a perfect cat could look like without being a particular cat, and thus not ultimate and ideal cat of all cat-ness. We couldn't perceive the realm of the forms.
Not to mention, what has forms and what doesn't seems to be totally arbitrary. Is there a Form of the confused version of me? Is there a form of me not knowing that I'm in the realm of the Forms? If so, I could be in the Realm of Forms right now without noticing it. If not, why not?
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i say that if you want to learn how to do algebra, you must first learn how to add, subtract, divide and multiply. philosophy is not open to interpretation in the way that you frame it. while there is a lush variety of opinions debating its minutia, there are also very concrete concepts that all contemporary philosophy builds off of i.e. platonic idealism, which is not a materialist concept btw - see the mention of "the overman" (thank you to whoever corrected me on that by the way. "superman" is darwinian, i think). someone reading nietzsche with a lack of that piece of knowledge will misinterpret him. it isn't a matter of being stupid, it's just not having all the tools on hand necessary to understand it.
Obviously having an idea of the context Nietzsche was writing in (and to whom he's responding, i.e. Socrates or Schopenhauer) is useful. But I do think philosophy is entirely open to interpretation -- often, what philosophers say has implications far beyond what is explicitly stated, whether they recognize it or not.
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indeed, putting effort into anything is what turns most people off to certain subjects.
It's not even about putting effort into philosophy, it's about boring yourself when you don't necessarily have to.
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14916092 - 08/13/11 02:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
I don't think there's any answer to the free-will question, because it's based on incorrect premises (i.e. the assumption that there's even an agent to make or not make choices in the first place).
explain further, please. very curious but confused.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14916180 - 08/13/11 02:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Well, true nondualism is neither idealist or materialist (though you could also say that both are correct).
i think you and i are only having a semantic argument here...not discounting it, just noticing. language does matter, but we agree on more than we don't over this.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14916718 - 08/13/11 04:41 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
The statement "cynical, materialistic outlook" clearly implies a connection between the two, to me.
fixed.
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The Realm of the Forms is a good place to start; a totally unnecessary supposition based entirely solving what Plato saw as "contradictions"- i.e. Socrates is taller than man X but shorter than man Y, therefore Socrates is both tall and short. He believed that since everything has similarly "contradictory" properties that material objects could not be real, but only shadows of a true, objective reality.
This is the idea of "essence before existence," the idea that there are ultimate, unchanging essences that project the fallible material world. Since I subscribe to existentialism (existence before essence), I think that the problem isn't with reality and material objects, but rather with our thinking about them. The supposed "contradictions" mentioned by Plato are the products of linguistic errors. The idea that "Forms" could exist is the result of linguistic, logical thinking overstepping its bounds; logic is a useful tool for navigating the world, but it's not all-powerful.
i get a different reading of plato than this. to me, forms are just an analogy that describe what one of my professors explains as "the difference we can all agree on". if anything, plato saw how language can enslave us by fooling us into thinking that the words we are using to describe a thing are the thing itself. see the dialog 'euthyphro' for an example of this.
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Not to mention, what has forms and what doesn't seems to be totally arbitrary. Is there a Form of the confused version of me? Is there a form of me not knowing that I'm in the realm of the Forms? If so, I could be in the Realm of Forms right now without noticing it. If not, why not?
1. there is a form of confusion, not "a confused you".
2. we cannot exist in the realm of forms. our experience of reality lies entirely below the divided line according to plato.
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There's no ultimate truth unless we make one for ourselves.
this is a completely unverifiable assertion that is contrary to plato's logic. we cannot directly experience the ultimate truth so we cannot make it for ourselves. further, i think you're misunderstanding what "ultimate truth" implies, which is different than the personal truth that existentialism seeks. ultimate truth, at least from my understanding of the platonic model, is basically all that is. possessing a finite existence and a finite awareness of ultimate truth makes it logically impossible to fully apprehend.
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Not to mention, he thought that the Realm of the Forms was actually a place you went when you died, where you were able to live in the ultimate truth that you couldn't reach in this world. But since all of our ways of perceiving are physical, and all of our perception is based on the sorts of distinctions and contradictions that Plato thought made objects unreal, what does he think the realm of the forms would be like? Things are distinguished by their peculiarities; there's nothing that a perfect cat could look like without being a particular cat, and thus not ultimate and ideal cat of all cat-ness. We couldn't perceive the realm of the forms.
i'm unfamiliar with that aspect of the platonic model, but we are talking about the ancient world here. the dialogs were written nearly two thousand years before anyone figured out the earth is round. besides, i dissent with plato on certain points as well. the platonic model describes art as mere shadows below the divided line, where i view any type of creativity as a window into the world above the divided line. we cannot directly experience the realm of forms but creating anything puts us closer in touch with it, imo.
i think you may be approaching plato from a "nuts and bolts" approach, and i simply don't think that's how he intended to be read.
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Obviously having an idea of the context Nietzsche was writing in (and to whom he's responding, i.e. Socrates or Schopenhauer) is useful. But I do think philosophy is entirely open to interpretation -- often, what philosophers say has implications far beyond what is explicitly stated, whether they recognize it or not.
like i said, i think you're casting too wide of a net. there is a stark difference between a subjective interpretation of a text and misreading it.
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It's not even about putting effort into philosophy, it's about boring yourself when you don't necessarily have to.
my opinion still stands. it's your choice to be bored by the classical teachings (and rightfully so in some cases), but understanding their place in the greater picture of philosophy is imperative for gaining a comprehensive grasp on the subject. like i said in my earlier post, if you can't add, subtract, multiply and divide, you may think you're doing algebra but you're really just drawing a bunch of symbols.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (08/13/11 04:44 PM)
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14916755 - 08/13/11 04:47 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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also samurai, i'm interested in what your rebuttal to this statement is, if you didn't catch it.
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millzy said:
i also think that dualism is demonstrable by the one thing that arguably makes us human: our minds. we can determine where all of the chemical reactions occur that give rise to mind, but yet cannot point to where it resides in euclidean space. ultimately though, the two planes must intersect in some way at some, perhaps even quantum, level. otherwise there would no interaction. perhaps the problem between dualism vs. materialism is that neither label appropriately describes what's happening.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14917125 - 08/13/11 06:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
we cannot directly experience the realm of forms but creating anything puts us closer in touch with it, imo.
You actually believe the Realm of Forms exists?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid]
#14917170 - 08/13/11 06:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
You actually believe the Realm of Forms exists?
no, if you had actually read what i said, i said that i look at it as more of an analogy for the limitations of language, as did plato from my understanding of him. for plato, even utilizing the written word to author his dialogs was a very radical thing to do during a time when philosophy was moving off the street and becoming big business via the sophists, who had a heavy slant on rhetoric in their teachings.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14917203 - 08/13/11 06:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
Poid said:
You actually believe the Realm of Forms exists?
no, if you had actually read what i said, i said that i look at it as more of an analogy for the limitations of language, as did plato from my understanding of him.
I always thought he believed it was an actual realm that is separate from ours.
Theory of Forms
Quote:
Near the end of the Phaedo...Plato describes the world of Forms as a pristine region of the physical universe located above the surface of the Earth (Phd. 109a-111c).
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14917226 - 08/13/11 06:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
Quote:
Poid said:
You actually believe the Realm of Forms exists?
no, if you had actually read what i said...
I did read what you said..you said that the Realm of Forms is an analogy for the limitations of language, then you said that we can never directly experience it and that creating something puts us closer in touch with it.
What makes you think we can never directly experience the limitations of language? How does creating something put us closer in touch with the limitations of language?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (08/13/11 07:00 PM)
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Visionary Tools
Registered: 06/23/07
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14917251 - 08/13/11 07:00 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
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Visionary Tools said:
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millzy said:
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Visionary Tools said:
here I was, thinking the gateway to philosophy (love of wisdom) was just asking the question: "Why?"
the gateway to philosophy is understanding the philosophical question: that of being. what is it to be? this is the set of problems philosophy seeks to address.
Here I was, thinking it was love of wisdom. Then again, it is wise to know what it is "to be". But I have not read not experienced for myself what it is to be. I'd like to know.
well philosophy does mean "love of wisdom", but the study of it tackles the problems of being. by "being" i mean the subjective experience of life.
I thought about studying philosophy but it all sounds like a wild goose chase. I don't want to be flippant, but at the same time, I think any philosophical insight comes from introspection. I had a moment of that four days ago, walking from a friends house to my own, it was warm, I was dressed in nothing but shorts and a tshirt, walking over pavements and roads barefoot. My friends have seen me do it and say "Oh but what about glass."
Yes, I'm sure if I stepped on some that' be bad. But I didn't, and I haven't. And that walk from his house to my own was a plesant experience. The scene was yellow from the sodium lamps, the night was so warm that it was plesant walking in my clothes, and more than that, I felt my life was affirmed.
He's a good friend, very much awake, tells me things I didn't know and let me borrow this book that talks about guardians of ancient wisdom, which was funny as I had ordered a book called "in search of the hidden masters" which also talked about it. Convergance? I was looking at the books on his bookshelf. I asked if I could borrow one as I ran out of books to read. He hands me one out of his bag and says "you might be interested in this."
Now, I don't really have anything to say about "exist-ence-ism" but I do get curious about how people get all thinky about things that I don't think matter. They do matter, otherwise people wouldn't think about them, but they do not matter to me.
Funny how life has a way of steering certain events. I may never be lucky financially but is that so bad? Materials won't make me happy. I know that. I know that what makes me happy is friends, good food, getting high and having a laugh. A yacht would be lovely, but it's not a friend.
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid] 1
#14917350 - 08/13/11 07:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
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millzy said:
we cannot directly experience the realm of forms but creating anything puts us closer in touch with it, imo.
You actually believe the Realm of Forms exists?
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Poid said:
Quote:
millzy said:
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Poid said:
You actually believe the Realm of Forms exists?
no, if you had actually read what i said, i said that i look at it as more of an analogy for the limitations of language, as did plato from my understanding of him.
I always thought he believed it was an actual realm that is separate from ours.
Theory of Forms
Quote:
Near the end of the Phaedo...Plato describes the world of Forms as a pristine region of the physical universe located above the surface of the Earth (Phd. 109a-111c).
he did believe the realm of forms existed...but i also mistook plato to be metaphorical in this instance when i first read it (many, many years ago) if only because it is batshit insane if it isn't.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14917367 - 08/13/11 07:30 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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you have to remember where plato was historically...most of what he said was wrong, but he was asking the right questions...that is worth a lot.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid]
#14917701 - 08/13/11 08:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
I did read what you said..you said that the Realm of Forms is an analogy for the limitations of language, then you said that we can never directly experience it and that creating something puts us closer in touch with it.
What makes you think we can never directly experience the limitations of language? How does creating something put us closer in touch with the limitations of language?
okay, i know what you're up to. i'm cranky, i'm sick and i'm working all night so i'm just going to give you what you want and feed into your bullshit.
first off, you need to put plato down (or close the wiki page, which is most likely the extent of your knowledge of plato) and just start with learning how to understand what you're reading. i never said that we can't experience the limitations of language. that's ridiculous. much of our waking life lies in the realm of the ineffable and language constantly hinders our ability to effectively communicate. what i said is that we can't directly experience ultimate reality (in the platonic sense), but we can come closer to it by expressing ourselves creatively. creative expression is, to me, a manifestation of our self, which is the purest level, if you will, of our mind/ego system and thus is closer to what plato would call the divided line and the realm of forms beyond, which is contrary to the platonic model. the source of this disconnect is that plato wrote thousands of years prior to art being made for the sake of art.
and perhaps my understanding of plato isn't complete, but i don't really categorize his views as "beliefs". to me the divided line, forms and "the good" are all just labels used to describe things that are extra-mental - pure ideas that are beyond our capacity to know but within our grasp to contemplate through their essence. to me platonic idealism is more of a perspective than a set of rigid doctrines like religion.
edited for clarity.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (08/13/11 09:04 PM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14917754 - 08/13/11 09:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
i never said that we can't experience the limitations of language. that's ridiculous.
You said the Realm of Forms is an analogy for the limitations of language, and that we can't directly experience it..if the Realm of Forms is an analogy for the limitations of language, and we can't directly experience it, then it follows that we can't directly experience the limitations of language. This shouldn't be too complicated for you to understand.
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millzy said:
what i said is that we can't directly experience ultimate reality (in the platonic sense)...
No, you said, and I quote, "we cannot directly experience the realm of forms".
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millzy said:
first off, you need to put plato down (or close the wiki page, which is most likely the extent of your knowledge of plato) and just start with learning how to understand what you're reading.
I have learned about Plato from sources other than Wikipedia, and understand exactly what I'm reading..you, however, can't even seem to remember what it is you are typing.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (08/13/11 09:14 PM)
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Mnboardin
Stranger
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 767
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14917758 - 08/13/11 09:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Start with Plato.
Then study Aristotle (Heidegger recommends for ten to fifteen years).
. . . and learn Attic Greek.
I agree with you on those points.
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Edited by Mnboardin (08/13/11 09:09 PM)
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14917764 - 08/13/11 09:10 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
and perhaps my understanding of plato isn't complete, but i don't really categorize his views as "beliefs". to me the divided line, forms and "the good" are all just labels used to describe things that are extra-mental - pure ideas that are beyond our capacity to know but within our grasp to contemplate through their essence. to me platonic idealism is more of a perspective than a set of rigid doctrines like religion.
read some neo-platonism...you would love it...especially pseudo-dionysius. takes plato similarly...your "fault" isn't unique. our friend augustine was a neoplatonist as well, but of the un-mystical kind (find god in the church, not in yourself...fuck him, as i've said).
to my memory, the republic leaves the forms more vague than phaedo...which is first? which is more "socrates?" damn...this conversation takes me back...thanks to all involved.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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Mnboardin
Stranger
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 767
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14917784 - 08/13/11 09:14 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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The realm of forms is not batshit insane: read some of Pythagora's writings or writings about Pythagoras along with Euclid's elements if you know nothing of geometry or mathematics in general.
There is a reason that inscribed over the entrance to Plato's academy was "Let none who no nothing of Geometry enter" or something to that effect.
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Mnboardin
Stranger
Registered: 04/01/09
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14917791 - 08/13/11 09:15 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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What is life?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Mnboardin]
#14917795 - 08/13/11 09:16 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I find the writing style of ancient philosophers to be a bit distasteful.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Mnboardin
Stranger
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14917834 - 08/13/11 09:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I suspect that the very possibility for materialism has a lot to do with the mood of the being who postulates it.
A duality between necessity and freedom still exists. It is a, if not the, central philosophical problem as well.
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid]
#14917994 - 08/13/11 10:01 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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yeah, dionysius and plotinus are both on my list of people to read ox. i wish i could find a school that teaches a class on neo-platonism.
i think the dialogs came first, but i'm not certain of that. it took plato 40 years to write all of them.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Mnboardin]
#14919554 - 08/14/11 07:22 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mnboardin said:
The realm of forms is not batshit insane: read some of Pythagora's writings or writings about Pythagoras along with Euclid's elements if you know nothing of geometry or mathematics in general.
There is a reason that inscribed over the entrance to Plato's academy was "Let none who no nothing of Geometry enter" or something to that effect.
lol wut?
plato's the realm of forms has nothing to do with pythagoras. pythagoras was the man, so i don't know where this defensiveness is coming from.
plato's idea about the forms didn't happen in a vacuum...it developed and changed and he even self criticized it. i think we are discussing the phaedo quote that was presented earlier to be specific.
Edit: pythagoras was a mystic as well as a mathematician. the "batshitness" of the realm of the forms is the deductive reasoning plato uses to get there. i am advaita, but i don't get there using reasoning, but through mystical experience. that conversation doesn't belong in the philosophy forum, but in the spirituality/mysticism forum.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
Edited by sonoffox (08/14/11 08:49 AM)
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14923353 - 08/14/11 10:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Perhaps you are right, that Plato's attempt to derive th forms through reasoning was failed from the start.
But to describe the role of forms in thought - do you think that attempt failed as well?
This was, of course, the same goal of pythagoras, who did not just meditate but discovered, and communicated
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millzy
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
#14923773 - 08/15/11 12:35 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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i think plato's relation to pythagoras is what i was referring to earlier about forms regarding shapes in nature. we can contemplate the existence of a perfect circle but yet none exist in material reality. same goes for our notions of perfection i.e. the "platonic friendship", the mythological notion of christ, a perfect human being, or our even our idealized (and unhealthy imo) standards for the "perfect relationship". none of these things have ever, nor will ever exist. platonism is so deeply engrained in the bedrock of our culture it's just how we tend to think.
and poid, i'm going to get a response to your question. i'm sick as hell right now and having to work, so just please give me some time.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (08/15/11 12:36 AM)
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14923821 - 08/15/11 12:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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No biggy. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Noteworthy
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14924297 - 08/15/11 03:48 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
i think plato's relation to pythagoras is what i was referring to earlier about forms regarding shapes in nature. we can contemplate the existence of a perfect circle but yet none exist in material reality. same goes for our notions of perfection i.e. the "platonic friendship", the mythological notion of christ, a perfect human being, or our even our idealized (and unhealthy imo) standards for the "perfect relationship". none of these things have ever, nor will ever exist. platonism is so deeply engrained in the bedrock of our culture it's just how we tend to think.
and poid, i'm going to get a response to your question. i'm sick as hell right now and having to work, so just please give me some time.
btw it is 'plutonic' friendship
though, dont you think it is worth distinguishing the perfect circle's existance in the mind from its existance in the world? I would say that no concepts trully exist in the world, they are all mental objects that we create to help understand the world at certain scales.
eg. the circle does exist 'in the world' when you consider a well drawn circle at a certain resolution, but not when you zoom in. similarly, all scientific laws exist at certain scales, and the issue at hand for many scientists is to try to find a perfect law describing every event at any scale. will it ever exist? who knows...
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
#14924506 - 08/15/11 06:03 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Noteworthy said:
Quote:
millzy said:
i think plato's relation to pythagoras is what i was referring to earlier about forms regarding shapes in nature. we can contemplate the existence of a perfect circle but yet none exist in material reality. same goes for our notions of perfection i.e. the "platonic friendship", the mythological notion of christ, a perfect human being, or our even our idealized (and unhealthy imo) standards for the "perfect relationship". none of these things have ever, nor will ever exist. platonism is so deeply engrained in the bedrock of our culture it's just how we tend to think.
and poid, i'm going to get a response to your question. i'm sick as hell right now and having to work, so just please give me some time.
btw it is 'plutonic' friendship
No it isn't:
Platonic love
Quote:
Platonic love is a chaste and strong type of love that is non-sexual.
plutonic
Quote:
formed by solidification of magma deep within the earth and crystalline throughout <plutonic rock>
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Blondell_Letrange
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid] 1
#14924520 - 08/15/11 06:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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I thought maybe he was going for irony?
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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i've had a few plutonic love affairs...very volcanic.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14924735 - 08/15/11 07:50 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Were they solid, though?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Noteworthy
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid]
#14925035 - 08/15/11 09:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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nope im just wrong... i mean... just trying to test you...
Actually I just thought it wasnt 'Platonic'... which it isnt...in the sense of the context here. So I assumed it was plutonic. But I made an ass of you and me
I do find this interesting though. I didnt realise its connections to Plato before
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
#14925200 - 08/15/11 10:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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On further contemplation I totally embrace the notion of Platonic love stemming from Plato, I think Ive been considering a different notion, however, and using the term platonic love in a different way
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
#14925423 - 08/15/11 11:11 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
btw it is 'plutonic' friendship
Quote:
Noteworthy said:
though, dont you think it is worth distinguishing the perfect circle's existance in the mind from its existance in the world? I would say that no concepts trully exist in the world, they are all mental objects that we create to help understand the world at certain scales.
well that was my (and plato's) point with the use of the realm of forms. for plato these existed in an extra-mental space, beyond mind, and we can never fully know the nature of their existence but are able to contemplate it and know their essence. this is also the classical answer to how the concept of god works too btw.
Quote:
the circle does exist 'in the world' when you consider a well drawn circle at a certain resolution, but not when you zoom in. similarly, all scientific laws exist at certain scales, and the issue at hand for many scientists is to try to find a perfect law describing every event at any scale. will it ever exist? who knows...
i'm talking about a perfect circle here, not a well drawn one. i'm not sure how m-theory applies to this.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (08/15/11 11:12 AM)
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14925461 - 08/15/11 11:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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You are right, the platonic realm is beyond mind, but we access it through our mind (well we obviously dont access it through nature since they dont exist).
A well drawn circle will form a perfect circle in your mind ... where the form is being apprehended.
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
#14925499 - 08/15/11 11:28 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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eh, kind of. it works like this, from my understanding.
the good
forms
-----------------------the divided line
mind
shadows of the forms
shadows of the shadows of forms (art) - i think this is incorrect btw
according to plato, our reality is bifurcated by the divided line and through the light of the good the forms send their shadows down into our minds and material existence.
that's a pretty basic explanation though. guys like plotinus, who ox mentioned, expanded greatly on this model. i'd love to study plotinus, but i'd prefer to do it formally b/c it's a big piece to bite off from what i understand. grad school type stuff. i'd like to study heidegger's "being and time" in a similar setting as well.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14925548 - 08/15/11 11:36 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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Right, well thats a good explanation.
I am thinking that although the reality is a shadow of the forms, as according to plato, the mind is still apprehending the forms. Indeed Plato says the role of the philosopher is to keep track of these forms, no? Sometimes we think about them and other times we construct them and see them, as in geometry.
And the mind would be able to aprehend the perfect circle in an image when zoomed out. not whilst zoomed in.
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
#14925583 - 08/15/11 11:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago) |
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no, the forms are there regardless. the philosopher's role is to examine the problems of being.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14929777 - 08/16/11 03:44 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
eh, kind of. it works like this, from my understanding.
the good
forms
-----------------------the divided line
mind
shadows of the forms
shadows of the shadows of forms (art) - i think this is incorrect btw
according to plato, our reality is bifurcated by the divided line and through the light of the good the forms send their shadows down into our minds and material existence.
that's a pretty basic explanation though. guys like plotinus, who ox mentioned, expanded greatly on this model. i'd love to study plotinus, but i'd prefer to do it formally b/c it's a big piece to bite off from what i understand. grad school type stuff. i'd like to study heidegger's "being and time" in a similar setting as well.
btw poid, does this clear up anything for you? i'll try to elaborate if you need me to on this position.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14929795 - 08/16/11 03:57 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
btw poid, does this clear up anything for you? i'll try to elaborate if you need me to on this position.
I perfectly understand the position..I don't really particularly like Plato's philosophy, just so you know. In fact, I'm not fond of any ancient philosophers, their style of writing generally tends to be unclear and annoying. I am more gravitated towards philosophers who are able to substantiate particular claims than imaginative asshats who like to mentally masturbate with their entirely uninsteresting idiosyncratic view of the universe.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (08/16/11 04:14 AM)
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid]
#14929819 - 08/16/11 04:24 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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i dissent from plato at certain points myself. i do, however, think that understanding platonic idealism and aristotelian logic, at least from a basic standpoint, are imperative to understanding how we westerners think.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Poid
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14929862 - 08/16/11 04:52 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
i dissent from plato at certain points myself.
I disagree with many, perhaps most of his points. I do, however, believe he made a few important points.
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
i do, however, think that understanding platonic idealism and aristotelian logic, at least from a basic standpoint, are imperative to understanding how we westerners think.
I think understanding history, in general, can give one a better overview of the present. I don't, however, think that buying into ancient ideas just because they sound "cool" or "far out" is very wise..I think the purpose of philosophy is to discover the truth, not to mentally masturbate. Many ancient philosophers seem to mainly comment on their own idiosyncratic concoction of how things are, they hardly seem to logically analyze particular claims by their intrinsic merits.
It's not necessary to be highly educated in Platonic idealism and Aristotelian logic in order to be able to ascertain the truth (ascertaining the truth is the main purpose of philosophy IMO)..one can do that by utilizing contemporary logic skills. That contemporary Western logic was highly influenced by ancient philosophy is inconsequential..IMO, contemporary Western logic is a much more effective tool for finding the truth than ancient logic. Ancient logic is hardly relevant to today's issues, and its only utility is in assisting people in understanding the roots of contemporary logic.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid]
#14930002 - 08/16/11 05:48 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
millzy said:
i dissent from plato at certain points myself.
I disagree with many, perhaps most of his points. I do, however, believe he made a few important points.
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
i do, however, think that understanding platonic idealism and aristotelian logic, at least from a basic standpoint, are imperative to understanding how we westerners think.
I think understanding history, in general, can give one a better overview of the present. I don't, however, think that buying into ancient ideas just because they sound "cool" or "far out" is very wise..I think the purpose of philosophy is to discover the truth, not to mentally masturbate. Many ancient philosophers seem to mainly comment on their own idiosyncratic concoction of how things are, they hardly seem to logically analyze particular claims by their intrinsic merits.
It's not necessary to be highly educated in Platonic idealism and Aristotelian logic in order to be able to ascertain the truth (ascertaining the truth is the main purpose of philosophy IMO)..one can do that by utilizing contemporary logic skills. That contemporary Western logic was highly influenced by ancient philosophy is inconsequential..IMO, contemporary Western logic is a much more effective tool for finding the truth than ancient logic. Ancient logic is hardly relevant to today's issues, and its only utility is in assisting people in understanding the roots of contemporary logic.
well, i didn't say it is necessary to become an "expert" in plato and aristotle. i'm hardly neither. i've read a few books, taken a few classes and paid attention and written a few papers. that's it. i'm not by any means special, nor do i tout myself to be some great philosophical mind. i just think that understanding the basics of how this stuff really works is beneficial to seeing how the contemporary stuff relates, and more importantly, how we think as a culture. that is just my opinion though. take it or leave it, but for me, studying plato has opened up a whole new understanding of the western reality, language, and my place in all of it.
aristotle is who i'd like to aim to get a better handle of next. i think inductive/deductive reasoning, while very useful in studying certain aspects of the hard sciences, and presenting arguments in codified law, is very limiting when applied to the human experience. there is a very obvious contradiction when applying aristotelian logic to, for example, individuals. i am a son, i'm a brother, i'm a friend, i'm a client, and many other things, so which of these is true? in aristotelian terms, from my understanding, only one of these things can be ultimately true, when in reality i am all of these things. but this mind set is what animates the western consciousness. learning how it works is like getting a cheat code because you can learn how to circumvent it. while i may respect plato for his contributions, i more want to understand aristotle in order to refute and move in between the narrowness of thinking that i'm confronted with on a daily basis.
and when it comes to aristotelian metaphysics, the concept of the "unmoved mover", or "first cause", yeah, that's a bunch of horseshit to me too. at least at this point in my studies.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14932695 - 08/16/11 04:33 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
i just think that understanding the basics of how this stuff really works is beneficial to seeing how the contemporary stuff relates, and more importantly, how we think as a culture. that is just my opinion though. take it or leave it...
I agree with you.
Quote:
millzy said:
...but for me, studying plato has opened up a whole new understanding of the western reality, language, and my place in all of it.
I'm currently reading a philosophy textbook which explains the history of philosophy, and it's done the same for me.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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NetDiver
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14932844 - 08/16/11 05:05 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
millzy said:
1. there is a form of confusion, not "a confused you".
2. we cannot exist in the realm of forms. our experience of reality lies entirely below the divided line according to plato.
Alright, the rest of your post is full of contradictions stemming mainly from the last point (i.e. you both claim that Plato intended the Forms as a metaphor, and claim that our experience of reality "lies entirely below the divided line," which strongly implies that it is a metaphysical doctrine). You also totally overlooked Plato's belief that the realm of the Forms is like Heaven, a perfect place that we go after we die -- as is expressed by Socrates in the Phaedo.
Also, don't pull the whole "it only implies that to you" thing again, as your statements make clear implications to anybody who understands English, and it just seems like a desperate attempt to backpedal.
In your assertion of point #1, that there would be no form of a "confused me," you overlook my entire point in bringing up that possibility:
Quote:
Not to mention, what has forms and what doesn't seems to be totally arbitrary.
How did Plato determine what had a form and what didn't? He would definitely say that I had a form (again, in the Phaedo, Socrates clearly says that the soul is the form of a person and goes to the Realm of Forms upon death), and that confusion has a form, but what am I, apart from all the conflicting emotions that I feel (such as confusion)?
Also, about your argument for dualism --
Quote:
we can determine where all of the chemical reactions occur that give rise to mind, but yet cannot point to where it resides in euclidean space.
By the physicalist doctrine, the place in Euclidean space that all the chemical reactions occur is exactly where mind resides. You have provided no evidence for your presupposition that mind is anything other than those reactions.
Actually, your statement is based on circular logic.
Here's your argument:
1. Science can find no material point at which mind is.
2. Therefore, mind is not matter.
And here's your argument flipped around:
1. Mind is not matter
2. Therefore, science can find no material point at which mind is.
Edited by NetDiver (08/16/11 05:24 PM)
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14934425 - 08/16/11 10:14 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
Alright, the rest of your post is full of contradictions stemming mainly from the last point (i.e. you both claim that Plato intended the Forms as a metaphor, and claim that our experience of reality "lies entirely below the divided line," which strongly implies that it is a metaphysical doctrine). You also totally overlooked Plato's belief that the realm of the Forms is like Heaven, a perfect place that we go after we die -- as is expressed by Socrates in the Phaedo.
phaedo 114 d, gma grube translation
this is socrates speaking.
Quote:
no sensible man would insist that these things are the way as i have described them, but i think it is fitting for a man to risk the belief - for the risk is a noble one - that is, or something like this, is true about our souls and their dwelling places
socrates is clearly pointing out that the language his society's mythology uses to describe the afterlife is a metaphor. he also alludes to the merit of religious faith. i don't think anyone could argue against plato's model being metaphysical.
Quote:
Also, don't pull the whole "it only implies that to you" thing again, as your statements make clear implications to anybody who understands English, and it just seems like a desperate attempt to backpedal.
ox said something to the effect of the reductionism that accompanies a misinterpretation of materialism often leads to cynicism, which i agreed with prior to your response. so again, that was your personal interpretation and attempt to go out of your way to be offended by what was said. apparently, i touched a nerve.
Quote:
In your assertion of point #1, that there would be no form of a "confused me," you overlook my entire point in bringing up that possibility:
Not to mention, what has forms and what doesn't seems to be totally arbitrary.
How did Plato determine what had a form and what didn't? He would definitely say that I had a form (again, in the Phaedo, Socrates clearly says that the soul is the form of a person and goes to the Realm of Forms upon death), and that confusion has a form, but what am I, apart from all the conflicting emotions that I feel (such as confusion)?
phaedo 79 d gma grube translation
this is during a discussion between simmias, cebes and socrates on the day prior to his execution. this is after the realm of forms and the existence of a soul has been established.
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but when the soul investigates by itself (meaning after it has been separated from the body through death) it passes into the realm of what is pure, ever existing, immortal, and unchanging (this is how plato defined forms btw), and being akin to this, it always stays with it whenever it is by itself and can do so; it ceases to stray and remains in touch as it is in touch of things of the same kind, and its experience then is what is called wisdom?
altogether very true and well said, socrates, he said
what i get from this is, during life the soul is fooled and enslaved by the senses and only has finite wisdom, which enables it to take on other forms (i.e. confusion, anger etc). after death the soul assumes the form of absolute wisdom by shedding the senses and the body.
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Also, about your argument for dualism --
By the physicalist doctrine, the place in Euclidean space that all the chemical reactions occur is exactly where mind resides.
i'd be interested in seeing proof of this.
also, on the subject of proof, i'm defending (some) of plato's model, which again i have only personally defined as a perspective framed in metaphor. thus i do not have to provide any proof, just an answer to your arguments by showing you the rhetorical soundness of the model.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
Edited by millzy (08/16/11 10:17 PM)
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14934482 - 08/16/11 10:24 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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when people call "backpedaling", what they are showing is that they want to "win" the argument, rather than get to the bottom of the matter. just saying.
if a person intentionally backpedals, why is that an invalid response? even when a person doesn't admit it, isn't the truth of the debate more focused? what ever happened to the dialectic?
also...mind is not matter, it is the information stored in the pattern of matter. the truly awe inspiring thing about mind arises out of complexity. science will not be able to truly study phenomenological experience until incredible new techniques of experimentation are discovered. ones possible, but ones that would today be "synonymous with magic" to paraphrase clarke. dennett's mind machine is far away.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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tim.johnson717
Stranger
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
#14934564 - 08/16/11 10:44 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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millzy said:
i see a lot of people recommending neitzsche on here for beginners, and as someone who read some of the same stuff in my younger days, i'd like to throw around an idea. basically, i think starting out with this stuff, especially as a younger person without as much life experience or little, if any, background studying philosophy, tends to kind of fuel this cynical, materialist world view. and i think his ripping criticism of christianity, while dead on in the context of the brand of christianity he is railing againgst, also make his work attractive to young people wanting to buck the system, so to speak. i also think that the greater message of his work, that being that we are ultimately responsible for what we get out of life, is often overlooked.
this isn't to say that neitzsche and his ilk's work isn't without merit. quite the contrary. but after having lived a little and formally studied some of the classical stuff, i tend to interpret nietzche differently. to me existentialism is a philosophy hope and personal empowerment and not one of bitter, aimless nihlism.
i'm by no means an expert of philosophy, but my personal advice to anyone seeking to learn more is to start with the two guys whose ideas constitute a considerable portion of the ideological bedrock that informs the western reality; plato and aristotle. getting at least a basic grasp of both of these guys will do wonders for when you're ready to jump in with both feet with more contemporary stuff that has been built from the classical models.
idk, just rambling. i love philosophy and would like it if more people truly understood it, and starting out with, what is in some cases, grad school level texts is most likely going to lead to some pretty crucial misunderstandings.
thoughts?
I think those who just begin to study philosophy ought first of all go through some good comprehensive textbook, which doesn't advocate views of the certain philosophical school, but just explains various teachings. Of course, author of such textbook has his own beliefs and prejudices (as any of us has), which influence his point of view, but usually such subjectivity isn't very pronounced.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: tim.johnson717]
#14934582 - 08/16/11 10:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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tim.johnson717 said:
I think those who just begin to study philosophy ought first of all go through some good comprehensive textbook...
That's what I'm doing ATM..I'm a little bit more than halfway done with it, and have greatly enjoyed what I've learned so far. It has totally broadened my perspective on lots of issues.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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tim.johnson717
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: tim.johnson717]
#14934846 - 08/16/11 11:30 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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And later on one could follow the way how philosophy evolved: from ancient Greek philiosphy to up to modern thinkers.
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tim.johnson717
Stranger
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Poid]
#14934899 - 08/16/11 11:38 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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tim.johnson717 said:
I think those who just begin to study philosophy ought first of all go through some good comprehensive textbook...
That's what I'm doing ATM..I'm a little bit more than halfway done with it, and have greatly enjoyed what I've learned so far. It has totally broadened my perspective on lots of issues.
Broadening of the perspective is one of the major benefits which you get when you study philosophy. Diogenes lived in a tub, proving how little a man needs; nowadays philosophy helps us to get out of the closed tube (I mean our ignorance).
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14934914 - 08/16/11 11:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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millzy said:
i'd be interested in seeing proof of this.
You're the one making a claim that posits unnecessary entities over and above those required to explain observations. The burden of proof is on you.
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also, on the subject of proof, i'm defending (some) of plato's model, which again i have only personally defined as a perspective framed in metaphor. thus i do not have to provide any proof, just an answer to your arguments by showing you the rhetorical soundness of the model.
You've argued for it both as a metaphysical theory and as metaphorical. I don't know which I should be responding to.
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sonoffox said:
also...mind is not matter, it is the information stored in the pattern of matter.
Let's take a moment to take reductionism to its logical conclusion. Mind is "information stored in the pattern of matter." But what is matter? You might go on to name atoms, and various subatomic particles, like electrons, neutrons, protons, quarks, etc. But what are those made of? In the end, we reach the conclusion of either a downwards infinite regression, or the tautology that quarks are "made out of quark." So what have we learned? We've reached only an arbitrarily precise mathematical description of empirical observations, which can be used to predict the results of future experiments, which are also empirical observations.
Essentially, my argument is that it's observation all the way down, which is the true "substance" of reality -- that "matter" is what we use to build a model of our observations, and that "mind" is the sense of observation itself. Any division at all between mind and matter leads to an infinite regress of mind-within-body-within-mind (because 'mind' is a specific physical pattern, which is really just a mathematical description made by a mind, which is a specific physical pattern... etc). Brain states correlate with certain behaviors, but to draw a line and say "these brain states demonstrate the existence of a mind, where as these do not" is arbitrary.
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the truly awe inspiring thing about mind arises out of complexity. science will not be able to truly study phenomenological experience until incredible new techniques of experimentation are discovered. ones possible, but ones that would today be "synonymous with magic" to paraphrase clarke. dennett's mind machine is far away.
The point of Dennett's mind machine was to show that inter-subjective comparisons were not possible even in principle -- that such a machine would be useless. So "far away" is right. 
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14935031 - 08/17/11 12:08 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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i wasn't referring to the thought experiment earlier, but to dennett's statement that he foresaw massive computer models of the consciousness that could be studied in a lab. i never saw that as reductionist, though some have, and dennett even seems defensive about it.
you are correct that the idealism/materialism draw into one thing, (didn't we say this elsewhere?) but what i was trying to point out is that the idealist model allows for many of the things left out of a simple materialist model (them still being the same model at a scale) like meaning and other subjective entities. most people who react poorly to physicalism (i'll use that word because materialism is prejudicial) perceive that subjectivity is left out of the system altogether.
dennett's brilliance is that he is remarkably synchretic. physicalism would bother a lot less people if they understood emergence.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14935468 - 08/17/11 02:15 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
sonoffox said:
i wasn't referring to the thought experiment earlier, but to dennett's statement that he foresaw massive computer models of the consciousness that could be studied in a lab. i never saw that as reductionist, though some have, and dennett even seems defensive about it.
Ah, my bad.
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you are correct that the idealism/materialism draw into one thing, (didn't we say this elsewhere?) but what i was trying to point out is that the idealist model allows for many of the things left out of a simple materialist model (them still being the same model at a scale) like meaning and other subjective entities. most people who react poorly to physicalism (i'll use that word because materialism is prejudicial) perceive that subjectivity is left out of the system altogether.
I agree that people seem to think that meaning is left out of the picture in the physicalist explanation, but it doesn't necessarily need to be so. I think you get that, though, so I won't harp on it.
But yeah, non-duality is non-duality. Whether you call it physicalism, idealism, or flamingoism doesn't make much difference. "It" is what it is.
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14935743 - 08/17/11 04:59 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Samurai Drifter said:
You're the one making a claim that posits unnecessary entities over and above those required to explain observations. The burden of proof is on you.
what entities are unnecessary? i've only used what is contained within plato's writings and model. further there's nothing to be "proven" in the sense of verifiable, hard data regarding plato's metaphysics. it's a perspective, one that i find to be rhetorically sound, logical, and ultimately useful. i've answered your arguments to the best of my ability. if you don't like it, or you don't get it, then stick with what resonates with you.
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You've argued for it both as a metaphysical theory and as metaphorical. I don't know which I should be responding to.
both, because from my reading of plato they are one in the same. see passages from phaedo and everything else i've posted in this thread.
it seems to me that all you're really wanting is to take possession of this argument.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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sonoffox
Make-believe Saint
Registered: 08/08/11
Posts: 238
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
#14936252 - 08/17/11 09:23 AM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Samurai Drifter said:
I agree that people seem to think that meaning is left out of the picture in the physicalist explanation, but it doesn't necessarily need to be so. I think you get that, though, so I won't harp on it.
see, i think this is a very important discussion. lets face it, emergence and complexity and evolutionary processes other than species selection (such as neuronal development) are painfully misunderstood by many people...i know because i was one of them. i really wish dennett was more well known in popular culture. hell, i went to school for religious studies and a minor in philosophy but never heard of the man until i left. (i got into dennett after seeing him on a dutch documentary with oliver sacks, stephen toulmin, stephen gould and a couple of other contemporary thinkers. fucking amazing program, but lost...i've searched for ages.)
i always stick with an idealist model at this scale because it works for me, seeing that i come to philosophy from the humanities angle. those that come from a scientific angle would benefit from a physicalist model. that they are one and the same at a scale can be known if people would come to recognize perspectivism as a pragmatic way of thinking. i don't have to deny physicalism to focus on subjective reality, i just need to ignore it until it is relevant.
while some are frightened by the sciences destroying mystical ways of thinking, i think that is an incorrect perspective. science is approaching the mystical. that science requires a certain vocabulary is also frightening, as the mystical side wants to say "hey, we have been studying these phenomena for ages, so we should be selecting the lexicon!" but see? it is semantics. why should anyone care?
honestly, i feel that dawkins scares away a lot of people with a subjective perspective. not by his facts, but by his demeanor. dennett, who said "yeah, we have souls, but they are made of neurons," is inviting the subjective side back in. he says, in a sense: don't worry, we aren't bursting your bubbles, we are just recognizing them as bubbles, measuring them and letting you guys deal with the content until we have better tools.
just my two cents.
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"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt
"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing
"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi
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millzy
Registered: 05/12/10
Posts: 12,409
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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
#14947210 - 08/19/11 12:10 PM (12 years, 7 months ago) |
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okay fox, i can finally get to to augustine now. i think his writings, and the writings of ancient bible scholars like him, are very crucial now at this point in history where the death cult of fundamentalist "evangelical" christianity has gained an alarming amount of political sway, especially in this country. guys like agustine would be essential in presenting scriptural arguments refuting what in my opinion amounts to a grotesque representation of the tradition. the only way the battle, and i do think this is a battle, against christian fundamentalism will be won is by the use of scriptural argument.
militant atheism, while imo is an understandable response to christian fundamentalism, simply will not be the way in which this sect of people will be banished to the fringe of the tradition where they belong. while i respect their work, we really don't need guys like hitchens or dawkins. we need another alan watts. we need another joseph campbell. what we really need are a good set of teachers who are at the forefront of christian thought teaching this stuff the way it should be taught.
at a job i held previously, i met a girl who was studying to be a "christian counselor". we got on the subject of school and i started to talk to her about what she's studying (psychology etc.). i asked her about philosophy such as plato, aristotle, thomas aquinas and she hadn't read any of them and was less than a semester from completing a four year degree! how can you teach christianity without teaching thomas fucking aquinas? that's like getting a degree in music history and not even touching on mozart. and this person is going to hang a degree on her wall touting that she is not only an expert in counseling but also in the christian tradition. and the cycle continues. it's time we put a stop to it i say.
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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger
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