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existentialism - the gateway philosophy?
    #14900239 -

i see a lot of people recommending neitzsche on here for beginners, and as someone who read some of the same stuff in my younger days, i'd like to throw around an idea. basically, i think starting out with this stuff, especially as a younger person without as much life experience or little, if any, background studying philosophy, tends to kind of fuel this cynical, materialist world view. and i think his ripping criticism of christianity, while dead on in the context of the brand of christianity he is railing againgst, also make his work attractive to young people wanting to buck the system, so to speak. i also think that the greater message of his work, that being that we are ultimately responsible for what we get out of life, is often overlooked.

this isn't to say that neitzsche and his ilk's work isn't without merit. quite the contrary. but after having lived a little and formally studied some of the classical stuff, i tend to interpret nietzche differently. to me existentialism is a philosophy hope and personal empowerment and not one of bitter, aimless nihlism.

i'm by no means an expert of philosophy, but my personal advice to anyone seeking to learn more is to start with the two guys whose ideas constitute a considerable portion of the ideological bedrock that informs the western reality; plato and aristotle. getting at least a basic grasp of both of these guys will do wonders for when you're ready to jump in with both feet with more contemporary stuff that has been built from the classical models.

idk, just rambling. i love philosophy and would like it if more people truly understood it, and starting out with, what is in some cases, grad school level texts is most likely going to lead to some pretty crucial misunderstandings.

thoughts?


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14900275 -

I'd start with Alfred E, Neuman and Firesign Theater.  You'd be good to go.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14900416 -

I remember finding Thus Spoke Zarathustra to be an inspirational book on first reading, though at that point I was into my mid-twenties and largely past the preceding bitterness, though still an aimless wanderer.  I read most of it on trains.

I see the early embrace of existentialism as more of a cultural deprogramming stage, which will often involve a bit of reactionary bitterness depending on the degree to which one was indoctrinated into nonsense in their youth.  It is a taste of freedom; a recognition of and railing against the ties that bind.  The process of expanding (the illusion of?) one's capacity for free will can be emotionally sloppy as the newly birthed mind finds it's legs. 

Perhaps one could have a more stable and middle-path procession into philosophy, but where's the fun in that?


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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14900524 -

millzy said:
this isn't to say that neitzsche and his ilk's work isn't without merit. quite the contrary. but after having lived a little and formally studied some of the classical stuff, i tend to interpret nietzche differently. to me existentialism is a philosophy hope and personal empowerment and not one of bitter, aimless nihlism.



I really like what you said here. I took philosophy as a minor in college (one not known for their philosophy department, mind you) and in my memory, the department was half filled with beret wearing Sartre quoters. But my memory always seems to leave out that I was one of them. lol. Philosophy isn't about wearing black, but like DisoRDeR says, "The process of expanding (the illusion of?) one's capacity for free will can be emotionally sloppy as the newly birthed mind finds it's legs."

I love the Nietzch-man as literature, but there are plenty of poetic philosophers out there. You mentioned Plato (Aristotle is about as dry as a Monday morning) but there is also Kierkegaard, William James, Emerson and others. I am surprised with the sudden outburst of the "new atheism" movement that there isn't more interest in Hume and Schopenhauer. For me, the "coolest of the cool" is Hegel.

In order for philosophy to be relevant today, I think it needs to be read outside of the ivory towers of academia. It has to remember its spoonful or sugar, so to speak. The analytical philosophy of today is really just an algebra for linguistics, IMHO. The only relevant philosopher worth reading today (that I know of, so don't hold me to this) is Daniel Dennet, and I strongly disagree with much of him.


--------------------
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt

"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing

"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
    #14901079 -

sonoffox said:
In order for philosophy to be relevant today, I think it needs to be read outside of the ivory towers of academia. It has to remember its spoonful or sugar, so to speak. The analytical philosophy of today is really just an algebra for linguistics, IMHO. The only relevant philosopher worth reading today (that I know of, so don't hold me to this) is Daniel Dennet, and I strongly disagree with much of him.


i'm not sure i totally agree with that. if you're referring to "philosophy" classes that are nothing more than survey courses with textbooks (lol), then i agree. but the classes i have taken have consisted of reading and discussing/debating in depth the texts we're studying. perhaps i've just lucked out. in any case, my point is that, for me personally, after spending some time studying under the guidance of someone with expansive knowledge of the subject and a rock solid grasp of the concepts, i have a deeper understanding of it than i did just picking up books here and there and reading philosophy forums etc. a perfect example is that while i was living in greece i decided to read republic. i got a lot out of it. but after a year of just studying and dissecting just a few dialogues, i didn't get as much out of republic as i thought i did.

moreover regarding plato and aristotle, plato to me is extremely interesting, but i do agree that aristotle is dry, and i have mixed emotions concerning how deeply engrained aristotelian logic is embedded in the western mindset. nevertheless both of these men's contributions are the foundation of our reality, and they undoubtedly have had enormous influence over all of western philosophy. nietzsche's concept of the "superman" is platonic idealism (ironically, so is christianity but we can keep that a secret from the hot topic crowd for now). that's why i think it's important to have at least a basic understanding of the classical guys, because all of contemporary philosophy references back to them, sometimes in obvious and intentional, ways.

indeed, "finding ones legs" is always a messy process, but imo at the same time it doesn't have to be crawling through the woods in the middle of the night blindfolded.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (08/10/11 12:34 PM)

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14902941 -

millzy said:
i'm not sure i totally agree with that. if you're referring to "philosophy" classes that are nothing more than survey courses with textbooks (lol), then i agree. but the classes i have taken have consisted of reading and discussing/debating in depth the texts we're studying.


no, i wasn't referring to classes or teachers, i was referring to people who are creating analytic philosophy. its all logic and mathematics (bertrand russell's proof of arithmetic using logic is an example.) it is neat, but useless. they have become so wrapped up in what can be verified that they have become afraid to say anything at all. there are exceptions, but people like lacan and derrida are so dense that even many philosophers believe they are emperors with no clothes, passing off mumbo-jumbo as philosophy. (i personally feel derrida killed literature. i'm viscously against deconstruction.)

about christianity being platonic. oh hell yes. and many would claim that was a big mistake, because it comes from augustine, not jesus. fuck augustine...he is why christianity is afraid of sex and anything bodily. jesus was a dionysian figure (wine, parties, prostitutes, peace love and happiness) but augustine turned him into an apollo. (lol...this is my field. i could go on forever.)

ps...love that pk dick quote.


--------------------
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt

"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing

"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
    #14903110 -

this thread is very interesting i don't really know that much about philosophy except what i've learnt in anthropology class and some psychoanlytic theory (neither of which are pure philosophy but contain some aspects of philosophy) i found a copy of ernest beckers denial of death at my uni library so thats what i'll be reading over semester break. i'd love to do a course in philosophy but my university doesn't have one :shrug: i guess i'll just go straight to neitzsche and begin my nihilistic despair :cool:


--------------------
Kupo said:
let's fuel the robots with psilocybin.

cez said:
everyone should smoke dmt for religion.

dustinthewind13 said:
euthanasia and prostitution should be legal and located in the same building.

White Beard said:
if you see the buddha on the road, rape him, then kill him. then rape him again.

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: blingbling]
    #14903999 -

honestly, people think that about nietzsche, but he is actually against nihilism (though suspects it is inevitable) and the overman is a life affirming concept. he foresaw our nightmare, he didn't wish for it.

my favorite quote: "without music, life would be a mistake."


--------------------
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt

"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing

"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
    #14904073 -

At werk right now, but you guys rock and i shall post some more comments tommorow morning when im off.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14904990 -

millzy said:
i see a lot of people recommending neitzsche on here for beginners, and as someone who read some of the same stuff in my younger days, i'd like to throw around an idea. basically, i think starting out with this stuff, especially as a younger person without as much life experience or little, if any, background studying philosophy, tends to kind of fuel this cynical, materialist world view.


Why do you characterize materialism as cynical? It's an ontological view; it should have absolutely nothing to do with being cynical, happy, pessimistic, or whatever.

Quote:
and i think his ripping criticism of christianity, while dead on in the context of the brand of christianity he is railing againgst, also make his work attractive to young people wanting to buck the system, so to speak. i also think that the greater message of his work, that being that we are ultimately responsible for what we get out of life, is often overlooked.


Yep, it definitely is. And a lot of people also unjustly criticize Nietzsche's views as cynical or depressing.

Quote:
this isn't to say that neitzsche and his ilk's work isn't without merit. quite the contrary. but after having lived a little and formally studied some of the classical stuff, i tend to interpret nietzche differently. to me existentialism is a philosophy hope and personal empowerment and not one of bitter, aimless nihlism.


Yep, it is, as anyone who studies it learns.

Quote:
i'm by no means an expert of philosophy, but my personal advice to anyone seeking to learn more is to start with the two guys whose ideas constitute a considerable portion of the ideological bedrock that informs the western reality; plato and aristotle. getting at least a basic grasp of both of these guys will do wonders for when you're ready to jump in with both feet with more contemporary stuff that has been built from the classical models.


Adherents of Aristotle's logic held back advancement in that field for hundreds of years, convinced that the only valid type of formal logic was the syllogism, despite the obvious inconsistencies that could be passed off as true. Plato was, in my opinion, wrong about so many things I don't know where to begin, but a good place to start would be the propagation of dualism (centuries before Descartes), which has infected every branch of philosophy like a virus.

Quote:
idk, just rambling. i love philosophy and would like it if more people truly understood it, and starting out with, what is in some cases, grad school level texts is most likely going to lead to some pretty crucial misunderstandings.

thoughts?


I say if you can read a text and understand the words, then go for it. There's no single right interpretation, and repeated readings and analyzations of it will lead you to your own ideas. If you go through a period of pessimism, that's life, and in my case, partially fueled my passion for philosophy. In fact, it helped me arrive at a greater understanding of why there's no reason to be pessimistic.

So overall, I disagree with your post. Actually, I think that sort of thinking is what turns a lot of people off of philosophy; the idea that there are "levels," that they have to slog through Aristotle and Plato before they get to the moderns and contemporaries, that really speak to their time and situation.


--------------------

Edited by NetDiver (08/11/11 05:59 AM)

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14905081 -

Is there anyone here who would be willing to come over to my place for like an hour before sleepy time for a few months and read Nietzsche's  works to me and explain the hard parts?  Other wise I fear I will never read anything but some of his cool quotes. :sad:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: millzy]
    #14907263 -

here I was, thinking the gateway to philosophy (love of wisdom) was just asking the question: "Why?"


--------------------

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14907696 -

Samurai Drifter said:
Why do you characterize materialism as cynical? It's an ontological view; it should have absolutely nothing to do with being cynical, happy, pessimistic, or whatever.


i don't categorize materialism as cynical. i said that a misreading of him can sometimes lead to a cynical outlook. i admire nieitzsche's work.

Quote:
Adherents of Aristotle's logic held back advancement in that field for hundreds of years, convinced that the only valid type of formal logic was the syllogism, despite the obvious inconsistencies that could be passed off as true.


we, as in the western world, are still on a binge of aristotelian logic. the way in which we argue law, study science etc is all based off of aristotle.

Quote:
Plato was, in my opinion, wrong about so many things I don't know where to begin, but a good place to start would be the propagation of dualism (centuries before Descartes), which has infected every branch of philosophy like a virus.


explain how plato was "wrong" in your opinion. 

Quote:
I say if you can read a text and understand the words, then go for it. There's no single right interpretation, and repeated readings and analyzations of it will lead you to your own ideas. If you go through a period of pessimism, that's life, and in my case, partially fueled my passion for philosophy. In fact, it helped me arrive at a greater understanding of why there's no reason to be pessimistic.


i say that if you want to learn how to do algebra, you must first learn how to add, subtract, divide and multiply. philosophy is not open to interpretation in the way that you frame it. while there is a lush variety of opinions debating its minutia, there are also very concrete concepts that all contemporary philosophy builds off of i.e. platonic idealism, which is not a materialist concept btw - see the mention of "the overman" (thank you to whoever corrected me on that by the way. "superman" is darwinian, i think). someone reading nietzsche with a lack of that piece of knowledge will misinterpret him. it isn't a matter of being stupid, it's just not having all the tools on hand necessary to understand it.

Quote:
So overall, I disagree with your post. Actually, I think that sort of thinking is what turns a lot of people off of philosophy; the idea that there are "levels," that they have to slog through Aristotle and Plato before they get to the moderns and contemporaries, that really speak to their time and situation.


you are certainly entitled to your disagreement. indeed, putting effort into anything is what turns most people off to certain subjects.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #14907701 -

Visionary Tools said:
here I was, thinking the gateway to philosophy (love of wisdom) was just asking the question: "Why?"


the gateway to philosophy is understanding the philosophical question: that of being. what is it to be? this is the set of problems philosophy seeks to address.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
    #14908303 -

sonoffox said:
millzy said:
i'm not sure i totally agree with that. if you're referring to "philosophy" classes that are nothing more than survey courses with textbooks (lol), then i agree. but the classes i have taken have consisted of reading and discussing/debating in depth the texts we're studying.


no, i wasn't referring to classes or teachers, i was referring to people who are creating analytic philosophy. its all logic and mathematics (bertrand russell's proof of arithmetic using logic is an example.) it is neat, but useless. they have become so wrapped up in what can be verified that they have become afraid to say anything at all. there are exceptions, but people like lacan and derrida are so dense that even many philosophers believe they are emperors with no clothes, passing off mumbo-jumbo as philosophy. (i personally feel derrida killed literature. i'm viscously against deconstruction.)

about christianity being platonic. oh hell yes. and many would claim that was a big mistake, because it comes from augustine, not jesus. fuck augustine...he is why christianity is afraid of sex and anything bodily. jesus was a dionysian figure (wine, parties, prostitutes, peace love and happiness) but augustine turned him into an apollo. (lol...this is my field. i could go on forever.)

ps...love that pk dick quote.


btw, i'm going to reply to this, but i work nights and i'm on a total fuck of a week (switching jobs to a better one, finishing out this shit one tonight - worked 13 hours on 3 hours of sleep last night), so i don't have time just yet to get to this. i definitely would like to continue our conversation and pick your brain for some book rec's too. :smile:


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: NetDiver]
    #14910706 -

Samurai Drifter said:
Why do you characterize materialism as cynical? It's an ontological view; it should have absolutely nothing to do with being cynical, happy, pessimistic, or whatever.



i think the cynicism isn't materialism, but the reductionism that so often goes along with it. i'm an idealist, but i think if we could actually "see" the "stuff" of ultimate reality, we would then argue that we were each correct anyway. the fact of ultimate non-dualism forgets that we experience dualism (an illusion, perhaps, but illusions are honestly experienced). we just fail to understand that beneath it is some one thing. why do we pretend we will understand that one thing with any of our words at all? why would spirit or matter apply to something we are still so far from?

if you want to see reductionism at work, read sam harris. he recently declared that there is no free-will. why? because they looked for a mechanism in certain neurological cells and they weren't there. how this means there is not a thing we all feel to be real, based on the failure of one experiment, that is bad science. on top of that, he put his findings in an essay with a "tough shit" attitude. personally, as a fan of gurdjieff (and rush!!!) you have to consciously choose to have free will. it is a phenomenological issue, and i highly doubt you will find it in the chemistry, but in the content of the mind.

to the OP...i have a ton of torrents of philosophical lectures you might enjoy. i read a ton, but i find lectures to have a certain something when it comes to philosophy. as i don't "do" philosophy, i don't need the endless proofs and careful language in much modern and post-modern work (plus, i have other interests...philosophy can dominate your life). lemme know and i'll send you a few.


--------------------
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt

"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing

"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
    #14911094 -

Can an illusion really ever be an illusion?

of course we must distinguish types of illusion. What are we being fooled about?
Either we think it is one way and it is actually another way,
or
we think it is some way but it actually doesnt exist.


So do you think that we experience reality incorrectly while still experiencing it

OR

do you think we dont experience reality at all, and are just reacting to the world as if we were?


--------------------

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14911568 -

Noteworthy said:
Can an illusion really ever be an illusion?

of course we must distinguish types of illusion. What are we being fooled about?
Either we think it is one way and it is actually another way,
or
we think it is some way but it actually doesnt exist.


So do you think that we experience reality incorrectly while still experiencing it

OR

do you think we dont experience reality at all, and are just reacting to the world as if we were?


i think we perceive reality through a veil that is our brain. if we were able to "see" all the information that is around us, we wouldn't be very capable. we would be in a constant state of sensory overload. this is very much the state that some hallucinogenic experiences put us in. we have blind spots to keep us focused. as we have invented devices to "view" information that our system isn't wired for, like other wavelengths of light, neutrinos, etc, we open more doors. if i told someone in the renaissance that the sun's warmth is due to an invisible form of light, they would have burned me at the stake. why? because "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Arthur C Clarke.

so, we are at a point where the new collider in switzerland is looking at things we have never been able to look at before. scientists are looking desperately for dark energy, not even a clue how to find it. are we so foolish to say there aren't vistas still to open? i'm not foolish to say that science couldn't understand the spiritual side of reality, but they haven't the tools yet. (DMT research is a step in the right direction.) science should stop telling people that their experiences are not worth studying, and people with those experiences should stop fearing science. we are all after the same thing: truth and understanding.

here are Clarke's three laws...all of which have been forgotten in the reductionist circles.

Quote:
1 When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2 The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3 Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.



--------------------
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt

"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing

"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: sonoffox]
    #14911633 -

so it seems that you take option A: you think the world is one way, when it actually is another way.

But if this is the illusion, its not really an illusion at all, because in the case of duality, the concept is derived from the fact of perception, which is the same regardless of the content


--------------------

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Re: existentialism - the gateway philosophy? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #14911763 -

Noteworthy said:
so it seems that you take option A: you think the world is one way, when it actually is another way.

But if this is the illusion, its not really an illusion at all, because in the case of duality, the concept is derived from the fact of perception, which is the same regardless of the content


yeah, i agree with this. illusion wasn't the best choice of words.


--------------------
"Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." ~Walt

"Surprised, are you? Yes, I am extra, a gift, superfluous to the necessary, a proof of the generosity concealed in everything." ~Doris Lessing

"I searched for God and found only myself.
I searched for myself and found only God." Rumi

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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