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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13509785 -

Those thoughts weren't disjointed at all...sorry if you didn't follow.


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: Poid]
    #13509989 -

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soldatheero said:
Not only is there evidence of reincarnation, I understand it and know how it makes sense and is the truth.


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Where's the evidence? Explain your understanding of reincarnation, please.



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soldatheero said:
I'v also had out-of body experiences that I cannot deny.


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What relevance does your refusal to deny your OBE experience have to this debate?



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soldatheero said:
All of these combined, rebirth is real beyond any reasonable doubt.


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There are plenty of reasonable doubts, as you have not, in any way, shape, or form, supported your argument.



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soldatheero said:
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How so? Has it already been written?


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Not even close, I know how to critically think.


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Apparently not.



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soldatheero said:
To those of you who think it doesn't make sense you should consider it might just be over your head.


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Proving your beliefs with logic is over your head.

Nice ad hominem BTW. 



All these arguments are invalid. I was asked why I personally believe in reincarnation. None of the things I mentioned were meant to be proof of reincarnation they are just why I believe in it personally, why I have no personal doubts. It's personal proof through experience. You misunderstood the context of my post.

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Explain your understanding of reincarnation, please.





I already did that on the first page of the thread.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13510077 -

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This is because memories do not exists in the brain.

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And thusly we decend once more into the Dark Age of Ignorance. 


Prove that what I have stated is not a possibility. Prove that memory is a product of the brain and not consciousness (which is not physical)

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How many times can you be in error in one thread? You must be going for a personal record.

The mind is a descriptor of certain brain functions.




No, it's not. I've never heard that before, it may be that but that is not all it is, sounds like a gross over-simplification. The mind is not the brain and the mind can effect the brain. Explain or prove how this is not true.
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There are many many well documented cases of past-life recall

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No, there are not.


"Ian Stevenson published more than 2,500 case studies from around the world[1][2] of children that seemed to him to be able to remember events in a life that had ended, often in a violent way, before the child was born."

2500 suggestive of reincarnation from one researcher, quite a few in my opinion.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13510105 -

guruu said:
Yes but those little atoms can arrange themselves and produce consciousness.  And if they're arranged like this in the physical brain, maybe there is a non-local arrangement that plays a part in consciousness also.  Which would explain ufo phenomenon and other cosmic shit that regularly happens to humans.


Don't you think consciousness was part of the evolutionary process?  I don't think very early man had consciousness, at least not on the level we have today.


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Mushrooms | LSD | Salvia | JWH-018 | AM-2201 |  4-AcO-DMT | 2C-E | 2C-I | 5-MeO-DMTs | 5-MeO-DALT | 5-MeO-MIPT | 25C-NBOMe | MDPV | Methylone | Mephedrone | Nitrous Oxide | Alcohol | DXM | Methoxetamine |  4-MeO-PCP | Xanax | Valium | Phenazepam |  Ambien | Lunesta

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: CycleThoughts]
    #13510488 -

I'm sure early man had consciousness.  I mean a dog has consciousness.  I do think consciousness is part of the evolutionary process, in fact it is the thing that's evolving.  They may or may not have had meta-cognition, but they still had highly complex brains and a sense of existing.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13510525 -

Don't you think the evolution of the brain had something to do with evolution of consciousness?  I'm reading about awareness vs. consciousness.  I always thought awareness would be the more complex of the two, but it seems I was wrong.


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Mushrooms | LSD | Salvia | JWH-018 | AM-2201 |  4-AcO-DMT | 2C-E | 2C-I | 5-MeO-DMTs | 5-MeO-DALT | 5-MeO-MIPT | 25C-NBOMe | MDPV | Methylone | Mephedrone | Nitrous Oxide | Alcohol | DXM | Methoxetamine |  4-MeO-PCP | Xanax | Valium | Phenazepam |  Ambien | Lunesta

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13510974 -

guruu said:
Poid, I don't get the sense you want to understand this at all.  I get the sense you're trying to win an argument on the internet.

And what the hell are you trying to do? :lol:


guruu said:
I'm not gonna play your little game and argue sentence by sentence.  We can converse like adults, in paragraphs :cool:

You really think you're debating like an adult? :hehehe:

I am addressing each of your claims individually, that is how debate works.


guruu said:
But just to point out one thing, analogies in nature are totally valid.

I never claimed that they weren't.


guruu said:
If you haven't noticed, there are commonalities at different levels of organization.  Where else would evidence for what happens after death come from?

"Commonalities at different levels of organization"--can you be any more vague? :bored:

There is no evidence for what happens after death.


guruu said:
We have in nature examples of forms being destroyed and reforming themselves.

Great, what does that prove?


guruu said:
I can't expect you to believe this because you obviously have not had the experiences and observations necessary to, but you're trying to make it sound stupid and illogical, and it flat out isn't.

How do you know what experiences I've had? You don't, that's how. :smirk:

What you can't expect me to believe is wholly irrelevant, stop making ad hominems and defend your claims, guruu. :ghandi:


guruu said:
Seriously, instead of just trying to pick apart what I say, tell me in your own words why reincarnation doesn't make sense.

The burden of proof is on you.


guruu said:
Essentially, it is conceivable that our brains can be in contact with the universe at large.

What does "in contact with the universe at large" mean? God is conceivable, but that doesn't mean he's real.


guruu said:
When we die, maybe the physical brain goes away...

Yeah maybe, but not definitely.


guruu said:
...but the imprint we left on the universe at large lives on and serves as the blueprint for a new individual.

Proof?


guruu said:
...In fact, this 'astral body' is exactly what mystic traditions declare to survive death.

So what? :levitate:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: soldatheero]
    #13510982 -

soldatheero said:
Quote:
Quote:
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soldatheero said:
Not only is there evidence of reincarnation, I understand it and know how it makes sense and is the truth.


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Where's the evidence? Explain your understanding of reincarnation, please.



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soldatheero said:
I'v also had out-of body experiences that I cannot deny.


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What relevance does your refusal to deny your OBE experience have to this debate?



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soldatheero said:
All of these combined, rebirth is real beyond any reasonable doubt.


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There are plenty of reasonable doubts, as you have not, in any way, shape, or form, supported your argument.



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soldatheero said:
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How so? Has it already been written?


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Not even close, I know how to critically think.


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Apparently not.



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soldatheero said:
To those of you who think it doesn't make sense you should consider it might just be over your head.


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Proving your beliefs with logic is over your head.

Nice ad hominem BTW. 



All these arguments are invalid. I was asked why I personally believe in reincarnation. None of the things I mentioned were meant to be proof of reincarnation they are just why I believe in it personally, why I have no personal doubts. It's personal proof through experience. You misunderstood the context of my post.

No, what I don't understand is why you're providing baseless opinions in a debate forum.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: soldatheero]
    #13510988 -

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This is because memories do not exists in the brain.

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And thusly we decend once more into the Dark Age of Ignorance. 


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Prove that what I have stated is not a possibility. Prove that memory is a product of the brain and not consciousness (which is not physical)




You make an erroneous statement and it is up to me to make your case? Too precious.

OK, guess you are unfamiliar with brain damage and aging... :rolleyes:


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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: Poid]
    #13513539 -

Poid said:
guruu said:
Seriously, instead of just trying to pick apart what I say, tell me in your own words why reincarnation doesn't make sense.

The burden of proof is on you.



The title of this thread is "why reincarnation doesn't make sense." All I've been arguing is that the idea is internally consistent. I'm not trying to empirically prove it. I'm just arguing to show how it could be possible, which you seem to think it could not be. From there, you would need to have had spiritual experiences of some sort before I'd expect you to take the idea seriously.  But you should at least leave your mind open about it, not bein all materialist and such :tongue2:


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13513666 -

guruu said:
Buddhism says there is no irreducible self or soul that continues from life to life, it's just a stream of selves, but from books like Autobigoraphy of a Yogi, I feel like there is still a semi-permanent self that does exist from life to life. The atman or soul.


Can you elaborate a little bit on this belief?  Why do you think Buddhism is wrong in this case?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: deCypher]
    #13513695 -

I don't think buddhism is wrong, just the way they word it makes it sound like there is no continuous soul. Buddhism is actually quite concerned with semantic accuracy so sometimes things get presented in a different light. But there are lots of descriptions out there of recalling past life memories, so I figure there probably is some discrete entity that goes on.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13514297 -

Quote:
You make an erroneous statement and it is up to me to make your case? Too precious.

OK, guess you are unfamiliar with brain damage and aging... 


The fact the aging and brain damage effect memory is not surprising. The brain can effect consciousness, if memory is the direct result of a stream of consciousness then it is obvious that if that stream of consciousness is impaired by a malfunctioning brain then memeries will be impaired as well.


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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: soldatheero]
    #13514452 -

Quote:
The brain can effect consciousness,


*sigh* You still keep failing to understand what a property is.


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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13514471 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
The brain can effect consciousness,


*sigh* You still keep failing to understand what a property is.


Explain so we can understand.


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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: CycleThoughts]
    #13514563 -

The human body is a su;ercluster of molecular system.
The universe in itself is a system inside of a system inside of a system reaching into infinity. THe more we consider how solid solids are, we realize that they are really just fast space.
Space is really solid, but just a slow dilute space.

AS clusters of infinite complexity, we are comprised of cells which are miniature systems, atoms, quarks, and strings if one believes that theory.

WE are a fractal, or a more complex expression of these infintessimally small and large systems, our conciousness is incorporated into one level out of these infinite planes of existence.

When we die, the systems that make us cease to work, the ego is dissolved and the systems join much larger systems. The ego isnt real, it is construction of the self. The cells dissolve to atoms which rejoin the earth which get used to create even more complex structurs such as plants which humans and other animals eat which get broken down into pure atoms or molecules which get used to make you.

There is no astral body. there is no continuity of conciousness. When you die you cannot take anything with you, you have to just go with the flow. Look at yourselves now. in the grand scheme of all time and parallel universes how is it possdible that out of all existence that has ever happned that you came into the world only once. and you never really do COME into this world, you just get formed as a result of the relationships between particles of varying electric charge.
There is no real such thing as death, when you die the rebirth will seem instant because time is only relative to an observer, it is created by mind as a rate of change with which it comprises information and observes its own demise.

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: CycleThoughts] * 1
    #13514614 -

CycleThoughts said:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
The brain can effect consciousness,


*sigh* You still keep failing to understand what a property is.


Explain so we can understand.


Red and round are properties of an apple. An apple does not affect roundness - that makes no sense.

The brain does not affect consciousness; consciousness is a property of brain function and neural topology.


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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13519434 -

guruu said:
Poid said:
guruu said:
Seriously, instead of just trying to pick apart what I say, tell me in your own words why reincarnation doesn't make sense.

The burden of proof is on you.



The title of this thread is "why reincarnation doesn't make sense." All I've been arguing is that the idea is internally consistent. I'm not trying to empirically prove it. I'm just arguing to show how it could be possible, which you seem to think it could not be.

I don't think any unfalsifiable theory is worth entertaining.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: Poid]
    #13520155 -

It's not unfalsifiable, just that science in its current form can neither confirm nor deny its validity.  If we had the science and minds to peer beyond death, then we could confirm or deny the theory.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13520188 -

guruu said:
I don't think buddhism is wrong, just the way they word it makes it sound like there is no continuous soul. Buddhism is actually quite concerned with semantic accuracy so sometimes things get presented in a different light. But there are lots of descriptions out there of recalling past life memories, so I figure there probably is some discrete entity that goes on.


From what I've read, Buddhism precisely denies the existence of a discrete entity or unchanging soul; it isn't merely a matter of semantics.  :confused:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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