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Invisiblegiza
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: giza]
    #14036953 - 02/27/11 04:41 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Perhaps apes evolved from us.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: giza]
    #14036989 - 02/27/11 04:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Giza I like your thinking! Theory of Evolution just raises more questions than it answers

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: giza]
    #14036991 - 02/27/11 04:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

giza said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Do you also believe that we evolved from ape-like ancestors?  How does reincarnation fit into this perspective, going all the way back down the tree of life to the original self-replicating molecule?




No I have not studied the thoughts of evolution as of yet.



you can observe evolution


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Offlinedurantz
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: learningtofly]
    #14037006 - 02/27/11 04:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

you can observe evolution




You can observe random mutation?

Wow you must be pretty fricking awesome dude!

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Invisiblegiza
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: learningtofly]
    #14037008 - 02/27/11 04:51 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If you're not afraid of death then why do you want life to have a meaning and why do you want to be immortal?




I don't need it to have meaning I just want to keep on existing in it.

I want to be immortal for several reasons..
Food/Drugs/Entertainment
Living in different ages
- Such as say a planet is in the stone age
I could stay there for years living on that planet, until I get bored.
Then I move on to the next planet
The possibility of supernatural powers..

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: giza]
    #14037016 - 02/27/11 04:53 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

haha Giza I'm pretty sure the simple fact that you would be immortal should be a good enough supernatural power!

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: durantz]
    #14037028 - 02/27/11 04:56 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
Quote:

you can observe evolution




You can observe random mutation?

Wow you must be pretty fricking awesome dude!



:facepalm:


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Invisiblegiza
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: learningtofly]
    #14037051 - 02/27/11 05:01 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Evolution is basically the adaptation to certain elements of life that make it easier for the existee, correct?

So how do humans evolve from a point where they are content and go through life with ease?
Wouldn't we need some sort of hardship to actually evolve for?

Like how apes can break down certain plant proteins and have supernatural strength compared to a human.
That adaptation is from the ape's living conditions over years and years, right?

So if we humans want to evolve to break down those proteins like an ape, wouldn't we have to keep eating these plant proteins in order for our body to figure out how to break them down?

I have something else I'll type up after this gets answered.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: giza]
    #14037108 - 02/27/11 05:12 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

No Giza you're incorect.

Evolution is random mutation. It is completely random...

That is why it is such a weak theory.

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Invisiblegiza
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: durantz]
    #14037116 - 02/27/11 05:15 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

What I said makes more sense to me than random mutation..
Okay on to next, give me few minutes.

Thank you all for your insight on the different things.

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Invisiblegiza
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: giza]
    #14037144 - 02/27/11 05:20 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Since there are 2 different tastes..
Does this mean there are infinite amounts of tastes?
Since an apple differs from an orange doesn't this prove the possibility of an infinite amount of different types of tastes?
Same with highs?(drugs)

Since one type of taste was created isn't there the possibility for the different tastes to be infinite?

To those who believe in life on other planets..
This planet has produced thousands if not more different tastes..
- as in fruit/veg/spices/grains
So if there were to be even just 1 more planet out there with life how many different tastes could that planet possibly have?

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: durantz]
    #14037175 - 02/27/11 05:26 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
No Giza you're incorect.

Evolution is random mutation. It is completely random...

That is why it is such a weak theory.




Evolution is not random mutation, but the evolution of organisms does require mutation of sorts.  And please support your assertion that evolution is a "weak" theory, especially considering it is accepted by most scientists around the world.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: durantz]
    #14037564 - 02/27/11 06:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
No Giza you're incorect.

Evolution is random mutation. It is completely random...

That is why it is such a weak theory.




No, that is only half of it.  The mutations are random, but the selection is far from random.  Random mutations coupled with non-random selection yields numerous and exotic genetic 'solutions' to the fitness landscape.  Its one of the strongest theories in all of science.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: DieCommie]
    #14038116 - 02/27/11 07:58 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

that is only half of it




yeah the first half of it...

The second half is built on the premise of the first, which is that organisms undergo random mutation.

Explain the first half to me then I will agree that the theory of evolution is a strong theory.

And just because a theory is accepted does not make it strong, it merely means that it is the best thing (or most culturally acceptable) we have at this point in time.

One very obvious problem is why we still have single celled organisms that are "unevolved"...

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: durantz]
    #14038252 - 02/27/11 08:16 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
One very obvious problem is why we still have single celled organisms that are "unevolved"...




Source?  And how does this contradict the theory of evolution?


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: deCypher]
    #14038360 - 02/27/11 08:30 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry I wasn't specific enough. What I meant is how does it explain why some single celled organisms evolved into multi-celled creatures while others remained single celled?

Everything is evolved, and I do not disagree with the theory of evolution as a means to explain certain change. But the theory is built upon random mutation which is currently unable to be explained...

So the theory is far from complete and I do not see it as a strong argument against the existence of a God.

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InvisibleRahz
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Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: giza]
    #14038378 - 02/27/11 08:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I see no problem with believing in something that may not be true, but gives you closure on dying.





I don't think it's that simple. For me, any belief that isn't based on something logical holds doubt, the doubt being equal in proportion to the belief, and doubt is a form of suffering. I won't say it's true in all cases, but people suffer for their beliefs.

As for reincarnation, it's also not so simple unless you're going to ignore the classical definitions, which generally haven't made in into the West. According to Wikipedia: "a being is born into a Naraka (hell) as a direct result of his or her accumulated karma and resides there for a finite period of time until that karma has achieved its full result. After his or her karma is used up, he or she will be reborn in one of the higher worlds as the result of karma that had not yet ripened."

Believing in Buddhist reincarnation means you may have to spend 3.39738624×10(to the 18th power) years burning in a large oven.

Quote:

I just don't believe you should rule anything that is possible out just because it sounds 'silly'.




It is silly, because it makes no sense, meaning it doesn't seem possible without twisting all that has been witnessed. That doesn't mean there is absolutely no chance it is true, but there is no reasonable logic to support the possibility.

Quote:

There must be reincarnation of some sorts, or there is no point to life at all.




Life is constantly being reincarnated. Plants use seeds and nuts, animals have babies. It is not known if life is occupying a discrete instance of reality, or spans all existence. Both seem odd, but less odd is that life stretches to infinity because it agrees with the currently observed laws of physics, and that would make life an inherent quality of the universe. That is reincarnation of a sort. Karma is also reincarnated. The qualities of one are passed on to the other.

Quote:

I would think after all these years of existence we would treasure our conscious enough to figure out how make it immortal.




It's not from lack of trying. I was in Florida recently and visited Warm Mineral Springs, the supposed place Ponce De Leon ascribed to the Fountain of Youth... shortly before his untimely demise. It's a saltwater spring, always 87 degrees F, with 51 minerals, of which I think sulfur features prominently because the place smells like rotten eggs. It's not going to keep the retirement community alive forever, but a person could certainly believe it, for a while at least.

Biogerontology exists as a science, and while many who study it don't believe unlimited life span is possible, there are guys like Aubrey de Grey who think science will eventually understand and conquer all the biological processes that cause ageing. While living for an unlimited number of years would be nice, it would also increase the chance of dieing from 'unnatural' causes to 100%.

That these individual consciousnesses don't exist forever does make sense. The evidence is everywhere. We're programmed to resist and avoid death at almost any cost, so attempting to accept it can get a little loopy.

Quote:

If we do not reincarnate there is really nothing




Sounds Zen like.

Edit: The plaque at Warm Mineral Springs kinda indicates Ponce De Leon was there, but apparently I read it wrong, and they simply use his name as a marketing gimmick.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Edited by Rahz (02/27/11 09:52 PM)

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: durantz]
    #14038881 - 02/27/11 09:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

durantz said:
What I meant is how does it explain why some single celled organisms evolved into multi-celled creatures while others remained single celled?




Well, one could explain it by saying that an environment existed wherein eukaryotes had a better chance of surviving to reproduce than prokaryotes, leading to the first event, and another environment somewhere else existed where prokaryotes had a better chance of surviving to reproduce than eukaryotes, leading to the second event.  :shrug:

Quote:

durantz said:
But the theory is built upon random mutation which is currently unable to be explained...




What do you mean by this?

Quote:

durantz said:
I do not see it as a strong argument against the existence of a God.




Evolution isn't intended to argue against the existence of a God.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinedurantz
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: deCypher]
    #14038986 - 02/27/11 09:46 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yes I agree with your explanation. but it does not explain why either of those things existed in the first place.

Well so far we are unable to explain why random mutation occurs. We simply say 'it happens'. If you agree in the laws of cause and effect then we should be able to isolate random mutation to a particular action. So far this has not been done which means that the theory of evolution is incomplete. It's not to say that one day we won't find a cause for random mutations but at this point in time it really is a matter of faith.

I've kinda forgotten why evolution was brought up in this topic. But Giza's initial argument seems to be arguing for a god like existence and then someone brought up evolution as a counter argument.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: If reincarnation was proven.. would you? (poll) (MORE SPECIFIC) [Re: durantz]
    #14038997 - 02/27/11 09:47 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Cosmic rays cause mutations, incorrect copying and transcription cause mutations, etcetera...


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