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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13506692 -

Why do people create?


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Mushrooms | LSD | Salvia | JWH-018 | AM-2201 |  4-AcO-DMT | 2C-E | 2C-I | 5-MeO-DMTs | 5-MeO-DALT | 5-MeO-MIPT | 25C-NBOMe | MDPV | Methylone | Mephedrone | Nitrous Oxide | Alcohol | DXM | Methoxetamine |  4-MeO-PCP | Xanax | Valium | Phenazepam |  Ambien | Lunesta

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: CycleThoughts]
    #13506881 -

Because creation feels amazing.  It's a spontaneous impulse, I guess it has something to do with a desire for gratification.  But basically I think it's our fundamental nature to create, even if that's only to fuck and make a baby like all the other animals.


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check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13507168 -

Quote:
After you die, the skandas (somehow) disperse, but they eventually regroup (somehow).


The sense is in understanding and answering the question of how.

There is no logic/sense/reason in saying a specific instance of a desire survives the death of a specific body, only that we are all human and have similar experiences. The type of reincarnation you describe is mystical, doesn't make sense by it's very nature, and an appeal to consciousness doesn't change that.

If all things are interconnected, where is the path for atman? All past lives are 'mine', are they not?


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

Edited by Rahz (11/19/10 12:44 AM)

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: Rahz]
    #13508645 -

They disperse when you die, naturally because the ego dies and everything that created it, whatever that is, doesn't operate in that mechanism any more. The effect of that dispersing energy is to eventually regroup as a new ego. There are analogies to this in nature.  Like a star exploding and reforming. Or soil from dead shit in the forest as fuel for new plants. 

All past lives are not 'yours.' They form a causal stream of separate, completely individual beings.  But at the same time there is a distinct element of continuity as well.  When understood properly it's not really wishful thinking, it's sort of intense actually, eternally reforming as a new ego.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: soldatheero]
    #13508769 -

Quote:
This is because memories do not exists in the brain.


And thusly we decend once more into the Dark Age of Ignorance.


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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: soldatheero]
    #13508791 -

Quote:
There are many many well documented cases of past-life recall


No, there are not.


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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: soldatheero]
    #13508814 -

Quote:
brain affects the mind and the mind affects the brain


How many times can you be in error in one thread? You must be going for a personal record.

The mind is a descriptor of certain brain functions.


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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13508850 -

guruu said:
What you are as an individual being is a collection of desires, habits, traits, etc.

What a complete description! :smile:


guruu said:
After you die, the skandas disperse, but they eventually regroup.

Proof?


guruu said:
This regrouping is inevitable because of a being's desires.

Why does a being's desires make that regrouping inevitable?

 
guruu said:
I feel like there is still a semi-permanent self that does exist from life to life. The atman or soul.

So? :undecided:


guruu said:
I can see how this would be illogical if you think the universe is primarily material.

It'\s illogical because you haven't supported it with logic, and you probably never will. :haha:


guruu said:
But if you can see how the universe is founded in consciousness, and not the other way around, the idea that the effects of your thoughts and actions will cause you to reincarnate doesn't seem so far fetched.

This is like saying "If you can see how God works through mysterious ways, then the idea that you will go to heaven doesn't seem so far fetched.". Let me remind you that you have provided absolutely no evidence for any of your claims.


guruu said:
Science isn't yet at the point where it can seriously tackle an investigation of a phenomenon like this...

Yet you are able to tackle such a phenomenon? :wtf:


guruu said:
They disperse when you die, naturally because the ego dies and everything that created it, whatever that is, doesn't operate in that mechanism any more. The effect of that dispersing energy is to eventually regroup as a new ego. There are analogies to this in nature.

Point being?


guruu said:
Like a star exploding and reforming. Or soil from dead shit in the forest as fuel for new plants.

We are not stars, dead shit, forests, or fuel for new plants. We are humans, get used to it. :monkeydance:

 
guruu said:
All past lives are not 'yours.' They form a causal stream of separate, completely individual beings.  But at the same time there is a distinct element of continuity as well.  When understood properly it's not really wishful thinking, it's sort of intense actually, eternally reforming as a new ego.

I'm trying to understand this properly, but you're not explaining it properly. :shrug2:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (11/19/10 11:41 AM)

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13508851 -



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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: soldatheero]
    #13508880 -

soldatheero said:
I don't believe in rebirth I know it's fact.

So you don't believe it's a fact? :tard:


soldatheero said:
Not only is there evidence of reincarnation, I understand it and know how it makes sense and is the truth.

Where's the evidence? Explain your understanding of reincarnation, please. :smirk:


soldatheero said:
I'v also had out-of body experiences that I cannot deny.

What relevance does your refusal to deny your OBE experience have to this debate?


soldatheero said:
All of these combined, rebirth is real beyond any reasonable doubt.

There are plenty of reasonable doubts, as you have not, in any way, shape, or form, supported your argument.


soldatheero said:
Quote:
How so? Has it already been written?


Not even close, I know how to critically think.

Apparently not. :lol:


soldatheero said:
To those of you who think it doesn't make sense you should consider it might just be over your head.

Proving your beliefs with logic is over your head. :shrug:

Nice ad hominem BTW. :thumbup:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: Poid]
    #13509539 -

Poid, I don't get the sense you want to understand this at all.  I get the sense you're trying to win an argument on the internet.  I'm not gonna play your little game and argue sentence by sentence.  We can converse like adults, in paragraphs :cool:

But just to point out one thing, analogies in nature are totally valid.  If you haven't noticed, there are commonalities at different levels of organization.  Where else would evidence for what happens after death come from? We have in nature examples of forms being destroyed and reforming themselves.  I can't expect you to believe this because you obviously have not had the experiences and observations necessary to, but you're trying to make it sound stupid and illogical, and it flat out isn't.  Seriously, instead of just trying to pick apart what I say, tell me in your own words why reincarnation doesn't make sense.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13509557 -

Quote:
They disperse when you die, naturally because the ego dies and everything that created it, whatever that is, doesn't operate in that mechanism any more.


I can accept that, but the rest doesn't make sense. Having experiences in which something more seems to be real, no matter how strongly it seems so, doesn't add up to it being reasonable. 

The examples I've read describe a candle, igniting another candle, or a billiard ball transferring energy to another ball. All of these examples fail to explain transmigration of karma by rebirth, though they do an excellent job of explaining the transfer of energetic phenomena, which could be referred to as karma when transfered through direct experience. The examples I gave earlier are much more closely aligned with star dust and organic matter.

You have 10,000 dedicated lifelong monks who say things are a certain way, and they have their illuminaries, said to be enlightened. They write books that invoke a sense of profundity. You have 10,000 monks from a different sect, with their illuminaries, saying things are a different way. Both groups claim a perfect understanding. I do not believe any of them, nor do I trust my own mind in mystical matters. The weight of Buddha or Krishnas' words are nothing but karma blowing in the wind, as far as I can tell.

This doesn't mean reincarnation/rebirth is not true, but, it doesn't makes sense. You have failed to make sense thus far. You have appealed to books, subjective experience, and material phenomena, but they have done nothing to make your assertion reasonable. The civility is appreciated though. :smile:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: Rahz]
    #13509618 -

They use different ways of saying it, but those mystic traditions are actually in startlingly consistent agreement.  The tao, the atman, the Self, the moment, christ, cosmic consciousness....these are all the same thing.  The words of Buddha or Krishna carry much power in them.  That's why they create a sense of profundity. 

Those examples, like the billiard balls and the candles, are good examples of energy transfer. Only with reincarnation it's happening with human bodies, not with billiard balls.

okay, just for this thread, i'm gonna explain reincarnation in the best physical terms i can.  So ya know quantum entanglement? Two particles are entangled so that the properties of one directly effect the properties of another, regardless of space and time.  If one is spin up the other has to be spin down.  The reason this is important is it proves that the universe is non local.  Essentially, it is conceivable that our brains can be in contact with the universe at large.  When we die, maybe the physical brain goes away, but the imprint we left on the universe at large lives on and serves as the blueprint for a new individual.  In fact, this 'astral body' is exactly what mystic traditions declare to survive death.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13509628 -

Quote:
but you're trying to make it sound stupid and illogical


Only because it is. You have written nothing to dispel that notion. In fact, your lack of evidence or logical arguments only buttresses that conclusion.

Forms are destroyed and then later reform into something else. So what? The atoms and molecules still exist, but all of the information coded in the form is lost, just like melting a CD or burning a document.


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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13509632 -

see above


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13509683 -

Repeating nonsense does not give it greater validity, now does it?


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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #13509699 -

You could at least respond to what i said.  I just typed up a whole damn theory there, and you're just gonna call it nonsense. Appeal to ridicule much?


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13509709 -

You say things disperse and then group together again.  That's the philosophical belief before we discovered atoms.  I think Aristotle was the first one to come up with that idea, that the universe is all made of the same stuff, maybe Plato, I forget.  Now we know that's fact, but they're just atoms, not tiny pieces of consciousness, or whatever you want to call it.


--------------------
Mushrooms | LSD | Salvia | JWH-018 | AM-2201 |  4-AcO-DMT | 2C-E | 2C-I | 5-MeO-DMTs | 5-MeO-DALT | 5-MeO-MIPT | 25C-NBOMe | MDPV | Methylone | Mephedrone | Nitrous Oxide | Alcohol | DXM | Methoxetamine |  4-MeO-PCP | Xanax | Valium | Phenazepam |  Ambien | Lunesta

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: CycleThoughts]
    #13509745 -

Yes but those little atoms can arrange themselves and produce consciousness.  And if they're arranged like this in the physical brain, maybe there is a non-local arrangement that plays a part in consciousness also.  Which would explain ufo phenomenon and other cosmic shit that regularly happens to humans.


--------------------
check out my music!
drowse in prison and your waking will be but loss

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Re: Why reincarnation doesn't make sense... [Re: g00ru]
    #13509754 -

guruu said:
You could at least respond to what i said.  I just typed up a whole damn theory there, and you're just gonna call it nonsense. Appeal to ridicule much?



Once again, you misunderstand what a theory is, so there is little to challenge. Stringing together disjointed thoughts does not even vaguely constitute a theory.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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