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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The real question: what/where/how is subjective experience? [Re: teknix]
    #12667425 -

I'm just playing devil's advocate, but there are those who would say that if the full extent of your opinion on a topic (be it cognition or anything else) is only "we can't explain it," then you should shut the fuck up and go home.

I think this is especially true in the case of cognition, because it seems to me that there are neuroscientists and mathematicians who are making real headway on the problem, and all the while they're doing this, there's a whole crowd of people saying "you're doing it wrong, that's not what cognition is."
Meanwhile these same people have produced no theory themselves nor are they doing anything that can really be called investigation.

Even if the computational theory of consciousness is incomplete, it's a hell of a lot better than a theoretical vacuum or obtuse mysticism.


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Weedmaster P knows the truth.

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Re: The real question: what/where/how is subjective experience? [Re: laserpig]
    #12667603 -

Everything we experience would be impossible without a series of  'If this... then this, this or this' (computational) processes.
Awareness / consciousness is everything we [knew / continue to know we] experience(d)

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Re: The real question: what/where/how is subjective experience? [Re: laserpig]
    #12667690 -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-minds_interpretation

One of the central problems in interpretation of quantum theory is the duality of time evolution of physical systems:

1.Unitary evolution by the Schrödinger equation
2.Nondeterministic, nonunitary change during measurement of physical observables, at which time the system "selects" a single value in the range of possible values for the observable. This process is known as wavefunction collapse. Moreover, the process of observation occurs outside the system, which presents a problem on its own if one considers the universe itself to be a quantum system. This is known as the measurement problem.
In the introduction to his paper, The Problem Of Conscious Observation In Quantum Mechanical Description (June, 2000) H. D. Zeh offered an empirical basis for connecting the processes involved in (2) with conscious observation:

John von Neumann seems to have first clearly pointed out the conceptual difficulties that arise when one attempts to formulate the physical process underlying subjective observation within quantum theory. He emphasized the latter’s incompatibility with a psycho-physical parallelism, the traditional way of reducing the act of observation to a physical process. Based on the assumption of a physical reality in space and time, one either assumes a coupling (causal relationship — one-way or bidirectional) of matter and mind, or disregards the whole problem by retreating to pure behaviorism. However, even this may remain problematic when one attempts to describe classical behavior in quantum mechanical terms. Neither position can be upheld without fundamental modifications in a consistent quantum mechanical description of the physical world.

(BTW you make a pretty believable devil)

^.^

Edited by teknix (06/01/10 05:31 PM)

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Re: The real question: what/where/how is subjective experience? [Re: laserpig]
    #12668318 -

laserpig said:
The alternate view is that anyone who approaches consciousness as if it were NOT the brain, will never actually have a subject for their inquiry.
They're talking about nothing. :shrug:


That's not really correct.  Consciousness can be approached, and should be approached, as the subject matter it is: philosophical.  The brain is a subject for science; the mind is a subject for philosophy.  Both fields are necessary because scientists cannot answer philosophical questions though they oftentimes thinks they can.


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Re: The real question: what/where/how is subjective experience? [Re: laserpig]
    #12668389 -

laserpig said:
I'm just playing devil's advocate, but there are those who would say that if the full extent of your opinion on a topic (be it cognition or anything else) is only "we can't explain it," then you should shut the fuck up and go home.

I think this is especially true in the case of cognition, because it seems to me that there are neuroscientists and mathematicians who are making real headway on the problem, and all the while they're doing this, there's a whole crowd of people saying "you're doing it wrong, that's not what cognition is."


Making headway?  lol I guess that depends on what you consider headway.  I don't know who this crowd is but if they are philosophers it is their field that defines what cognition is, not scientists.  Scientists, with typical "scientific" hubris, tend to think of themselves as the sole arbiter of truth; those infatuated with science are worse.

laserpig said:
Meanwhile these same people have produced no theory themselves nor are they doing anything that can really be called investigation.

Even if the computational theory of consciousness is incomplete, it's a hell of a lot better than a theoretical vacuum or obtuse mysticism.


There are plenty of philosophical theories on how the mind works.  But philosophers don't investigate.  They don't need to.  So there really isn't a vacuum, only philosophical answers that disprove inane materialistic hypotheses and theories.  The same philosophical evidence that shreds the materialistic idea that the mind is the brain also shreds mystical ideas of the mind and consciousness.

One thing is for sure.  Both fields need each other to solve the problem.  It's the prefect example of a mixed question.


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Re: The real question: what/where/how is subjective experience? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12675331 -

I think once you realise the mind cannot be objectively measured, you should not fall into hopeless abandon and think 'well theres no point to talking about it then'. Rather you can then start thinking about what that means... spiritually. Saying NO to a science of the mind is not being hopeless.. it is opening one's eyes to the true beauty of the world... the fact that it goes beyond the limits of our understanding... the fact that we can even understand the limits of our understanding in the first place. (actually, many people actually can't, it seems, and think that either we can know everything or else knowledge becomes meaningless)


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Re: The real question: what/where/how is subjective experience? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12677168 -

That's a good point, but it depends on what you mean by "objectively measured."


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Re: The real question: what/where/how is subjective experience? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12677622 -

I guess you could say simply 'measurable'


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Re: The real question: what/where/how is subjective experience? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12677639 -

Or observable.

The mind is that which cannot be seen or measured, a very good point.  :thumbup:


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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