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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11358482 -

I did practice for many months at a time. Maybe up to a year at one time.

What are the jhanas?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11358505 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

Edited by rebus_minus (10/31/09 06:14 PM)

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11358527 -

Still trying to find out how I did it wrong. :lol: I usually sat for about an hour. I rarely did longer periods. I do admit it was quite relaxing. I still do it sometimes. I especially enjoy the body scan.

? It seems a bit silly to demand that everything has to be a debate with empirical written proof brought to the table. We should be able to converse about these things even though the forum is mainly debate oriented.


No not a problem occasionally but  what if that's basically all you ever bring to this forum. Like your pal Cronic for example. He's very much like Fivepointer.

I'm guessing he thinks that other forum is kind of silly, yet he can't see the forest for the trees.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" *DELETED* [Re: Icelander]
    #11358563 -

Post deleted by rebus_minus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Icelander]
    #11358691 -

Icelander said:
It's not about not thinking. It's about thinking in a healthy, skillful, productive manner. If we could do that, there would be a lot less to think about.


I don't have a problem with this, self-knowledge is earned by introspection, but presupposing that passive observation is proper introspection is a logical contradiction that the practice of 'mindfulness' presents. As you point out, in order to introspect properly requires a whole lot of skilful thinking.

The practice of mindfulness claims a goal that it cannot achieve by its methods. As it ignores the relationship between introspection and reason and attempts to replace cognitio0n with mere perception, a better description for the practice would be 'mindlessness'.

Edited by RationalEgo (10/31/09 07:07 PM)

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11358704 -

I never said that meditation doesn't have benefits or use as a tool for mental health.

If it quiets the mind then that's good. Does it completely create a state where no thought exists and one is in direct contact with the source of everything. Well I'm sorry but I'm not very sure of that one. And that's what is being postulated without evidence as absolutely true. Well I have direct experience it is not true and so do billions of others.  Of course however we have not tried hard enough, any of us, but what can ya do.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11358731 -

rebus_minus said:
Most human behaviour is unconscious and mechanistic. People are already automatons stuck in loops of habits and drowned in concepts.

This stuff about zombies is very ignorant and populistic.


This pre-supposes a whole lot of generalities about people at large. I do not subscribe to the idea that people are already 'sheep' or 'automotons' and it would be very arrogant of me to assume such.

What I can deduce however form what is being claimed (that perception is somehow a 'refinement' of cognition, and that introspection is possible without thinking) is that the mystics methods subvert ones mode of cognition in favor of a purely perceptual orientated state akin to a zombie or a full frontal lobotomy patient to be more precise. That is why I chose the term and I think it apt given the context.

Edited by RationalEgo (10/31/09 07:04 PM)

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Silversoul]
    #11358969 -

Silversoul said:
I am implying no such thing.  Consciousness is more an action than a thing.  I'm talking about de-centering one's consciousness so as to make oneself aware of the ambient phenomena you otherwise would be unaware of.  Kind of like how getting away from the city lights can help make the stars more visible.


Again I will ask you, what is this 'ambient phenomena'? You are being purposely obscure.

Quote:
But even thoughts drift from one thing to the next.  The point is that so long as your mind continues its constant chatter, it is avoiding being present in the moment.


Constant chatter? Are you implying that thinking is 'mindless chatter'? As my initial post illustrates you are positing that one can be present without thinking. Thinking and reasoning is not 'mindless chatter' and unlike passive observation, thinking and reasoning can root one firmly in the 'present'.

An interesting note is that I can logically see how passive observation of thoughts could lead to the kind of mental laziness associated with 'mindless chatter'. Perhaps that is what people experience in vegetation?

Quote:
Again, you misinterpret me.  I have not even brought up emotions.  Neurological studies have shown that emotions are actually essential to reason.  What I'm talking about is the pre-rational, archetypal levels of consciousness.  This is what psychology tries to uncover.  I would refer you to Nathaniel Branden's book, The Disowned Self.


I will give that book a read, but I reject this idea of 'pre-rational' archetypes as more useless drivel passed down from Plato through the words of Jung.

Quote:
Once again you misinterpret me(there seems to be a pattern here).  When I speak of pure experience, I'm not talking about experience of nothing.  I'm talking about experience of nothing in particular -- a defocused level of awareness, sort of like exercising your mind's peripheral vision.


So your ideal state of 'unfocused awareness' is passive observation nothing in particular at all? Of what use is this state to anyone?

Quote:
Wrong.  It is specifically about mindfulness meditation.  You're being deliberately ignorant here, and that is a product of a psyche that has not integrated its shadows.  You love to denounce you not only don't understand, but refuse to understand, and that makes you irrational.  Good day, sir.


Way to psychologize about someone through an internet forum, you are really showing your colors here. I am not ignorant about the subject of 'mindfulness' and have read many books on mysticism and meditation. I am denouncing it because I do understand and my understanding of the subject has been illustrated throughout this thread. In your view becuase I do not accept the claims of mystics I am being irrational. Well sir, that makes you irrational.

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11359179 -

what do you guys feel about this video? do you think what hes saying is accurate concerning the goals of meditation?


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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11359210 -


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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Life Upon Death]
    #11359215 -

:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11359290 -

RationalEgo said:
Again I will ask you, what is this 'ambient phenomena'? You are being purposely obscure.


Do you understand what the word "ambient" means?  It refers to the subconscious background, which is obscured by conscious focus on something.

Quote:
Constant chatter? Are you implying that thinking is 'mindless chatter'? As my initial post illustrates you are positing that one can be present without thinking. Thinking and reasoning is not 'mindless chatter' and unlike passive observation, thinking and reasoning can root one firmly in the 'present'.


I am not denouncing thinking, but I am talking about observation of the one who is doing the thinking.  In a meditative state, one is aware of one's thoughts in a way that they are not when they are immersed in those thoughts.

Quote:
An interesting note is that I can logically see how passive observation of thoughts could lead to the kind of mental laziness associated with 'mindless chatter'. Perhaps that is what people experience in vegetation?


There is nothing lazy about mindfulness meditation.  It actually requires a great deal of work and practice.

Quote:
So your ideal state of 'unfocused awareness' is passive observation nothing in particular at all? Of what use is this state to anyone?


When you stop looking for things, you can start noticing them instead.  Paradoxically, such practices can train the mind to focus even more than before.  Experienced meditators can hold a thought much longer than a layman.  They are also able to control their emotions and their actions to a greater degree.  Thus, meditation training can actually increase the degree of one's free will.

Quote:
Way to psychologize about someone through an internet forum, you are really showing your colors here. I am not ignorant about the subject of 'mindfulness' and have read many books on mysticism and meditation. I am denouncing it because I do understand and my understanding of the subject has been illustrated throughout this thread. In your view becuase I do not accept the claims of mystics I am being irrational. Well sir, that makes you irrational.


I am NOT asking you to accept the claims of mystics.  I am asking you to accept the demonstrated results of mysticism from numerous studies in psychology and neuroscience.


--------------------

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: rebus_minus]
    #11361194 -

rebus_minus said:
How long would you usually practice in one sitting? Did you ever push yourself to sit for many hours just to experiment on what would change? Did you ever try to adjust your behavioiur in between to see how that influenced your states of concentration? This is why many take the precept, because they learn to discern how stuff we do affects our mind on very subtle levels.

The jhanas are the different stages of absorbtion than one reaches when the mind is really settled. I have never experienced such happiness even on e. But how can I prove it?


I wouldn't recommend sitting for long periods for everyone
As intent, expectation, desire etc... can then come into it
Meditation has then become some practice to 'get somewhere'
To experience some special 'state'
Rather then just looking, watching, observing, being aware of the minds movement in order to understand the nature of Reality

There comes a time in meditation when you realize
EVERYTHING you ever experience, will pass
If it passes, its not worth attaching to...
Then meditation really 'happens'
Non-attachment to any state, no matter how blissfull or fearful
It doesnt really 'happen' tho...
Awareness is already perfectly unattached
It just recognizing, i am Awareness, not the phenomena
Then allow the phenomena full expression rather than attach to it


Attachment (which is only mental) is the crucial factor in meditation
Planning to sit for 3 hours can be hugely attached to a practice!
Even seeing is as a 'crucial factor' can be attachment!
It wears many disguises, even that is attachment!


Perhaps in meditation find out - who meditates, to get where?
Not cynically, but rationally, if i get to somewhere other than 'here'
For how long will it last?

:peace:


--------------------

Edited by Chronic7 (11/01/09 09:22 AM)

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Chronic7]
    #11361283 -

Chronic777 said:
Its impossible to observe without thinking?

I know that it is possible & it takes no effort, just observing

:peace:


what is possible,
is to see what just went on
it could have been a thought
it could have been a sound or a flash of light
always something just happened
and you can observe that

this is a kind of mental activity that is not quite the same as thinking
(which keeps working the connections - associative tripping out)
and it is more interested or keen than dissociative

in any case, it is important to have an active mind.
either way


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: redgreenvines]
    #11361296 -

redgreenvines said:
what is possible,
is to see what just went on
it could have been a thought
it could have been a sound or a flash of light
always something just happened
and you can observe that

this is a kind of mental activity that is not quite the same as thinking
(which keeps working the connections - associative tripping out)
and it is more interested or keen than dissociative

in any case, it is important to have an active mind.
either way


less 'thinking' about things as they are
more 'noticing' things as they are...
its still a mental process, an active mind
its just not so de-liberating over things

i seem to sometimes come across as no-mind, just blank
but i really mean fully active mind, total vigilance
but vigilance thats relaxed, if that makes any sense at all :wink:

:peace:


--------------------

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Chronic7]
    #11361326 -

Ii seem to sometimes come across as no-mind, just blank
but i really mean fully active mind, total vigilance
but vigilance thats relaxed, if that makes any sense at all :wink:


well this is the only way it makes any sense to me. Actually this is the basic technique of RET or Ken Keyes technique in his book "Handbook to Higher Consciousness" It's good psychology. I do it in a hap hazard way. As I walk and notice a mood, lets say negative, I watch what my mind is saying to itself, especially (if you can) what the thoughts were right before one became conscious of a mood. Then it's plain to see that thoughts create the mood. Then (and you might not agree with this part) you can rationally dispute the thoughts or not. You would just notice them and maybe that would be enough, for others that rational disputation is enough to show that there was no reality to the thoughts. I have done this myself and it works. Of course that vigilance is work. The mind chatter has momentum of inertia and so it's easy to just let it flow. To stop that flow over and over takes patience and practice. I tend to fall in and out of it. If you watch my posts over time you can see this happening in me.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Icelander]
    #11361367 -

At first it can seem like a thinking process, to notice the thoughts & leave them
To see through their processes...

Its really just an inner remembering that its leading nowhere
An intuitive process of remembering & seeing that these thoughts arent serving me
So then you cut it off... you see its going nowhere, its neurotic, then dont follow it anymore
Yove become conscious of what was previously subconscious

I see it like thinning out, refining the mind
Dealing with the world all we have been doing is investigating with the mind
Rather than investigating what mind itself is

The patience is the practice :wink:

:peace:


--------------------

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Chronic7]
    #11361377 -

Mind, is it a problem? Or is the problem it's unhealthy functioning?

I know a few people who at least in certain areas have what I call a healthy functioning mind. It's a pure pleasure to be around them at times.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Icelander]
    #11361390 -

Not a problem, only a problem when its unhealthy like you say
The best medicine is emptiness, to completely see through all mind
To see even 'health' is mind, as health is inevitably prone to disease

:peace:


--------------------

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Re: "Be Present" they say "But don't think!" [Re: Chronic7]
    #11361407 -

Well I'm not going to quibble about this as I truly don't know.

Here's what I believe however. The major portion of humanity would benefit from the psychological processes of working toward a healthy mind. Will they do it? Likely not.

But if they were to try it might be easier for them to work with something like RET than trying to have an "empty mind".

But that works for you, you say, and that's enough for you.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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