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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Are we all 100% completely selfish?
    #11338190 -

:justdontknow:
Are we all 100% completely selfish?
You may choose only one


Votes accepted from 10/28/09 12:35 PM until the end of time
You must vote before you can view the results of this poll



--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11338215 -

No, but non-egoism seems like a contradiction, though the ego can idealize its destruction asa  cog for a greater power.

If we are 100% selfish then why have people died for other people? Why have soldiers, on a whim, jumped on grenades?


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: andrewss]
    #11338219 -

andrewss said:
If we are 100% selfish then why have people died for other people? Why have soldiers, on a whim, jumped on grenades?

So you believe in altruism? :strokebeard:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11338220 -

I had shellfish for lunch! Yum.


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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11338237 -

If we were 100% completely selfLESS then we would never care for ourselves.


--------------------
Dont forget to stop and smell your flowers

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11338238 -

Poid said:
andrewss said:
If we are 100% selfish then why have people died for other people? Why have soldiers, on a whim, jumped on grenades?

So you believe in altruism? :strokebeard:


One can believe in altruism? Altrusim exists, is it THE ideal... dunno bout that....


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11338275 -

i am 99.9999328% selfish.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11338281 -

Yes

Living with the ego, everything is about self, this particular body

Living without the ego, its still all about Self, just the real Self that is in all the bodies...

So rather than living in service to the individual self
Your living in service to your universal Self

It is still selfishness, just a truer selfishness :lol:
Ego selfishness is ugly, universal selfishness is beautiful


:peace:


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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11338326 -

if we were all 100% selfish, nobody would care for another
you can't tell me nobody cares for anybody.
sure it's been debated that ultimately it does serve our best interest whether we care for someone or not.  but i don't think that has to do with the actual definition of selfishness.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: deranger]
    #11338366 -

the only reason people care for others is cause they share their pain
we can share it as deep down we are one Self

so even if your in service to 'others' you are still in service to your one Self
so selfishness is unavoidable
egoic selfisheness is destroyable...

:peace:


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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Chronic7]
    #11338406 -

is the dictionary using that definition of self in it's definition of selfishness?

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: deranger]
    #11338504 -

probably not :shrug:

my point is even altruism, selfless action, is still the Self in service to Self
its totally different from egoic selfishness though, which is probably what the dictionaries reference is

the paradox is that if you focus on your Self 100%
literally focus consciousness only on Self, your ego will be destroyed & all the altruism will come

:peace:


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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Chronic7]
    #11338595 -

Is there such things as a truly altruistic action?

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11338614 -

I certainly am.

Most people however are not.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Chronic7]
    #11338630 -

Chronic777 said:
probably not :shrug:

my point is even altruism, selfless action, is still the Self in service to Self
its totally different from egoic selfishness though, which is probably what the dictionaries reference is

the paradox is that if you focus on your Self 100%
literally focus consciousness only on Self, your ego will be destroyed & all the altruism will come

:peace:


i see your point, but if Poid is going to ask a question we best not be redefining terms if we don't want a confused thread.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: deranger]
    #11338644 -

deranger said:
if we were all 100% selfish, nobody would care for another
you can't tell me nobody cares for anybody.
sure it's been debated that ultimately it does serve our best interest whether we care for someone or not.  but i don't think that has to do with the actual definition of selfishness.



I call bullshit on this. If you were 100% selfish you would protect your values and never sacrifice them becuase they are what bring you happiness in life. This obviously means that you care deeply for those you value. Selfishness does not imply sacrifice of any kind, in fact it implies the opposite. Now an altruist can never care for another becuase he sacrifices his values at every opportunity. It is the standard of his morality to do so. If he cares it means there is a trace of selfishness. If you hold altruism as the standard then you admit that happiness is not your central purpose as you are a total slave to the whims of others.

The question that no altruists asks is this. If the good in life is to sacrifice ones values to others, then what of the morality of those who receive those values? Are they not evil for receiving those values? Should they not in turn sacrifice those values until everyone has nothing, as that is the standard of the good?

If you truly believe in altruism ask yourself these honest questions and envision what kind of world following that creed would create.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11338692 -

Good Question.  I don't like to think we're 100% selfish... but it could be argued like this:

Statement: We are 100% selfish

Rebuttal:  We are not 100% selfish because of charity, or 'good deeds'

Counter:  Charity and Good deeds are done to make one feel better about themselves and thus, it is selfish.


--------------------
Spectaculorum procedere debet





:mushroom2: :beer:

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11338734 -

RationalEgo said:
I call bullshit on this. If you were 100% selfish you would protect your values and never sacrifice them becuase they are what bring you happiness in life.  This obviously means that you care deeply for those you value.


self·ish    (sěl'fĭsh) 
adj. 

  1.

      Concerned chiefly or only with oneself:


if this did mean concerned with only oneself and one's values, one could care for another, making the definition of selfishness contradictory imo.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: deranger]
    #11338773 -

deranger said:
RationalEgo said:
I call bullshit on this. If you were 100% selfish you would protect your values and never sacrifice them becuase they are what bring you happiness in life.  This obviously means that you care deeply for those you value.


self�ish    (sěl'fĭsh) 
adj. 

  1.

      Concerned chiefly or only with oneself:


if this did mean concerned with only oneself and one's values, one could care for another, making the definition of selfishness contradictory imo.


Chiefly concerned with oneself implies that ones central purpose is ones own happiness, which of course includes all of ones values. Caring for others whom one values increases ones happiness. There is no contradiction in this.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11338801 -

when does the only come into play?  when selfishness has reached 100%?

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: deranger]
    #11338849 -

deranger said:
when does the only come into play?


Unless you are blind, deaf, dumb and paralysed, never.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11338855 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
I had shellfish for lunch! Yum.

How selfish of you to eat the dead corpse of a sea creature for your own pleasure. :nonono:



newshOne said:
If we were 100% completely selfLESS then we would never care for ourselves.

Big 'if'! :rofl2:



andrewss said:
Poid said:
andrewss said:
If we are 100% selfish then why have people died for other people? Why have soldiers, on a whim, jumped on grenades?

So you believe in altruism? :strokebeard:


One can believe in altruism? Altrusim exists, is it THE ideal... dunno bout that....

There's no such thing as an altruistic act.

/of.



deranger said:
i am 99.9999328% selfish.

Explain yourself! :mad:



Chronic777 said:
Yes

Finally we can agree on something! :robblerobble:



deranger said:
if we were all 100% selfish, nobody would care for another
you can't tell me nobody cares for anybody.
sure it's been debated that ultimately it does serve our best interest whether we care for someone or not.  but i don't think that has to do with the actual definition of selfishness.

I feel love for my family sometimes because doing so makes me feel good. :sadyes:




MycoUnderground said:
Is there such things as a truly altruistic action?

:shake:



RationalEgo said:
Most people however are not.

Can you elaborate? :strokebeard:




RationalEgo said:
deranger said:
if we were all 100% selfish, nobody would care for another
you can't tell me nobody cares for anybody.
sure it's been debated that ultimately it does serve our best interest whether we care for someone or not.  but i don't think that has to do with the actual definition of selfishness.



I call bullshit on this. If you were 100% selfish you would protect your values and never sacrifice them becuase they are what bring you happiness in life. This obviously means that you care deeply for those you value. Selfishness does not imply sacrifice of any kind, in fact it implies the opposite. Now an altruist can never care for another becuase he sacrifices his values at every opportunity. It is the standard of his morality to do so. If he cares it means there is a trace of selfishness. If you hold altruism as the standard then you admit that happiness is not your central purpose as you are a total slave to the whims of others.

The question that no altruists asks is this. If the good in life is to sacrifice ones values to others, then what of the morality of those who receive those values? Are they not evil for receiving those values? Should they not in turn sacrifice those values until everyone has nothing, as that is the standard of the good?

If you truly believe in altruism ask yourself these honest questions and envision what kind of world following that creed would create.

Damn, that was deep! :mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:

Oh wait, you opted out...:facepalm:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11338935 -

RationalEgo said:
deranger said:
when does the only come into play?


Unless you are blind, deaf, dumb and paralysed, never.


bull

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: deranger]
    #11338961 -

deranger said:
RationalEgo said:
deranger said:
when does the only come into play?


Unless you are blind, deaf, dumb and paralysed, never.


bull



Granted, possibly it is. But it depends on your definition. If to only think of yourself you imply that yourself is an isolated thing divorced from the world of values, then my statement holds true. If however you are implying that to 'only' think of yourself means to only think of ones values, then it is absolutely possible to think of others and every other values in the world around you.

Edited by RationalEgo (10/28/09 03:33 PM)

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11339001 -

RationalEgo said:
Now an altruist can never care for another becuase he sacrifices his values at every opportunity. It is the standard of his morality to do so. If he cares it means there is a trace of selfishness.


a man is threatening to jump off a bridge and there is a crowd.
someone comes and talks him out of it and succeeds.

a. he was being selfish
b. he was being altruistic

which is more accurate?

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: deranger]
    #11339032 -

deranger said:
RationalEgo said:
Now an altruist can never care for another becuase he sacrifices his values at every opportunity. It is the standard of his morality to do so. If he cares it means there is a trace of selfishness.


a man is threatening to jump off a bridge and there is a crowd.
someone comes and talks him out of it and succeeds.

a. he was being selfish
b. he was being altruistic

which is more accurate?



That's a life-boat scenario divorced from the entire context of life and the pursuit of values.

I would say the decision to save the man would be entirley a 'sense of life' issue in this circumstance meaning that it depends on how much the man values human life in general.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11339153 -

The tail end of this thread is exactly why people and their comments on things can often suck balls and be a bunch of bullshit... this is gettin into one big semantical debate. Sometimes people just on a whim do something that they would/people in general would consider objectivly good - and this often times works out in life - and I see no need for 100% consistency, duh!


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: andrewss]
    #11339217 -

Is that your final answer? :strokebeard2:




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11339262 -

I'll stick with it


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11339324 -

If you were you couldn't live with yourself.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: andrewss]
    #11339328 -

hey... our debate wasn't as bad as some in the past :tongue:

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: andrewss]
    #11339479 -

Ahimsa said:
If you were you couldn't live with yourself.

Why do you say this? :confused:



andrewss said:
I'll stick with it

Then you lose the grand prize. :money:

:sorry:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11339573 -

Poid said:
Ahimsa said:
If you were you couldn't live with yourself.


Why do you say this? :confused:


Being 100% selfish turns you into a heartless person. Imo altruism is the best selfishness. :smirk:

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11339589 -

Ahimsa said:
Poid said:
Ahimsa said:
If you were you couldn't live with yourself.


Why do you say this? :confused:


Being 100% selfish turns you into a heartless person. Imo altruism is the best selfishness. :smirk:


Thats total nonsense.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11339601 -

Selfish only care about themselves.
So they don't care about me.
Well let them have fun with themselves.
I'll have fun with my friends.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11339633 -

Ahimsa said:
Selfish only care about themselves.


Also nonsense.

How many more cliché bromides do you want to spout?

I thought this was the Philosophy forum where people were meant to think?

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11339655 -

I don't really mix well with people who only care for their own concerns and benefits.
They are always selfish and i try to avoid them because they feel heartless.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11339684 -

Ahimsa said:
I don't really mix well with people who only care for their own concerns and benefits.
They are always selfish and i try to avoid them because they feel heartless.


So you are saying that you would rather mix with people who do not have any concern about you and do not derive any benefit from your company, than people who value you and therefore consider you one of their 'concerns' and benefit from your company?

I think you have a false dichotomy going on between your ideas of selflessness and selfishness.

See my above posts for further clarification if you selfishly value my posts.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11339827 -

I may be wrong, but selfish people seek my company for their benefit, at my expense.
At least, that's how i see 100% selfish people.

Being among people and sharing each others presence for a collective benefit is totally different ballgame than those who only seek to exploit you. And that is what i mean by selfisness.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Ahimsa]
    #11339901 -

Ahimsa said:
I may be wrong, but selfish people seek my company for their benefit, at my expense.
At least, that's how i see 100% selfish people.

Being among people and sharing each others presence for a collective benefit is totally different ballgame than those who only seek to exploit you. And that is what i mean by selfisness.


That is where you get your improper notion, selfishness should not imply that one expects others to sacrifice values to you disregarding moral conduct. It is one of those bromidal false dichotomies that forces you to accept the alternate as the good, in this case 'selflessness'. 

One values others becuase they are adding to your own enjoyment and happiness in life in a rational way. One can never gain happiness from exploiting others as those actions can never result in the necessary self-esteem to attain happiness. In fact immoral actions destroy self-esteem wherever a sacrifice is taking place.

Selflessness always holds as a standard a sacrifice of values to others. It is always improper and antithetical to ones own happiness to do anything out of a sense of 'selfless' duty divorced from reason and objective values. I would never befriend a person who considers selflessness the basis of moral action.

As I am not going to repeat myself please see my previous posts for clarification on what I mean by that.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11339926 -

Thank you for clearing that up.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11340900 -

RationalEgo said:
Ahimsa said:
I may be wrong, but selfish people seek my company for their benefit, at my expense.
At least, that's how i see 100% selfish people.

Being among people and sharing each others presence for a collective benefit is totally different ballgame than those who only seek to exploit you. And that is what i mean by selfisness.


That is where you get your improper notion, selfishness should not imply that one expects others to sacrifice values to you disregarding moral conduct. It is one of those bromidal false dichotomies that forces you to accept the alternate as the good, in this case 'selflessness'. 

One values others becuase they are adding to your own enjoyment and happiness in life in a rational way. One can never gain happiness from exploiting others as those actions can never result in the necessary self-esteem to attain happiness. In fact immoral actions destroy self-esteem wherever a sacrifice is taking place.

Selflessness always holds as a standard a sacrifice of values to others. It is always improper and antithetical to ones own happiness to do anything out of a sense of 'selfless' duty divorced from reason and objective values. I would never befriend a person who considers selflessness the basis of moral action.

As I am not going to repeat myself please see my previous posts for clarification on what I mean by that.


I think you need to explain that stuff more.......


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: andrewss]
    #11341266 -

No, we aren't.

'Sacrifice.'
If we were all 100% completely selfish, then we wouldn't give up things of value for another's benefit.


--------------------
"You can peel it [language] off the ceiling and make it dance in front of you" - McKenna

<3 .

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Cynosure]
    #11341304 -

Does that argument hold a lot of weight? :haha:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11341423 -

I fail to see why not, as I have experienced giving up something of personal value for a random person's benefit (with no positive outcome to my Self).  I have placed someone else's situation above my own.. thus, making me not 100% selfish.

Could you throw enough weight on it to break it?

Edited by Cynosure (10/28/09 08:18 PM)

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Cynosure]
    #11342283 -

I have already thrown enough weight on it in this thread already. Your assumptions have been broken.

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Re: Are we all 100% completely selfish? [Re: Poid]
    #11343302 -

Poid said:
:justdontknow:



:failboat:  But the photo in your sig is food for thought and  :eatingout:


--------------------

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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