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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11002661 -

Principle does not decide itself on a case by case basis.  You can not be on the fence.  By not taking a side you are by default taking a side, whether you realize it or not.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002700 -

What's to be gained by sticking to a principle that might not be the best in all cases? Do you think there's some value in saying "I made the wrong choice, but at least I stuck to my principles"? No. In the real world, we should make the best possible choice at all times. Principles have no bearing on that.

Quote:
By not taking a side you are by default taking a side, whether you realize it or not.


Which side have I taken, cat or dog?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002992 -

fivepointer said:
zouden said:
It is relevant when you're speaking like an authority on capitalism. You're saying that you can't be in favour of capitalism and socialism; you're either a capitalist or a socialist. I think that's just as incorrect as saying you can't be a catholic and a christian, an attitude that you've espoused many times before. That puts your comment into context.


The principle of capitalism (individual rights) verse socialism (collective rights) can not be reconciled.  The two are at polar opposites on base foundations.

Christianity verses Catholicism are opposed as well.  Salvation by works (Catholicism) verses salvation by grace (Christianity) are opposed at a very basic level.


Do you believe Capitalism is based on human rights?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11003022 -

Anything forced isn't good. Any state telling the people how to live is not good, rule by the majority or rule by the few ; it's still tyranny.


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

Edited by explosiveoxygen (09/05/09 05:39 AM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11003045 -

So you think it's not good that you aren't allowed to rape people? I think some degree of "tyranny by the majority" is okay - I'm happy to live in a society with laws, because it's better than the alternative.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11003086 -

zouden said:
So you think it's not good that you aren't allowed to rape people? I think some degree of "tyranny by the majority" is okay - I'm happy to live in a society with laws, because it's better than the alternative.


Nobody is saying no laws.  The only laws would be to enforce equal negative liberty, meaning every person has a right to life and liberty.  Raping would be a violation this principle.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11003097 -

Kukaracha said:
fivepointer said:
zouden said:
It is relevant when you're speaking like an authority on capitalism. You're saying that you can't be in favour of capitalism and socialism; you're either a capitalist or a socialist. I think that's just as incorrect as saying you can't be a catholic and a christian, an attitude that you've espoused many times before. That puts your comment into context.


The principle of capitalism (individual rights) verse socialism (collective rights) can not be reconciled.  The two are at polar opposites on base foundations.

Christianity verses Catholicism are opposed as well.  Salvation by works (Catholicism) verses salvation by grace (Christianity) are opposed at a very basic level.


Do you believe Capitalism is based on human rights?


Individual rights are human rights, collective rights is tyranny.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11003101 -

How do you define liberty? Do we have the liberty to travel safely on our roads? If so, does that override the liberty of people to drive as fast as they want? Without a clear answer, the obvious solution is to ask the people what they want. Then we're back to the tyranny of the majority. It's still better than the alternative though.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11003188 -

Liberty is the right to do what you want with your person and property up to effecting the equal right of others to do what they want with their person and property.

As for roads, which are property, the owner of the property sets conditions for who can stay on the property.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11003720 -

This might be a good opening for me to talk about Georgism, which in my opinion preserves the best aspects of both capitalism and socialism.  The basic philosophy behind it is that one should have private ownership over the product of one's labor, but since no person created the earth, the gifts of nature belong to all mankind in common(or, if you want to get theological, the Earth belongs to God, and we are but stewards of this planet).  It particularly applies this insight to land.  This doesn't mean that your neighbor gets to roam around in your backyard, but it does mean that you should pay for the privilege of taking land or natural resources out of the commons.  This is done through a high land value tax(LVT).  Since land is fixed in supply, a land value tax would not raise the cost of land, but would merely shift the cost from selling price to taxes(in other words, you would only be paying to the government what you would otherwise be paying to the bank).

In his 1879 bestseller Progress and Poverty, Henry George explained how private collection of land rent robs society of wealth by individually appropriating wealth that is not created by any individual, but rather by society as a whole.  This, he found, is the reason why poverty persists amidst great economic progress(hence the name of the book).  Land rents often get lumped in with capital returns as profit, so it is not apparent to people that the returns of capital and labor go down as rents increase.  This is further obscured as some of those rents end up in stock market prices, thus spreading around the profit to shareholders who don't directly own the land, but have a share in its profit.  There is nothing wrong with sharing the rent, but it should be shared by society at large, not by a select group of stockholders.

I could try to go into detail about how rents are created and how they affect the economy, but I'll save myself some time by providing links:

Capital, Interest, and Profits
The Law of Rent
The Dog in the Manger
The Boom-Bust Cycle

So basically, I have no problem with people working and producing and not being taxed one dime for their productivity.  However, activities which appropriate wealth from the commons should be taxed to the full extent of their impact, so that the commons can be reclaimed and poverty can be eliminated.


--------------------

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11003868 -

Well, do you consider what we call "the human rights" to be universal?

And also, how do you define someone's liberty?
With laws, therefore restraining people; laws are necessary, Explosiveoxygen.

With that being said... individual rights are better than collective rights? What are the differences? And why would there be individual rights when humans live in groups, families, cities...? Isn't there a contradiction there, maybe the roots of individualism?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11004113 -

Quote:
With that being said... individual rights are better than collective rights? What are the differences? And why would there be individual rights when humans live in groups, families, cities...? Isn't there a contradiction there, maybe the roots of individualism?


Individual rights exist exactly because people live in groups and still want to preserve as much as possible from their individual preferences. If each human would live isolated, there wouldn't even be a need for rights.
Asking why should individual rights exist in a scenario where most people live in groups seems like a question that you never gave any real thought, IMO. :shrug2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11005382 -

Fivepointer, what do you think about your collectivist fire department? Would you prefer a capitalist, for-profit fire service? Does the fact that you take advantage of your city's collective fire service mean that you are really a socialist?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11005466 -

TRAITOR! CAT LOVER! COMMIE!


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11006651 -

Wow don't you hate when you miss a page.

So while we are on the subject of how economic systems relate to socioty, I thought I may mention something.

Silversoul's post reminded me of an article I read in adbusters. This article described how the Guatemalan government had named the earth as a legal entity. I have not heard how it is going for them, but just think if the environment had to be reimbursed for every clear-cut, toxic mining experiment or waste management boondoggle. The natural environment, once a economic externality would finally be in the minds of capitalists (even the freemarketeers) as an investments or expenses. Imagine if the public good like schools, fire departments or hospitals were thought of in this way. One could collect from those who inherit the most from the public good and reimburse those funds to ensure it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11006674 -

Kukaracha said:
Well, do you consider what we call "the human rights" to be universal?

And also, how do you define someone's liberty?
With laws, therefore restraining people; laws are necessary, Explosiveoxygen.

What kind of laws are you suggesting? There are thousands of laws and only about a dozen protect freedom and liberty.


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11009858 -

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
With that being said... individual rights are better than collective rights? What are the differences? And why would there be individual rights when humans live in groups, families, cities...? Isn't there a contradiction there, maybe the roots of individualism?


Individual rights exist exactly because people live in groups and still want to preserve as much as possible from their individual preferences. If each human would live isolated, there wouldn't even be a need for rights.
Asking why should individual rights exist in a scenario where most people live in groups seems like a question that you never gave any real thought, IMO. :shrug2:


Well, I am giving it a real thought right now, bu I haven't before, it's true. To my defense, I will say I am pretty young. Thanks for pointing this out anyway. :shrug2:
However, collective and individual rights don't necessarily interfere with each other, do they?

To Explosiveoxygen : imagne a lawless world. Are you freer? I personnally don't think so. Chaos doesn't allow civilization. The only thing you can do is run around, which you can do now too in many places. You cannot travel, since there are no means to do so, you cannot fly, since no one invented planes - why weren't they invented? Well, some guy had a good idea about it, but then he was killed by a man who disagreed with him. His freedom was limited by the strenght of others; meet someone stronger, your freedom is suddenly gone.
Laws actually make civilization possible, it creates many possibilities while guaranteing you a certain minimum and the possibility to live those possibilities.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11010072 -

Indeed. That's why I say that, despite their faults, we have laws and civilisation because it's better than the alternative.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11013336 -

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/cuba/story/1203953.html

Cuba faces toilet paper shortage

Another example of the wonders of socialism.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11013359 -

That's like saying that surgery isn't good because there's examples of really stupid surgeons.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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