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Is Socialism Good
    #10954144 -

Would a socialist system be good for America? People say capitalism means choice but the choices being referred to are the ability to choose between hundreds of different types of orange juice and cereal. The only way a person can believe that capitalism promotes choice is if your identity is based on what you consume. Movies and music in capitalism have been made stupid so that they can appeal to the most people and the result of this is that culture has become barbaric and stupid.

One problem with socialism is it could grant too much power to the state and the result of that is that people could be oppressed by a soulless bureaucracy.

Another problem with socialism is that many socialists identify certain ethical points of view as being part of socialism. I think that someone can be pro-life and be a socialist because socialism is an economic style.


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http://www.dlshq.org/teachings/brahmacharya.htm

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: lines]
    #10954241 -

My gut says no, socialism is pretty lame unless we are talking about a very small society imo


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Jesus loves you.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: lines]
    #10954333 -

Depends what you mean by socialism.  The word gets thrown around so much by supporters and opponents alike that it's practically lost all meaning.

What I interpret socialism to be is an economic system in which the workers own the means of production.  Or, to put it in more concrete terms, there are no capitalists and no wage labor.  Theoretically, this could mean a society in which all business are worker co-ops.  In practice, it usually means that the state is the sole employer, and it runs a command economy, as opposed to a market economy.

Personally, I'm all for worker co-ops, and so I have no problem with socialism in that sense.  But I do have a problem with command economies.  Without a market economy, something as simple as keeping a grocery store stocked with milk becomes an incredibly complex task.  Overproduction and underproduction are sometimes found in capitalism, but they are rampant in a command economy.  Some things just aren't meant to be centrally planned.

That said, I do support some degree of welfare capitalism, as seen in much of Western Europe.  A lot of people confuse such a system with socialism, but in fact entrepreneurism is as common there as it is here.  I don't have a problem with the government intervening in the market in places where it can improve people's quality of life.  I just don't want the government to replace the market.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #10956706 -

The way I see it, all Western countries have a mixed economy. The ratios are different, and the US is more to one side than other countries, but there's no hard line. I think a mixed economy is definitely the way to go. The extreme end on either side (anarcho-capitalism, or communism) would be disastrous.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10957052 -

I think that The US is in the arms of capitalist robber barons, a form of non-authoritarian socialism like worker owned factories and syndicate organizations would assist in refurberishing a lot of the stagnant sectors of the american economy.

However, I can't say I'm a fan of some sort of centralized authoritarian planned economy (same as command economy), ya know the likes of which Russia experienced. However I think such models are only effective at bringing industrialization into an economy from what I've seen. It's actually quite unsuccessful as soon as an economy is industrialized or even worse entering into post-industrialism.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: lines]
    #10957169 -

The United States of America has by far the best type of  government, Capitalist Republic!  We have the Politicians we deserve because we elected them!  If politicians say one thing and do another, vote them out!

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10957287 -

C.M. Mann said:
The United States of America has by far the best type of  government, Capitalist Republic!  We have the Politicians we deserve because we elected them!  If politicians say one thing and do another, vote them out!


I agree all politicians out of office! Too bad most people have very forgiving long/short-term memories.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (08/28/09 07:04 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: C.M. Mann]
    #10957294 -

And how is that different to other Western countries?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10957351 -

zouden said:
And how is that different to other Western countries?


Unlike most western economies takes place in neo-fantasy land.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10957813 -

"In “Economic Calculation in a Socialist Commonwealth,” Ludwig von Mises demonstrates, once and forever, that, under socialist central planning, there are no means of economic calculation and that, therefore, socialist economy itself is “impossible” (“unmöglich”)--not just inefficient or less innovative or conducted without benefit of decentralized knowledge, but really and truly and literally impossible."
- Quote from Joseph T. Salerno

I agree with this entirely, socialism is literally impossible since it has no means of calculation.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10957829 -

It's perfectly possible if socialist is an adjective and not a noun. Some countries have more socialist policies than others.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10957853 -

can you spell co-op-t


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10957943 -

:shrug: when Americans say they are terrified of Obama making their country 'socialist', are they talking about the USSR, or Denmark? Both are socialist to some extent. That's my point.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10960577 -

I dont understand why socialists think that the workers should have the say.

The workers are tools of the employer... they are organised in a certain way and given the means to perform their skills. If they can do without the capitalist employers... then whY dont they?? Because they often need the capitalists for the infrastructure that allows them to work. But the capitalists don't need them, because they can be replaced.

I think that powerful people just need to be checked more. Made responsible for what happens. And also less ridiculous pay-difference brackets. Some people will say that the CEO is in control of a lot so his role is worth a significant portion of the revenue of a company. But if this role really was worth so much, then they should be able to show all the people who are affected by their decisions, so that everyone knows whats going on and appreciate the position of their leaders. Leaders should lead because they are driven internally, not because of money. However, money does act as an incentive for people to spend their full energies in a competitive environment. This often brings results.

I think we should keep our current system but just make the economy more transparent and make the massively wealthy people of the world accountable for all that is going on, because essentially, in most cases, they are.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10960911 -

I dissagree, in my experience the management are usually bigger tools than anyone working for them.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: lines]
    #10961040 -

Goverment = MIND CONTROL!

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ennos]
    #10961044 -

yo momma = fat :tongue2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10961592 -

Noteworthy said:
The workers are tools of the employer... they are organised in a certain way and given the means to perform their skills. If they can do without the capitalist employers... then whY dont they?? Because they often need the capitalists for the infrastructure that allows them to work. But the capitalists don't need them, because they can be replaced.


I think you have a serious misunderstanding of power relations.  Inequality of wealth tends to perpetuate itself.  By paying workers subsistence wages, the workers are unable to obtain capital.  And without capital, they can't start their own businesses.  Also, did you actually just say that the capitalists don't need the workers?!  How is anything supposed to get produced without labor?  The fact that laborers are so replaceable is simply an indication of the imbalance of power.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #10964129 -

are you serious? Maybe your family is different but There are lots of people who immigrated to the western world with next to nothing and worked hard and made the right choices and ended up having property that could support their family.
So I can't take your sentiment seriously when my family and many others got out of poorness through hard work and committed alliances. I myself am a lazy product of their hard work but I appreciate what was done to allow me the comforts that I have been born into.

I will say it again - capitalists don't need workers because there will always be someone else willing to do the work. Workers need capitalists because by themselves, workers do not have the organisational capacity or the trust of investors that is required to turn WORK into a PRODUCT that is then SOLD, at a RATE that can support the WORKERS' lifestyle.

The only valuable people are those with specific irreplacable skills, people with investment/capital, and people with social influence (generally involving power within a business or corporation or organisation).

All of the 'workers' are replacable with other people, that is to say, they are generic and not valuable in themselves.

Being a tradesperson is a good example to inspect. Tradespersons are workers who are in control of their output. They have special skills that general workers do not have. If they can organise themselves with the right tools and transport and advertisement and social networking, then they do not need an employer. However if they simply have some skills and nothing else then they are not much use and must be herded by an organising force.


As for the comment above, that said that management are bigger tools than the workers, I don't know what that means (it could just be an emotional outburst relating to the fact that management has a degree of control over one's life). Care to elabourate?
Remember that many low-level management roles are just as replaceable as the 'workers' that they manage... and so they can just be considered as 'workers' too.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10964139 -

Quote:
I will say it again - capitalists don't need workers because there will always be someone else willing to do the work.


It's true to say capitalists don't need specific workers, but they still need labour.

Quote:
Maybe your family is different but There are lots of people who immigrated to the western world with next to nothing and worked hard and made the right choices and ended up having property that could support their family.


They couldn't do that if they were paid a subsistence wage, by definition.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10964310 -

Of course they need labour... but we are talking about who should have a -say-. say is all about control, about specific people with specific opinions.

You are right that working on subsistence wage, by definition, means that there is no money to save or invest and probably no time to spend finding physical or social wealth elsewhere.

I'm not sure what subsistence wage has to do with capitalism? I mean sure, it is something that capitalists have done to make more profit but that doesn't mean it is an essential quality of capitalism. As in... subsistence wage is not a negative quality of capitalism but of the specific capitalists who are being allowed to run their business in a certain way.

Think about it this way: people complain that wage is too low. So why not get another job? The answer is that there are no other jobs.

So hang on.

HANG ON.

People are complaining that no one is giving them something to do?

Whose responsibility is it to provide jobs?

Why does anyone have responsibility to pay someone more than subsistence wage if people are willing to work for subsistence wage?

I don't think people realise this: If you are expecting someone else to give you something to do, then you (you specifically) are relying on them (them specifically) and thus they can set the terms.

They, on the other hand, do not rely on you specifically. Or maybe they just don't realise it?

This is the whole point of unions, and why capitalists try to dissolve them - they bind workers together into a group. As a group, the workers are definately needed and thus the capitalists must listen to their demands.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10964386 -

Quote:
Why does anyone have responsibility to pay someone more than subsistence wage if people are willing to work for subsistence wage?


This was a long-standing problem for economists. The bourgeoisie thought that they should only pay their workers subsistence wages, but the fact is everyone is better off if the workers are paid a bit extra. One reason is that it ensures the populace will actually be able to afford the things they are producing!

Quote:
This is the whole point of unions, and why capitalists try to dissolve them - they bind workers together into a group. As a group, the workers are definately needed and thus the capitalists must listen to their demands.


Which is how it should be, IMHO. Unions are a critical part of the labour market.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10964474 -

No one is entitled to a subsistence wage in a free system.  Cut my lawn and Ill give you $50.00.  Say it takes the person a day to complete this job, but daily living expenses are $60.00.  That is not my problem.  The person has agreed to perform a task for a set wage.  The $10.00 difference will have to come out of the persons savings.  It is not my responsibility to make sure a person is paid a "subsistence wage".

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10964489 -

How many takers do you have for that offer? $50 for 8 hours work is pretty miserly. That's half the minimum wage here. You're correct, you have no responsibility to pay more, but that's why we have minimum wage laws.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10964514 -

A free market doesn't have "minimum wage" laws.  State sponsored price fixing (minimum wage) is not a free market.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10964542 -

I never said it was?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10964553 -

fivepointer said:
No one is entitled to a subsistence wage in a free system.  Cut my lawn and Ill give you $50.00.  Say it takes the person a day to complete this job, but daily living expenses are $60.00.  That is not my problem. 


It's obviously your problem if you intend on having your lawn cut every week. Only a fool will work a job that doesn't pay enough with which to subsist if they have other options, and, if they don't have other options, then we arise once again at the aforementioned presumed need that you will want your lawn cut every week.

You're correct, though. No one is entitled to have their lawn cut in a free system. :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10964562 -

zouden said:
Unions are a critical part of the labour market.


I resent being part of a mandatory union for my job.  I dont even have a choice to belong or not - that is ridiculous.   

Capitalism is great and works for the people as long as there is no monopolization.  When corporations monopolize beneficial competition goes away and people get taken advantage of.  This is why anti-trust laws are so important.  Unions are simply the monopolization of labor, when they exist beneficial competition goes away and people get taken advantage of.

I would have no problem with unions existing as long as they were subject to anti-trust legislation.  If one union is monopolizing a labor market then it needs to be broken up into a few competing unions so that capitalism can work for people instead of taking advantage of them.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: DieCommie]
    #10964566 -

:thumbup:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10964569 -

We have opposing interests in our society. You see it should be beneficial to try to educate and train your people so that they all serve specialised purposes and all work on different things so that everyone is valuable and the whole system is stronger.

But the backlash is that this gives power to the workers and makes it harder to keep things running smoothly if the workers are for whatever reason unavailable for labor. Thus the capitalists are trying to make everything easier and dumbed down so that everyone with half a brain can perform tasks in many areas of industry. Factory work was the epitomy of this - people just have to pay attention to something simple and thus lots of people can get work doing this simple shit.
But at the same time, these people can be replaced by someone else at any time.

If a country wanted to do the right thing, it would try to find jobs for everyone. But doing so would mean that it falls behind the rest of the capitalist world and ends up struggling.

This is why the 'right' solution (the solution that helps the common denominator rather than the big wigs who provide numbers) will inherently involve a lot of hardship for whoever is willing to take the risk.

A lot of work and risk and this requires faith by people so that they dont just take all their investment out and put it elsewhere. I'm not sure if any country at the moment is willing to risk its global standing for the sake of ideals.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10964573 -

fireworks_god said:
fivepointer said:
No one is entitled to a subsistence wage in a free system.  Cut my lawn and Ill give you $50.00.  Say it takes the person a day to complete this job, but daily living expenses are $60.00.  That is not my problem. 


It's obviously your problem if you intend on having your lawn cut every week. Only a fool will work a job that doesn't pay enough with which to subsist if they have other options, and, if they don't have other options, then we arise once again at the aforementioned presumed need that you will want your lawn cut every week.

You're correct, though. No one is entitled to have their lawn cut in a free system. :smile:


All I need is one person to agree to the proposal.  The socialists should get on that person's back for breaking solidarity and not holding out for a higher wage. 

In a situation of high general unemployment people might be willing to work for less than subsistence wages.  They would survive by working, selling assets, and donations from others.  It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10964576 -

Some aspects of Socialism are positive. However, Socialism as a general economic system is not good - as it leads to the lack of individual responsibility. Socialism offsets (or outsources) one's own responsibility to that of another party (another group of people).

Many things about Socialism seem great in theory. But as an overall economic practice, it leads to a collective chaos that is detrimental to society as a whole. Society is much more healthy when individuals take care of themselves - and don't offset their own survival burdens to others.

- The Conservatarian

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10964603 -

Quote:
In a situation of high general unemployment people might be willing to work for less than subsistence wages.  They would survive by working, selling assets, and donations from others.  It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


That's not the only alternative. The other alternative is require employers to pay more than $50 for 8 hours work. If they can't afford it, tough. That's the cost of doing business in a society that looks after its people. It works fine for most of the developed world (you know, the countries that are no longer in recession).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10964633 -

zouden said:
Quote:
In a situation of high general unemployment people might be willing to work for less than subsistence wages.  They would survive by working, selling assets, and donations from others.  It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


That's not the only alternative. The other alternative is require employers to pay more than $50 for 8 hours work. If they can't afford it, tough. That's the cost of doing business in a society that looks after its people. It works fine for most of the developed world (you know, the countries that are no longer in recession).


And who sets this "requirement"? So now the government should decide how much it should cost to cut a lawn?

Another terrible point: "If they can't afford it, tough." Brilliant! Do you realize that under this plan the person who was willing to cut the lawn for $49 will then lose their job - and no longer earn a paycheck? Their children will now go hungry and go into poverty. Congratulations on your government mandated cradle of security!

Supply/Demand is a science. Please do the math!

- The Conservatarian

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10964638 -

zouden said:
Quote:
In a situation of high general unemployment people might be willing to work for less than subsistence wages.  They would survive by working, selling assets, and donations from others.  It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


That's not the only alternative. The other alternative is require employers to pay more than $50 for 8 hours work. If they can't afford it, tough. That's the cost of doing business in a society that looks after its people. It works fine for most of the developed world (you know, the countries that are no longer in recession).


So your mandated wage is too high relative to the market, what happens? no job is created at all.  So instead of having a job the person has been prevented from selling his labor at a market wage, thereby making the person homeless and starving.
Now the socialist will demand further State programs to deal with the problems created by the first interference with the market (setting wages above the market).

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: the_conservatarian]
    #10964648 -

the_conservatarian said:
Another terrible point: "If they can't afford it, tough." Brilliant! Do you realize that under this plan the person who was willing to cut the lawn for $49 will then lose their job - and no longer earn a paycheck? Their children will now go hungry and go into poverty. Congratulations on your government mandated cradle of security!


Guess what: the US has more people living below the poverty line than other western countries. How does that fit with your theory? Australia's minimum wage is double that of America's, but our economy is far healthier. In spite of, or because of?

Quote:
Supply/Demand is a science. Please do the math!


Economics is more than just supply and demand, dude.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Edited by zouden (08/30/09 03:48 AM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10964702 -

Well, most people considered living in poverty in the U.S. own a television, enjoy central air conditioning, and drive their own automobile. Not so bad for poverty, wouldn't you agree? Compare that to other countries suffering from deliberate economic poverty.

I'm sure Australia is a great place. It's also a very capitalist country, from what I understand.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: the_conservatarian]
    #10964714 -

Depends who you ask. The Heritage Foundation rates Australia 9th in the world, tied with the US, in terms of "economic freedom" (Hong Kong is #1). But many in the US would consider Australia to be socialist, what with our minimum wage laws, universal healthcare, subsidised tertiary education, etc.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10964816 -

So why not raise minimum wages to $100 per hour? We would have nirvana then.  The socialist doesn't recognize the legitimacy of individual rights, since all rights are collectivist.  Rights are something that the individual really doesn't possess at all.  To them the collective, (the State), is the sole unit that decides what a right is.  All rights flow from the the State.  Collectivist thinking can permit any action by the State, since it can always be justified for the "greater good".  The perfect recipe for tyranny.

Socialists don't see interference in private contracts as abhorrent at all.  They don't see the big deal of  forceful interference when two parties come to an agreement.  Minimum wage laws directly abridge the individuals right to voluntary contract, which is the cornerstone of life and liberty

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10964836 -

Quote:
So why not raise minimum wages to $100 per hour? We would have nirvana then.


No we wouldn't, because it doesn't work like that. Do you hear anyone advocating a minimum wage that high?

Quote:
The socialist doesn't recognize the legitimacy of individual rights, since all rights are collectivist.  Rights are something that the individual really doesn't possess at all.  To them the collective, (the State), is the sole unit that decides what a right is.  All rights flow from the the State.  Collectivist thinking can permit any action by the State, since it can always be justified for the "greater good".  The perfect recipe for tyranny.



You've just described the USSR, not Australia, or any other western nation. Are you getting itchy from putting up all those straw men?

Quote:
Minimum wage laws directly abridge the individuals right to voluntary contract, which is the cornerstone of life and liberty


So do occupational health and safety laws. Are you against hard-hats too?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10965393 -

fivepointer said:
It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


If you're working for less than subsistence it is automatically implied that one is going to be homeless and starving.
That is what subsistence is, the source from which the means of food and other items necessary to exist is obtained.

Once again, if you want your lawn cut every week, you actually have to compensate the worker enough for them to continue to exist.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10965633 -

zouden said:
Guess what: the US has more people living below the poverty line than other western countries.


Poverty lines in western nations are a crock of shit.  I have been below the 'poverty' line for my entire adult life (and half my childhood) and have never known true want.  People in 'poverty' around here have all their basic needs meet, and quite a few luxuries as well.

(Also, we do have subsidized tertiary eduction - its highly subsidized where the student generally pays between 0 and 33 percent of the real cost.)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10965734 -

fireworks_god said:
fivepointer said:
It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


If you're working for less than subsistence it is automatically implied that one is going to be homeless and starving.
That is what subsistence is, the source from which the means of food and other items necessary to exist is obtained.

Once again, if you want your lawn cut every week, you actually have to compensate the worker enough for them to continue to exist.


As I have already explained the person working would have other sources of income, say a small pension, or interest on savings.  They could continue to work indefinitely at a below subsistence wage and survive.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10966070 -

DieCommie said:
(Also, we do have subsidized tertiary eduction - its highly subsidized where the student generally pays between 0 and 33 percent of the real cost.)


what? where? (I'm not contradicting you I seriously want to know)

fivepointer said:
As I have already explained the person working would have other sources of income, say a small pension, or interest on savings.  They could continue to work indefinitely at a below subsistence wage and survive.


How are you supposed to generate those without living above subsistence? Don't make much sense to me, further you call minimum wage undue interference in the market, but not pension? WTF? that's not even consistent.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good *DELETED* [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10966165 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #10966669 -

I should add also that minimum wage laws work. That bloke with the lawn, buggar him. The society he lives in obviously has more productive capacity to use him on if it has minimum wage laws than one that would let him work for 6.25 an hour or less. If he will mow his own lawn for less he can do that, if he can find an alternative to mowing his lawn, he can do that, if he has to pay extra to keep his lawn in tact I'm sure I'll have to shed a single tear for his misfortune. If he finds this slight inconvenience to be too much to bother with perhaps he would trade places with the ex-lawnmower who now has a job manufacturing lawn mowers for $12 an hour.

Sound like a socialist fairy tale? Nope, reality. Just like zounden said reality in every other developed country that has come out of recession already.

Though that said trying intentionally to keep a large unskilled workforce will backfire, unskilled labor is the cheapest in the world and having it is not beneficial to an economy. Otherwise developing nations would never bother training their workforce. Furthermore for reasons already outlined, low value for unskilled labor will lead to lowering demand or rather ability to pay for demand (cause there is a difference) of skilled labor. Thus decreasing the benefits for skilled people and causing skilled labor flight.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (08/30/09 02:44 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967063 -

fivepointer said:
fireworks_god said:
fivepointer said:
It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


If you're working for less than subsistence it is automatically implied that one is going to be homeless and starving.
That is what subsistence is, the source from which the means of food and other items necessary to exist is obtained.

Once again, if you want your lawn cut every week, you actually have to compensate the worker enough for them to continue to exist.


As I have already explained the person working would have other sources of income, say a small pension, or interest on savings.  They could continue to work indefinitely at a below subsistence wage and survive.


Where are those savings coming from, if he's getting paid below subsistence wage?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10967127 -

zouden said:
fivepointer said:
fireworks_god said:
fivepointer said:
It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


If you're working for less than subsistence it is automatically implied that one is going to be homeless and starving.
That is what subsistence is, the source from which the means of food and other items necessary to exist is obtained.

Once again, if you want your lawn cut every week, you actually have to compensate the worker enough for them to continue to exist.


As I have already explained the person working would have other sources of income, say a small pension, or interest on savings.  They could continue to work indefinitely at a below subsistence wage and survive.


Where are those savings coming from, if he's getting paid below subsistence wage?


Perhaps he had a job and retired, or was let go. 

How would you even define what subsistence is?  If a person lives in a tent city or in a van down by the river, their living expenses would be very low.  Subsistence to one man is intolerable living to another.

Also ScavengerType mentioned about pensions.  Perhaps from the country he is from it has a different meaning, but where I am private companies may provide pensions and this is not inconsistent with a free market.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10967139 -

ScavengerType said:
I should add also that minimum wage laws work. That bloke with the lawn, buggar him. The society he lives in obviously has more productive capacity to use him on if it has minimum wage laws than one that would let him work for 6.25 an hour or less. If he will mow his own lawn for less he can do that, if he can find an alternative to mowing his lawn, he can do that, if he has to pay extra to keep his lawn in tact I'm sure I'll have to shed a single tear for his misfortune. If he finds this slight inconvenience to be too much to bother with perhaps he would trade places with the ex-lawnmower who now has a job manufacturing lawn mowers for $12 an hour.

Sound like a socialist fairy tale? Nope, reality. Just like zounden said reality in every other developed country that has come out of recession already.

Though that said trying intentionally to keep a large unskilled workforce will backfire, unskilled labor is the cheapest in the world and having it is not beneficial to an economy. Otherwise developing nations would never bother training their workforce. Furthermore for reasons already outlined, low value for unskilled labor will lead to lowering demand or rather ability to pay for demand (cause there is a difference) of skilled labor. Thus decreasing the benefits for skilled people and causing skilled labor flight.


Setting wages arbitrarily by force only "works" to make those whose marginal value is below the fixed wage rate unemployed.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967146 -

either way your example is not a likely example of what such a policy would lead to and in fact I would feel bad for anyone forced to work for lower than subsistence wage that would then be forced into it after retirement. This is probibly one of the greatest indignities that a country could force onto it's elderly and I can't believe you are even suggesting it.

edit:
Quote:
Setting wages arbitrarily by force only "works" to make those whose marginal value is below the fixed wage rate unemployed.


Not in practice. Only fixing the min wage at too high an amount would do this.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (08/30/09 04:02 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10967179 -

ScavengerType said:
either way your example is not a likely example of what such a policy would lead to and in fact I would feel bad for anyone forced to work for lower than subsistence wage that would then be forced into it after retirement. This is probibly one of the greatest indignities that a country could force onto it's elderly and I can't believe you are even suggesting it.


The problem is your living in a fairy tale.  If a person doesn't produce X amount of value how can you expect someone to pay them for over what they are producing.  Socialist schemes are always based on the use of force to rob person A and give to person B.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967215 -

And yet the US is still mired in recession while the rest of the world is recovering. If we're living in a fairy tale at least it's got a happy ending.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967216 -

That's what minimum wage is for so that the minimum value of labor in an economy can be forced upward. If a job is only worth doing unless one person does it for too low of wages, there is a problem in the marketplace and it will need to be rectified by whomever it is who is responsible for that sector. Eliminating min wage regulations will allow more inefficient operational methods to remain and stagnate measures towards efficiency in the economy.

You sure post a lot about economics, for someone who doesn't know shit about it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (08/30/09 04:15 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10967313 -

ScavengerType said:
That's what minimum wage is for so that the minimum value of labor in an economy can be forced upward. If a job is only worth doing unless one person does it for too low of wages, there is a problem in the marketplace and it will need to be rectified by whomever it is who is responsible for that sector. Eliminating min wage regulations will allow more inefficient operational methods to remain and stagnate measures towards efficiency in the economy.

You sure post a lot about economics, for someone who doesn't know shit about it.


Spoken like a true central planner.  Who are you to say what level of efficiency is acceptable?  Perhaps I will invest in an automated lawn cutting system because you have made labor so expensive.  Perhaps I will create a rock garden instead of grass.  Either way the lawn cutter no longer has a job thanks to the interference.  Now that unemployed low skilled labor can live off of the dole, another socialist solution - create more socialism to fix the effects of socialism.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967352 -

If you invest in an automated lawn cutting system then that guy can get a job building lawn cutting systems - which is a far better job than mowing lawns. Everyone wins.

If everyone had your attitude, farms would still have thousands of unskilled labourers instead of a few combine harvesters. Do you really think that's a better solution? Do you think that people should accept a less-than-subsistence wage because you keep threatening them with technology taking their jobs?

You sound like the villain in a Dickens novel.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10967372 -

true socialism is a good form of govt and way of life but when the human factor is introduced it would never work
it has good points and aspects but so do all forms of govt the best thing to do would be take all positives and strong points from all known forms of society and fix or counter the negatives
today is the 21st century. its a lot different than when most countries started out
(thats why the constitution was spose to be a living document)
we need a completely different form of govt in order for earth to function in a way that we dont just burn out by 2070 and go extrinct. we need to adapt and we need to progress because if we dont well just fall behind and become history like the dinosaurs


--------------------
Do mushrooms grow in your head?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10967383 -

zouden said:
If you invest in an automated lawn cutting system then that guy can get a job building lawn cutting systems - which is a far better job than mowing lawns. Everyone wins.

If everyone had your attitude, farms would still have thousands of unskilled labourers instead of a few combine harvesters. Do you really think that's a better solution? Do you think that people should accept a less-than-subsistence wage because you keep threatening them with technology taking their jobs?

You sound like the villain in a Dickens novel.


Processes get automated because it is profitable to do so.  Profit drives the increased efficiency, no one needs to dictate that this happens, it happens naturally.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967413 -

And having a minimum wage makes it more profitable to invest in automation. There, that wasn't so bad now was it?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10967548 -

zouden said:
And having a minimum wage makes it more profitable to invest in automation. There, that wasn't so bad now was it?


No, I decided to create a rock garden, no one wins.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10967572 -

can you read fivepointer? Why does zounden have to repeat what I've already said?

edit: Good your flagellant water use was a burden to society.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (08/30/09 05:09 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10970792 -

fivepointer said:
zouden said:
And having a minimum wage makes it more profitable to invest in automation. There, that wasn't so bad now was it?


No, I decided to create a rock garden, no one wins.


How much did you pay for that rock garden? If you did it yourself, why didn't you just mow the lawn yourself? Perhaps you haven't thought this through.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10972128 -

zouden said:
Perhaps you haven't thought this through.


I'd bet a days wage on it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: youngsaint707]
    #10979086 -

youngsaint707 said:
true socialism is a good form of govt and way of life but when the human factor is introduced it would never work
it has good points and aspects but so do all forms of govt the best thing to do would be take all positives and strong points from all known forms of society and fix or counter the negatives
today is the 21st century. its a lot different than when most countries started out
(thats why the constitution was spose to be a living document)
we need a completely different form of govt in order for earth to function in a way that we dont just burn out by 2070 and go extrinct. we need to adapt and we need to progress because if we dont well just fall behind and become history like the dinosaurs



wow good point youngsaint707


--------------------
Do mushrooms grow in your head?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: youngsaint707]
    #10979088 -

thanks youngsaint707


--------------------
Do mushrooms grow in your head?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: youngsaint707]
    #10979095 -

When nobody else replies to you, all you can do is reply to yourself. :grin:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10979102 -

Exactly, MT. :smile:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10979161 -

lmao :laugh:


--------------------
Do mushrooms grow in your head?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: youngsaint707]
    #10982005 -

I think what you describe is easier said than done and you ought ta know it. Especially with nuts running around claiming an end to the minimum wage would help the economy. Frankly it's this exact disagreement on what those good aspects are and what the negative ones are that lead us to the shitty systems that we have around the world today.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11002159 -

Well, if everyone can relax...


No really, just relax for a minute.

No capitalist will convince a socialist that the free market is good.

Similarly, no socialist will convince a capitalist that government control is good.

But either can agree that both must be combined (to some degree) - so that prosperity can occur.

Now you can tell by my name that I lean towards the free-market system. But I do believe that a certain amount of government control is necessary, in order to protect individuals (consider the FDA, FTC, EPA, etc.).

It is clear that there are some good points from both capitalism and socialism alike. There can be problems too - a free market system with no government control can lead to products that are harmful to society.

Now consider a Socialist environment where you simply killing time. Does innovation occur?

The desire for freedom of opportunity is what drives capitalism.

The desire for guaranteed security is what drives socialism.

It is personal discretion as to what is more important.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: the_conservatarian]
    #11002288 -

I don't think anyone here is advocating socialism without any capitalism.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11002416 -

zouden said:
I don't think anyone here is advocating socialism without any capitalism.


a greed


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: the_conservatarian]
    #11002449 -

the_conservatarian said:
Well, if everyone can relax...


No really, just relax for a minute.

No capitalist will convince a socialist that the free market is good.

Similarly, no socialist will convince a capitalist that government control is good.

But either can agree that both must be combined (to some degree) - so that prosperity can occur.

Now you can tell by my name that I lean towards the free-market system. But I do believe that a certain amount of government control is necessary, in order to protect individuals (consider the FDA, FTC, EPA, etc.).

It is clear that there are some good points from both capitalism and socialism alike. There can be problems too - a free market system with no government control can lead to products that are harmful to society.

Now consider a Socialist environment where you simply killing time. Does innovation occur?

The desire for freedom of opportunity is what drives capitalism.

The desire for guaranteed security is what drives socialism.

It is personal discretion as to what is more important.


You have lost your argument entirely by taking this position.  You are merely a socialist to a lesser degree than the other socialists here.  You have accepted the philosophical foundation of socialism, you have refuted the PRINCIPLE of capitalism.  (Capitalism being defined as total private ownership of all things, the principle of private property, right to contract, all stemming from the general right to liberty, which is inalienable in all men by birth.)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002488 -

And Catholics aren't Christian, right? You really are the embodiment of fundamentalism...


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11002523 -

zouden said:
And Catholics aren't Christian, right? You really are the embodiment of fundamentalism...


And in what manner does this comment relate to this thread?  Try to keep things on topic, like the philosophical foundations of socialism vs. capitalism.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11002529 -

zouden said:
And Catholics aren't Christian, right? You really are the embodiment of fundamentalism...


nobody is until they put this guy's swearing kid to death.


However I think the same of free market fundamentalists as I do christian fundamentalists. There's something fundamentally wrong with them.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002547 -

It is relevant when you're speaking like an authority on capitalism. You're saying that you can't be in favour of capitalism and socialism; you're either a capitalist or a socialist. I think that's just as incorrect as saying you can't be a catholic and a christian, an attitude that you've espoused many times before. That puts your comment into context.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11002583 -

Scavenger, already stooping to personal attack? I'll take that as your concession to loosing the argument.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11002605 -

zouden said:
It is relevant when you're speaking like an authority on capitalism. You're saying that you can't be in favour of capitalism and socialism; you're either a capitalist or a socialist. I think that's just as incorrect as saying you can't be a catholic and a christian, an attitude that you've espoused many times before. That puts your comment into context.


The principle of capitalism (individual rights) verse socialism (collective rights) can not be reconciled.  The two are at polar opposites on base foundations.

Christianity verses Catholicism are opposed as well.  Salvation by works (Catholicism) verses salvation by grace (Christianity) are opposed at a very basic level.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002616 -

you don't even know about the dynamics of the free market, but I suppose you don't have to in order to just believe.

I meant that in general btw not as a personal attack. I mean look at my avatar.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002638 -

Quote:
The principle of capitalism (individual rights) verse socialism (collective rights) can not be reconciled.  The two are at polar opposites on base foundations.


Sure, but why do you have to devote yourself to one or the other? It's far more reasonable to accept that there are strengths and weaknesses of each and to decide policy on a case-by-case basis rather than simply declaring that "we must be capitalist at all cost".

I prefer dogs as pets, but I think cats can be pretty adorable too. Does that make me a cat-lover in disguise? Have I betrayed dog-lovers by admitting that kittens are cute?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11002661 -

Principle does not decide itself on a case by case basis.  You can not be on the fence.  By not taking a side you are by default taking a side, whether you realize it or not.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002700 -

What's to be gained by sticking to a principle that might not be the best in all cases? Do you think there's some value in saying "I made the wrong choice, but at least I stuck to my principles"? No. In the real world, we should make the best possible choice at all times. Principles have no bearing on that.

Quote:
By not taking a side you are by default taking a side, whether you realize it or not.


Which side have I taken, cat or dog?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002992 -

fivepointer said:
zouden said:
It is relevant when you're speaking like an authority on capitalism. You're saying that you can't be in favour of capitalism and socialism; you're either a capitalist or a socialist. I think that's just as incorrect as saying you can't be a catholic and a christian, an attitude that you've espoused many times before. That puts your comment into context.


The principle of capitalism (individual rights) verse socialism (collective rights) can not be reconciled.  The two are at polar opposites on base foundations.

Christianity verses Catholicism are opposed as well.  Salvation by works (Catholicism) verses salvation by grace (Christianity) are opposed at a very basic level.


Do you believe Capitalism is based on human rights?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11003022 -

Anything forced isn't good. Any state telling the people how to live is not good, rule by the majority or rule by the few ; it's still tyranny.


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

Edited by explosiveoxygen (09/05/09 05:39 AM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11003045 -

So you think it's not good that you aren't allowed to rape people? I think some degree of "tyranny by the majority" is okay - I'm happy to live in a society with laws, because it's better than the alternative.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11003086 -

zouden said:
So you think it's not good that you aren't allowed to rape people? I think some degree of "tyranny by the majority" is okay - I'm happy to live in a society with laws, because it's better than the alternative.


Nobody is saying no laws.  The only laws would be to enforce equal negative liberty, meaning every person has a right to life and liberty.  Raping would be a violation this principle.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11003097 -

Kukaracha said:
fivepointer said:
zouden said:
It is relevant when you're speaking like an authority on capitalism. You're saying that you can't be in favour of capitalism and socialism; you're either a capitalist or a socialist. I think that's just as incorrect as saying you can't be a catholic and a christian, an attitude that you've espoused many times before. That puts your comment into context.


The principle of capitalism (individual rights) verse socialism (collective rights) can not be reconciled.  The two are at polar opposites on base foundations.

Christianity verses Catholicism are opposed as well.  Salvation by works (Catholicism) verses salvation by grace (Christianity) are opposed at a very basic level.


Do you believe Capitalism is based on human rights?


Individual rights are human rights, collective rights is tyranny.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11003101 -

How do you define liberty? Do we have the liberty to travel safely on our roads? If so, does that override the liberty of people to drive as fast as they want? Without a clear answer, the obvious solution is to ask the people what they want. Then we're back to the tyranny of the majority. It's still better than the alternative though.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11003188 -

Liberty is the right to do what you want with your person and property up to effecting the equal right of others to do what they want with their person and property.

As for roads, which are property, the owner of the property sets conditions for who can stay on the property.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11003720 -

This might be a good opening for me to talk about Georgism, which in my opinion preserves the best aspects of both capitalism and socialism.  The basic philosophy behind it is that one should have private ownership over the product of one's labor, but since no person created the earth, the gifts of nature belong to all mankind in common(or, if you want to get theological, the Earth belongs to God, and we are but stewards of this planet).  It particularly applies this insight to land.  This doesn't mean that your neighbor gets to roam around in your backyard, but it does mean that you should pay for the privilege of taking land or natural resources out of the commons.  This is done through a high land value tax(LVT).  Since land is fixed in supply, a land value tax would not raise the cost of land, but would merely shift the cost from selling price to taxes(in other words, you would only be paying to the government what you would otherwise be paying to the bank).

In his 1879 bestseller Progress and Poverty, Henry George explained how private collection of land rent robs society of wealth by individually appropriating wealth that is not created by any individual, but rather by society as a whole.  This, he found, is the reason why poverty persists amidst great economic progress(hence the name of the book).  Land rents often get lumped in with capital returns as profit, so it is not apparent to people that the returns of capital and labor go down as rents increase.  This is further obscured as some of those rents end up in stock market prices, thus spreading around the profit to shareholders who don't directly own the land, but have a share in its profit.  There is nothing wrong with sharing the rent, but it should be shared by society at large, not by a select group of stockholders.

I could try to go into detail about how rents are created and how they affect the economy, but I'll save myself some time by providing links:

Capital, Interest, and Profits
The Law of Rent
The Dog in the Manger
The Boom-Bust Cycle

So basically, I have no problem with people working and producing and not being taxed one dime for their productivity.  However, activities which appropriate wealth from the commons should be taxed to the full extent of their impact, so that the commons can be reclaimed and poverty can be eliminated.


--------------------

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11003868 -

Well, do you consider what we call "the human rights" to be universal?

And also, how do you define someone's liberty?
With laws, therefore restraining people; laws are necessary, Explosiveoxygen.

With that being said... individual rights are better than collective rights? What are the differences? And why would there be individual rights when humans live in groups, families, cities...? Isn't there a contradiction there, maybe the roots of individualism?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11004113 -

Quote:
With that being said... individual rights are better than collective rights? What are the differences? And why would there be individual rights when humans live in groups, families, cities...? Isn't there a contradiction there, maybe the roots of individualism?


Individual rights exist exactly because people live in groups and still want to preserve as much as possible from their individual preferences. If each human would live isolated, there wouldn't even be a need for rights.
Asking why should individual rights exist in a scenario where most people live in groups seems like a question that you never gave any real thought, IMO. :shrug2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11005382 -

Fivepointer, what do you think about your collectivist fire department? Would you prefer a capitalist, for-profit fire service? Does the fact that you take advantage of your city's collective fire service mean that you are really a socialist?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11005466 -

TRAITOR! CAT LOVER! COMMIE!


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11006651 -

Wow don't you hate when you miss a page.

So while we are on the subject of how economic systems relate to socioty, I thought I may mention something.

Silversoul's post reminded me of an article I read in adbusters. This article described how the Guatemalan government had named the earth as a legal entity. I have not heard how it is going for them, but just think if the environment had to be reimbursed for every clear-cut, toxic mining experiment or waste management boondoggle. The natural environment, once a economic externality would finally be in the minds of capitalists (even the freemarketeers) as an investments or expenses. Imagine if the public good like schools, fire departments or hospitals were thought of in this way. One could collect from those who inherit the most from the public good and reimburse those funds to ensure it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11006674 -

Kukaracha said:
Well, do you consider what we call "the human rights" to be universal?

And also, how do you define someone's liberty?
With laws, therefore restraining people; laws are necessary, Explosiveoxygen.

What kind of laws are you suggesting? There are thousands of laws and only about a dozen protect freedom and liberty.


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11009858 -

MushroomTrip said:
Quote:
With that being said... individual rights are better than collective rights? What are the differences? And why would there be individual rights when humans live in groups, families, cities...? Isn't there a contradiction there, maybe the roots of individualism?


Individual rights exist exactly because people live in groups and still want to preserve as much as possible from their individual preferences. If each human would live isolated, there wouldn't even be a need for rights.
Asking why should individual rights exist in a scenario where most people live in groups seems like a question that you never gave any real thought, IMO. :shrug2:


Well, I am giving it a real thought right now, bu I haven't before, it's true. To my defense, I will say I am pretty young. Thanks for pointing this out anyway. :shrug2:
However, collective and individual rights don't necessarily interfere with each other, do they?

To Explosiveoxygen : imagne a lawless world. Are you freer? I personnally don't think so. Chaos doesn't allow civilization. The only thing you can do is run around, which you can do now too in many places. You cannot travel, since there are no means to do so, you cannot fly, since no one invented planes - why weren't they invented? Well, some guy had a good idea about it, but then he was killed by a man who disagreed with him. His freedom was limited by the strenght of others; meet someone stronger, your freedom is suddenly gone.
Laws actually make civilization possible, it creates many possibilities while guaranteing you a certain minimum and the possibility to live those possibilities.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11010072 -

Indeed. That's why I say that, despite their faults, we have laws and civilisation because it's better than the alternative.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11013336 -

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/americas/cuba/story/1203953.html

Cuba faces toilet paper shortage

Another example of the wonders of socialism.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11013359 -

That's like saying that surgery isn't good because there's examples of really stupid surgeons.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11013380 -

Socialism fails not because of poor administration, but because it has no rational way (due to lack of free trade) to calculate price in the structure of production.  See Ludwig von Mises's "Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth" for why socialism is broken as designed.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11013409 -

By your definition, all countries are socialist, because they have some socialist policies. Yet most countries have no problems calculating price in the structure of production. For that matter, most countries don't have a toilet paper shortage either. If socialism is such a disaster, how come 99% of all countries can have socialist policies and toilet paper at the same time? I think your logic is seriously flawed.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11014142 -

fivepointer said:
Socialism fails not because of poor administration, but because it has no rational way (due to lack of free trade) to calculate price in the structure of production.  See Ludwig von Mises's "Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth" for why socialism is broken as designed.


The kind of socialism he was talking about was a command economy.  Most countries today, even the most left-wing welfare states, maintain a market economy.


--------------------

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #11014669 -

realy? Why on earth would a small island nation with little or no forests and no domestic toilet paper production that, communism or capitalism exports a luxury good into an international market that is currently in recession, have a shortage of toilet paper? So what is it called in capitalist nations when toilet paper must be done without or stole? Do we have a shortage of food if some are starving in abundance? Look at Jamaica and Haiti, Cuba is lucky to have communism to protect it from predatory interests like the IMF, but not as lucky as they are to have those fucking cigars.

Anyone know what the deal is with Bacardi? It says it is from Cuba but they also have it in the US... so wtf?

edit: damn happened again


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (09/07/09 01:14 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #11014698 -

Silversoul said:
fivepointer said:
Socialism fails not because of poor administration, but because it has no rational way (due to lack of free trade) to calculate price in the structure of production.  See Ludwig von Mises's "Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth" for why socialism is broken as designed.


The kind of socialism he was talking about was a command economy.  Most countries today, even the most left-wing welfare states, maintain a market economy.


but that's the weird thing even though everyone in this thread has claimed the command or planned economy is not a good idea. He shows up and starts spouting his libertarian rhetoric and saying we are all Stalinist... WTF?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11015133 -

He seems unwilling to change his mind and leave his manichean vision of economy!
Georgism is pretty interesting, I kind of agree with Silversoul's point of view based on what I've read so far. I remeber reading about another thing that could maybe help, the Tobin tax, promoted by the group ATAC.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11086257 -

Well, according to Fivepointer, I'm a Socialist.

But I'm ideologically pissed off that the U.S. govt. is handing out massive tax dollars to the Union-owned American auto companies that manufacture shitty cars - and provide fake, socialist-controlled, blue-worker jobs.

The U.S. is supporting a complete industry - much like China does on a regular basis. We are not communists, nor socialists. The free-market should live and die as a free market does. But instead, we prop up the Unions so that a bunch of fucktards can keep their idiot-proof jobs. And the rest of the world pays...

-the conservatarian (a.k.a. an asshole)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: the_conservatarian]
    #11095994 -

Government is always less efficient than a free market.

Regulations always impede growth, prevent quick recovery.

Taxes hurt poor people much more than super rich even when scaled to income.


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11096136 -

explosiveoxygen said:
Government is always less efficient than a free market.

Regulations always impede growth, prevent quick recovery.

Taxes hurt poor people much more than super rich even when scaled to income.


Those are quite absolutist statements, spoken like a good dogmatist.  Enjoy the Kool-Aid.  I hear the private manufacturer of it added something "special" to it.


--------------------

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #11096378 -

Silversoul said:
explosiveoxygen said:
Government is always less efficient than a free market.

Regulations always impede growth, prevent quick recovery.

Taxes hurt poor people much more than super rich even when scaled to income.


Those are quite absolutist statements, spoken like a good dogmatist.  Enjoy the Kool-Aid.  I hear the private manufacturer of it added something "special" to it.


In a free market monopoly is impossible.


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good *DELETED* [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11098294 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11098468 -

Lakefingers said:
And unfortunately many good things as well.


Explain your ideas about some good things that are literally impossible in a Free Market.


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11122856 -

explosiveoxygen said:
Lakefingers said:
And unfortunately many good things as well.


Explain your ideas about some good things that are literally impossible in a Free Market.


Yes, I'd like to hear this also...

What is it that you are unable to find in a free market?

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Re: Is Socialism Good *DELETED* [Re: the_conservatarian]
    #11129856 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: No reason.

Edited by Lakefingers (09/26/09 04:48 AM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11130906 -

You may need to check this out before writing something like that again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market:slaves:


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11131205 -

explosiveoxygen said:
You may need to check this out before writing something like that again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market:slaves:


I'm pretty sure he knows what a free market is(the question is, do you?).  What specifically in that article should he "check out"?  Where is he mistaken in his logic?


--------------------

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #11131218 -

Silversoul said:
explosiveoxygen said:
You may need to check this out before writing something like that again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market:slaves:


I'm pretty sure he knows what a free market is(the question is, do you?).  What specifically in that article should he "check out"?  Where is he mistaken in his logic?


He talks about the free market as if it were a complete political ideology. Did you ever hear of the phrase "a fool is not known a fool until he speaks" ?


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

Edited by explosiveoxygen (09/26/09 12:46 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11131254 -

I should say at this juncture that the pro-slavery south from the civil war was free trade and free market while the abolitionist north favored protectionist policies to build wage labor based industries...

Frankly I think asking, "what doesn't the free market provide?" is a misleading question. As it is quite clearly some of the things that the free market does "provide" that are completely undesirable.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11131278 -

ScavengerType said:
I should say at this juncture that the pro-slavery south from the civil war was free trade and free market while the abolitionist north favored protectionist policies to build wage labor based industries...

Frankly I think asking, "what doesn't the free market provide?" is a misleading question. As it is quite clearly some of the things that the free market does "provide" that are completely undesirable.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery


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The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11131282 -

explosiveoxygen said:
He talks about the free market as if it were a complete political ideology. Did you ever hear of the phrase "a fool is not known a fool until he speaks" ?


I checked over his post again to make sure, and I don't see any of the shit you're talking about.  Maybe that's because you're the ideologue here.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11131309 -

explosiveoxygen said:
ScavengerType said:
I should say at this juncture that the pro-slavery south from the civil war was free trade and free market while the abolitionist north favored protectionist policies to build wage labor based industries...

Frankly I think asking, "what doesn't the free market provide?" is a misleading question. As it is quite clearly some of the things that the free market does "provide" that are completely undesirable.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery


are you suggesting actual slavery is better or the same?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #11131321 -

Silversoul said:
explosiveoxygen said:
He talks about the free market as if it were a complete political ideology. Did you ever hear of the phrase "a fool is not known a fool until he speaks" ?


I checked over his post again to make sure, and I don't see any of the shit you're talking about.  Maybe that's because you're the ideologue here.


But then, in a free market we wouldn't have needed gender equality, leveling of wage gaps, mass education, and RDA guidelines. Slavery would be OK, the right to vote would still be restricted for those of a certain class/income/race,

ScavengerType said:
explosiveoxygen said:
ScavengerType said:
I should say at this juncture that the pro-slavery south from the civil war was free trade and free market while the abolitionist north favored protectionist policies to build wage labor based industries...

Frankly I think asking, "what doesn't the free market provide?" is a misleading question. As it is quite clearly some of the things that the free market does "provide" that are completely undesirable.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery


are you suggesting actual slavery is better or the same?


Check the similarities, your question is akin to asking me if an apple and orange is the same.


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The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11131391 -

I dissagree, apples vs. oranges are much less different than the ability to own and whip an employee vs. the employee's rights being protected and their freedom to work wherever they both wish to and can receive employment.

Wage slavery may not be the fairest arrangement, but it is miles from slavery.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11132192 -

Well, Lakefingers did provide his opinion in a few paragraphs without using wikipedia (!) articles as argument, I guess it would be more convincing if you do the same!
Not talking about apples or oranges or URLs, but debating the issue.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11132649 -

Kukaracha said:
Well, Lakefingers did provide his opinion in a few paragraphs without using wikipedia (!) articles as argument, I guess it would be more convincing if you do the same!
Not talking about apples or oranges or URLs, but debating the issue.


I'm sorry would you also deny wikipedia's credibility in an article about gravity or h2o?


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11132781 -

explosiveoxygen said:
Kukaracha said:
Well, Lakefingers did provide his opinion in a few paragraphs without using wikipedia (!) articles as argument, I guess it would be more convincing if you do the same!
Not talking about apples or oranges or URLs, but debating the issue.


I'm sorry would you also deny wikipedia's credibility in an article about gravity or h2o?


Well I did have a friend who spent some time writing "cuncumber" all over it when she was bored (a very odd hobby, I agree).
Now my main point is not that wikipedia is not reliable, but that it would maybe be better if you defended your point of view with and explaination instead of throwing wikipedia links.
I'm not really disagreeing with you here, but observing the debate, and I can't really see your exact opinion and criticize it if you only answer that way.

Edited by Kukaracha (09/26/09 06:38 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11133054 -

Kukaracha said:
explosiveoxygen said:
Kukaracha said:
Well, Lakefingers did provide his opinion in a few paragraphs without using wikipedia (!) articles as argument, I guess it would be more convincing if you do the same!
Not talking about apples or oranges or URLs, but debating the issue.


I'm sorry would you also deny wikipedia's credibility in an article about gravity or h2o?


Well I did have a friend who spent some time writing "cuncumber" all over it when she was bored (a very odd hobby, I agree).
Now my main point is not that wikipedia is not reliable, but that it would maybe be better if you defended your point of view with and explaination instead of throuwing wikipedia links.
I'm not really disagreeing with you here, but observing the debate, and I can't really see your exact opinion and criticize it if you only answer that way.


Why say something that is already so well said in the link I find? If the person I quote has no response it means they are too lazy to read it or too crazy to see what it means instead of skimming it and jumping to incorrect conclusions.


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11133134 -

explosiveoxygen said:
Why say something that is already so well said in the link I find? If the person I quote has no response it means they are too lazy to read it or too crazy to see what it means instead of skimming it and jumping to incorrect conclusions.


No.  What you did what just intellectual laziness.  You have no argument to make, so you post a wikipedia article without even pointing out where the other person made a mistake.  Would you mind explaining how Lakefingers' post contradicts the wikipedia article?


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #11133295 -

or how wage slavery is equivalent to slave slavery.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11133363 -

ScavengerType said:
or how wage slavery is equivalent to slave slavery.


Interestingly enough, Thorstein Veblen once hypothesized that the ownership of people preceded ownership of things.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #11133515 -

In what context? A hunter "owned" it's kill when it caught it, as well male heads likely "owned" their families in a way. Animals have similar senses of ownership.

I can imagine one hunter saying to another after watching him make a kill. "Man you sure owned that gazelle."


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11134527 -

ScavengerType said:
In what context? A hunter "owned" it's kill when it caught it, as well male heads likely "owned" their families in a way. Animals have similar senses of ownership.

I can imagine one hunter saying to another after watching him make a kill. "Man you sure owned that gazelle."


Food was shared with the community.  Private property doesn't really make sense for hunter-gatherers who lived in such small communities.  They were nomadic, so land ownership was out of the cards.  They had tools, but they were readily shared with those who needed them.  And again, food was likewise shared with the community.  This is why Marx referred to such societies as "primitive communism."

Veblen's point was that ownership would have come about when raids were made on other tribes, in which they would subjugate members of the other tribe, using the women to breed and the men to work.  I'm personally skeptical that this would have happened very much prior to the onset of agriculture, though.  So I would actually say that property in people and in goods probably developed around the same time.


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Re: Is Socialism Good *DELETED* [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11135290 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11135321 -

Lakefingers said:
Quote:
"In a free market monopoly is impossible. "
"Explain your ideas about some good things that are literally impossible in a Free Market. "
"What is it that you are unable to find in a free market?"


Like, literally? OK.

To gain experience about free markets I suggest you put down a few hundred hours of study on Somalian, move to Somalia with your budding fluency in the local lingua franca and test your free market hypotheses in country with the world's freest market for more than a decade.



So let me get this straight... Somalia is the "free-est market" in the world?

And you think this should be our basis of judgements upon global free-markets?

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Re: Is Socialism Good *DELETED* [Re: the_conservatarian]
    #11135332 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11135420 -

Lakefingers said:
Go back and read the other parts about logically possible worlds, etc.


Maybe I'm fucked up, but I have no idea what anyone on this thread is talking about...

Is Lakefingers suggesting that anarchy = free market? What am I missing?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11135442 -

ScavengerType said:
In what context? A hunter "owned" it's kill when it caught it, as well male heads likely "owned" their families in a way. Animals have similar senses of ownership.

I can imagine one hunter saying to another after watching him make a kill. "Man you sure owned that gazelle."


I wonder if Che said anything similar to Castro after murdering his brothers in arms...

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11137200 -

Lakefingers said:
explosiveoxygen said:
You may need to check this out before writing something like that again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market:slaves:


Fortunately I don't. Rereading the thread I've notice the people, including you, that argue for free markets are generally not very well informed about politics, which you often hide with dismissive one-liners. I'm also assuming that's why you've responded several times in the past day with links to Wikipedia articles instead of providing an informed reply.

Or perhaps you're so well-educated that we are not worth a response, but rather the rotten fish of a link to a shoddy article. Like not.


Ad hominem you say? This is a great response. Why do you let your ego blind you? :thirdeyeani:


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good *DELETED* [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11137447 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11137503 -

EO: just state your fuckin point clearly or stop dragging this about like a douche.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11137586 -

EO sounds like a troll.
:mad:

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