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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11131309 -

explosiveoxygen said:
ScavengerType said:
I should say at this juncture that the pro-slavery south from the civil war was free trade and free market while the abolitionist north favored protectionist policies to build wage labor based industries...

Frankly I think asking, "what doesn't the free market provide?" is a misleading question. As it is quite clearly some of the things that the free market does "provide" that are completely undesirable.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery


are you suggesting actual slavery is better or the same?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #11131321 -

Silversoul said:
explosiveoxygen said:
He talks about the free market as if it were a complete political ideology. Did you ever hear of the phrase "a fool is not known a fool until he speaks" ?


I checked over his post again to make sure, and I don't see any of the shit you're talking about.  Maybe that's because you're the ideologue here.


But then, in a free market we wouldn't have needed gender equality, leveling of wage gaps, mass education, and RDA guidelines. Slavery would be OK, the right to vote would still be restricted for those of a certain class/income/race,

ScavengerType said:
explosiveoxygen said:
ScavengerType said:
I should say at this juncture that the pro-slavery south from the civil war was free trade and free market while the abolitionist north favored protectionist policies to build wage labor based industries...

Frankly I think asking, "what doesn't the free market provide?" is a misleading question. As it is quite clearly some of the things that the free market does "provide" that are completely undesirable.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery


are you suggesting actual slavery is better or the same?


Check the similarities, your question is akin to asking me if an apple and orange is the same.


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The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11131391 -

I dissagree, apples vs. oranges are much less different than the ability to own and whip an employee vs. the employee's rights being protected and their freedom to work wherever they both wish to and can receive employment.

Wage slavery may not be the fairest arrangement, but it is miles from slavery.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11132192 -

Well, Lakefingers did provide his opinion in a few paragraphs without using wikipedia (!) articles as argument, I guess it would be more convincing if you do the same!
Not talking about apples or oranges or URLs, but debating the issue.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11132649 -

Kukaracha said:
Well, Lakefingers did provide his opinion in a few paragraphs without using wikipedia (!) articles as argument, I guess it would be more convincing if you do the same!
Not talking about apples or oranges or URLs, but debating the issue.


I'm sorry would you also deny wikipedia's credibility in an article about gravity or h2o?


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11132781 -

explosiveoxygen said:
Kukaracha said:
Well, Lakefingers did provide his opinion in a few paragraphs without using wikipedia (!) articles as argument, I guess it would be more convincing if you do the same!
Not talking about apples or oranges or URLs, but debating the issue.


I'm sorry would you also deny wikipedia's credibility in an article about gravity or h2o?


Well I did have a friend who spent some time writing "cuncumber" all over it when she was bored (a very odd hobby, I agree).
Now my main point is not that wikipedia is not reliable, but that it would maybe be better if you defended your point of view with and explaination instead of throwing wikipedia links.
I'm not really disagreeing with you here, but observing the debate, and I can't really see your exact opinion and criticize it if you only answer that way.

Edited by Kukaracha (09/26/09 06:38 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Kukaracha]
    #11133054 -

Kukaracha said:
explosiveoxygen said:
Kukaracha said:
Well, Lakefingers did provide his opinion in a few paragraphs without using wikipedia (!) articles as argument, I guess it would be more convincing if you do the same!
Not talking about apples or oranges or URLs, but debating the issue.


I'm sorry would you also deny wikipedia's credibility in an article about gravity or h2o?


Well I did have a friend who spent some time writing "cuncumber" all over it when she was bored (a very odd hobby, I agree).
Now my main point is not that wikipedia is not reliable, but that it would maybe be better if you defended your point of view with and explaination instead of throuwing wikipedia links.
I'm not really disagreeing with you here, but observing the debate, and I can't really see your exact opinion and criticize it if you only answer that way.


Why say something that is already so well said in the link I find? If the person I quote has no response it means they are too lazy to read it or too crazy to see what it means instead of skimming it and jumping to incorrect conclusions.


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11133134 -

explosiveoxygen said:
Why say something that is already so well said in the link I find? If the person I quote has no response it means they are too lazy to read it or too crazy to see what it means instead of skimming it and jumping to incorrect conclusions.


No.  What you did what just intellectual laziness.  You have no argument to make, so you post a wikipedia article without even pointing out where the other person made a mistake.  Would you mind explaining how Lakefingers' post contradicts the wikipedia article?


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #11133295 -

or how wage slavery is equivalent to slave slavery.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11133363 -

ScavengerType said:
or how wage slavery is equivalent to slave slavery.


Interestingly enough, Thorstein Veblen once hypothesized that the ownership of people preceded ownership of things.


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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Silversoul]
    #11133515 -

In what context? A hunter "owned" it's kill when it caught it, as well male heads likely "owned" their families in a way. Animals have similar senses of ownership.

I can imagine one hunter saying to another after watching him make a kill. "Man you sure owned that gazelle."


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11134527 -

ScavengerType said:
In what context? A hunter "owned" it's kill when it caught it, as well male heads likely "owned" their families in a way. Animals have similar senses of ownership.

I can imagine one hunter saying to another after watching him make a kill. "Man you sure owned that gazelle."


Food was shared with the community.  Private property doesn't really make sense for hunter-gatherers who lived in such small communities.  They were nomadic, so land ownership was out of the cards.  They had tools, but they were readily shared with those who needed them.  And again, food was likewise shared with the community.  This is why Marx referred to such societies as "primitive communism."

Veblen's point was that ownership would have come about when raids were made on other tribes, in which they would subjugate members of the other tribe, using the women to breed and the men to work.  I'm personally skeptical that this would have happened very much prior to the onset of agriculture, though.  So I would actually say that property in people and in goods probably developed around the same time.


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Re: Is Socialism Good *DELETED* [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11135290 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: "

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11135321 -

Lakefingers said:
Quote:
"In a free market monopoly is impossible. "
"Explain your ideas about some good things that are literally impossible in a Free Market. "
"What is it that you are unable to find in a free market?"


Like, literally? OK.

To gain experience about free markets I suggest you put down a few hundred hours of study on Somalian, move to Somalia with your budding fluency in the local lingua franca and test your free market hypotheses in country with the world's freest market for more than a decade.



So let me get this straight... Somalia is the "free-est market" in the world?

And you think this should be our basis of judgements upon global free-markets?

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Re: Is Socialism Good *DELETED* [Re: the_conservatarian]
    #11135332 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11135420 -

Lakefingers said:
Go back and read the other parts about logically possible worlds, etc.


Maybe I'm fucked up, but I have no idea what anyone on this thread is talking about...

Is Lakefingers suggesting that anarchy = free market? What am I missing?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11135442 -

ScavengerType said:
In what context? A hunter "owned" it's kill when it caught it, as well male heads likely "owned" their families in a way. Animals have similar senses of ownership.

I can imagine one hunter saying to another after watching him make a kill. "Man you sure owned that gazelle."


I wonder if Che said anything similar to Castro after murdering his brothers in arms...

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11137200 -

Lakefingers said:
explosiveoxygen said:
You may need to check this out before writing something like that again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market:slaves:


Fortunately I don't. Rereading the thread I've notice the people, including you, that argue for free markets are generally not very well informed about politics, which you often hide with dismissive one-liners. I'm also assuming that's why you've responded several times in the past day with links to Wikipedia articles instead of providing an informed reply.

Or perhaps you're so well-educated that we are not worth a response, but rather the rotten fish of a link to a shoddy article. Like not.


Ad hominem you say? This is a great response. Why do you let your ego blind you? :thirdeyeani:


--------------------
The Great Mycelium (TGMM) is more than you and me, we are all part of One.

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Re: Is Socialism Good *DELETED* [Re: explosiveoxygen]
    #11137447 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #11137503 -

EO: just state your fuckin point clearly or stop dragging this about like a douche.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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