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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10970792 -

fivepointer said:
zouden said:
And having a minimum wage makes it more profitable to invest in automation. There, that wasn't so bad now was it?


No, I decided to create a rock garden, no one wins.


How much did you pay for that rock garden? If you did it yourself, why didn't you just mow the lawn yourself? Perhaps you haven't thought this through.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10972128 -

zouden said:
Perhaps you haven't thought this through.


I'd bet a days wage on it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: youngsaint707]
    #10979086 -

youngsaint707 said:
true socialism is a good form of govt and way of life but when the human factor is introduced it would never work
it has good points and aspects but so do all forms of govt the best thing to do would be take all positives and strong points from all known forms of society and fix or counter the negatives
today is the 21st century. its a lot different than when most countries started out
(thats why the constitution was spose to be a living document)
we need a completely different form of govt in order for earth to function in a way that we dont just burn out by 2070 and go extrinct. we need to adapt and we need to progress because if we dont well just fall behind and become history like the dinosaurs



wow good point youngsaint707


--------------------
Do mushrooms grow in your head?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: youngsaint707]
    #10979088 -

thanks youngsaint707


--------------------
Do mushrooms grow in your head?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: youngsaint707]
    #10979095 -

When nobody else replies to you, all you can do is reply to yourself. :grin:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10979102 -

Exactly, MT. :smile:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10979161 -

lmao :laugh:


--------------------
Do mushrooms grow in your head?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: youngsaint707]
    #10982005 -

I think what you describe is easier said than done and you ought ta know it. Especially with nuts running around claiming an end to the minimum wage would help the economy. Frankly it's this exact disagreement on what those good aspects are and what the negative ones are that lead us to the shitty systems that we have around the world today.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11002159 -

Well, if everyone can relax...


No really, just relax for a minute.

No capitalist will convince a socialist that the free market is good.

Similarly, no socialist will convince a capitalist that government control is good.

But either can agree that both must be combined (to some degree) - so that prosperity can occur.

Now you can tell by my name that I lean towards the free-market system. But I do believe that a certain amount of government control is necessary, in order to protect individuals (consider the FDA, FTC, EPA, etc.).

It is clear that there are some good points from both capitalism and socialism alike. There can be problems too - a free market system with no government control can lead to products that are harmful to society.

Now consider a Socialist environment where you simply killing time. Does innovation occur?

The desire for freedom of opportunity is what drives capitalism.

The desire for guaranteed security is what drives socialism.

It is personal discretion as to what is more important.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: the_conservatarian]
    #11002288 -

I don't think anyone here is advocating socialism without any capitalism.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11002416 -

zouden said:
I don't think anyone here is advocating socialism without any capitalism.


a greed


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: the_conservatarian]
    #11002449 -

the_conservatarian said:
Well, if everyone can relax...


No really, just relax for a minute.

No capitalist will convince a socialist that the free market is good.

Similarly, no socialist will convince a capitalist that government control is good.

But either can agree that both must be combined (to some degree) - so that prosperity can occur.

Now you can tell by my name that I lean towards the free-market system. But I do believe that a certain amount of government control is necessary, in order to protect individuals (consider the FDA, FTC, EPA, etc.).

It is clear that there are some good points from both capitalism and socialism alike. There can be problems too - a free market system with no government control can lead to products that are harmful to society.

Now consider a Socialist environment where you simply killing time. Does innovation occur?

The desire for freedom of opportunity is what drives capitalism.

The desire for guaranteed security is what drives socialism.

It is personal discretion as to what is more important.


You have lost your argument entirely by taking this position.  You are merely a socialist to a lesser degree than the other socialists here.  You have accepted the philosophical foundation of socialism, you have refuted the PRINCIPLE of capitalism.  (Capitalism being defined as total private ownership of all things, the principle of private property, right to contract, all stemming from the general right to liberty, which is inalienable in all men by birth.)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002488 -

And Catholics aren't Christian, right? You really are the embodiment of fundamentalism...


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11002523 -

zouden said:
And Catholics aren't Christian, right? You really are the embodiment of fundamentalism...


And in what manner does this comment relate to this thread?  Try to keep things on topic, like the philosophical foundations of socialism vs. capitalism.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11002529 -

zouden said:
And Catholics aren't Christian, right? You really are the embodiment of fundamentalism...


nobody is until they put this guy's swearing kid to death.


However I think the same of free market fundamentalists as I do christian fundamentalists. There's something fundamentally wrong with them.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002547 -

It is relevant when you're speaking like an authority on capitalism. You're saying that you can't be in favour of capitalism and socialism; you're either a capitalist or a socialist. I think that's just as incorrect as saying you can't be a catholic and a christian, an attitude that you've espoused many times before. That puts your comment into context.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #11002583 -

Scavenger, already stooping to personal attack? I'll take that as your concession to loosing the argument.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #11002605 -

zouden said:
It is relevant when you're speaking like an authority on capitalism. You're saying that you can't be in favour of capitalism and socialism; you're either a capitalist or a socialist. I think that's just as incorrect as saying you can't be a catholic and a christian, an attitude that you've espoused many times before. That puts your comment into context.


The principle of capitalism (individual rights) verse socialism (collective rights) can not be reconciled.  The two are at polar opposites on base foundations.

Christianity verses Catholicism are opposed as well.  Salvation by works (Catholicism) verses salvation by grace (Christianity) are opposed at a very basic level.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002616 -

you don't even know about the dynamics of the free market, but I suppose you don't have to in order to just believe.

I meant that in general btw not as a personal attack. I mean look at my avatar.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #11002638 -

Quote:
The principle of capitalism (individual rights) verse socialism (collective rights) can not be reconciled.  The two are at polar opposites on base foundations.


Sure, but why do you have to devote yourself to one or the other? It's far more reasonable to accept that there are strengths and weaknesses of each and to decide policy on a case-by-case basis rather than simply declaring that "we must be capitalist at all cost".

I prefer dogs as pets, but I think cats can be pretty adorable too. Does that make me a cat-lover in disguise? Have I betrayed dog-lovers by admitting that kittens are cute?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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