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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10965393 -

fivepointer said:
It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


If you're working for less than subsistence it is automatically implied that one is going to be homeless and starving.
That is what subsistence is, the source from which the means of food and other items necessary to exist is obtained.

Once again, if you want your lawn cut every week, you actually have to compensate the worker enough for them to continue to exist.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10965633 -

zouden said:
Guess what: the US has more people living below the poverty line than other western countries.


Poverty lines in western nations are a crock of shit.  I have been below the 'poverty' line for my entire adult life (and half my childhood) and have never known true want.  People in 'poverty' around here have all their basic needs meet, and quite a few luxuries as well.

(Also, we do have subsidized tertiary eduction - its highly subsidized where the student generally pays between 0 and 33 percent of the real cost.)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fireworks_god]
    #10965734 -

fireworks_god said:
fivepointer said:
It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


If you're working for less than subsistence it is automatically implied that one is going to be homeless and starving.
That is what subsistence is, the source from which the means of food and other items necessary to exist is obtained.

Once again, if you want your lawn cut every week, you actually have to compensate the worker enough for them to continue to exist.


As I have already explained the person working would have other sources of income, say a small pension, or interest on savings.  They could continue to work indefinitely at a below subsistence wage and survive.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10966070 -

DieCommie said:
(Also, we do have subsidized tertiary eduction - its highly subsidized where the student generally pays between 0 and 33 percent of the real cost.)


what? where? (I'm not contradicting you I seriously want to know)

fivepointer said:
As I have already explained the person working would have other sources of income, say a small pension, or interest on savings.  They could continue to work indefinitely at a below subsistence wage and survive.


How are you supposed to generate those without living above subsistence? Don't make much sense to me, further you call minimum wage undue interference in the market, but not pension? WTF? that's not even consistent.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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Re: Is Socialism Good *DELETED* [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10966165 -

Post deleted by Lakefingers

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: Lakefingers]
    #10966669 -

I should add also that minimum wage laws work. That bloke with the lawn, buggar him. The society he lives in obviously has more productive capacity to use him on if it has minimum wage laws than one that would let him work for 6.25 an hour or less. If he will mow his own lawn for less he can do that, if he can find an alternative to mowing his lawn, he can do that, if he has to pay extra to keep his lawn in tact I'm sure I'll have to shed a single tear for his misfortune. If he finds this slight inconvenience to be too much to bother with perhaps he would trade places with the ex-lawnmower who now has a job manufacturing lawn mowers for $12 an hour.

Sound like a socialist fairy tale? Nope, reality. Just like zounden said reality in every other developed country that has come out of recession already.

Though that said trying intentionally to keep a large unskilled workforce will backfire, unskilled labor is the cheapest in the world and having it is not beneficial to an economy. Otherwise developing nations would never bother training their workforce. Furthermore for reasons already outlined, low value for unskilled labor will lead to lowering demand or rather ability to pay for demand (cause there is a difference) of skilled labor. Thus decreasing the benefits for skilled people and causing skilled labor flight.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (08/30/09 02:44 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967063 -

fivepointer said:
fireworks_god said:
fivepointer said:
It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


If you're working for less than subsistence it is automatically implied that one is going to be homeless and starving.
That is what subsistence is, the source from which the means of food and other items necessary to exist is obtained.

Once again, if you want your lawn cut every week, you actually have to compensate the worker enough for them to continue to exist.


As I have already explained the person working would have other sources of income, say a small pension, or interest on savings.  They could continue to work indefinitely at a below subsistence wage and survive.


Where are those savings coming from, if he's getting paid below subsistence wage?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10967127 -

zouden said:
fivepointer said:
fireworks_god said:
fivepointer said:
It would not be "foolish" to work for less than subsistence if the alternative is homelessness and starvation.


If you're working for less than subsistence it is automatically implied that one is going to be homeless and starving.
That is what subsistence is, the source from which the means of food and other items necessary to exist is obtained.

Once again, if you want your lawn cut every week, you actually have to compensate the worker enough for them to continue to exist.


As I have already explained the person working would have other sources of income, say a small pension, or interest on savings.  They could continue to work indefinitely at a below subsistence wage and survive.


Where are those savings coming from, if he's getting paid below subsistence wage?


Perhaps he had a job and retired, or was let go. 

How would you even define what subsistence is?  If a person lives in a tent city or in a van down by the river, their living expenses would be very low.  Subsistence to one man is intolerable living to another.

Also ScavengerType mentioned about pensions.  Perhaps from the country he is from it has a different meaning, but where I am private companies may provide pensions and this is not inconsistent with a free market.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10967139 -

ScavengerType said:
I should add also that minimum wage laws work. That bloke with the lawn, buggar him. The society he lives in obviously has more productive capacity to use him on if it has minimum wage laws than one that would let him work for 6.25 an hour or less. If he will mow his own lawn for less he can do that, if he can find an alternative to mowing his lawn, he can do that, if he has to pay extra to keep his lawn in tact I'm sure I'll have to shed a single tear for his misfortune. If he finds this slight inconvenience to be too much to bother with perhaps he would trade places with the ex-lawnmower who now has a job manufacturing lawn mowers for $12 an hour.

Sound like a socialist fairy tale? Nope, reality. Just like zounden said reality in every other developed country that has come out of recession already.

Though that said trying intentionally to keep a large unskilled workforce will backfire, unskilled labor is the cheapest in the world and having it is not beneficial to an economy. Otherwise developing nations would never bother training their workforce. Furthermore for reasons already outlined, low value for unskilled labor will lead to lowering demand or rather ability to pay for demand (cause there is a difference) of skilled labor. Thus decreasing the benefits for skilled people and causing skilled labor flight.


Setting wages arbitrarily by force only "works" to make those whose marginal value is below the fixed wage rate unemployed.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967146 -

either way your example is not a likely example of what such a policy would lead to and in fact I would feel bad for anyone forced to work for lower than subsistence wage that would then be forced into it after retirement. This is probibly one of the greatest indignities that a country could force onto it's elderly and I can't believe you are even suggesting it.

edit:
Quote:
Setting wages arbitrarily by force only "works" to make those whose marginal value is below the fixed wage rate unemployed.


Not in practice. Only fixing the min wage at too high an amount would do this.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (08/30/09 04:02 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10967179 -

ScavengerType said:
either way your example is not a likely example of what such a policy would lead to and in fact I would feel bad for anyone forced to work for lower than subsistence wage that would then be forced into it after retirement. This is probibly one of the greatest indignities that a country could force onto it's elderly and I can't believe you are even suggesting it.


The problem is your living in a fairy tale.  If a person doesn't produce X amount of value how can you expect someone to pay them for over what they are producing.  Socialist schemes are always based on the use of force to rob person A and give to person B.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967215 -

And yet the US is still mired in recession while the rest of the world is recovering. If we're living in a fairy tale at least it's got a happy ending.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967216 -

That's what minimum wage is for so that the minimum value of labor in an economy can be forced upward. If a job is only worth doing unless one person does it for too low of wages, there is a problem in the marketplace and it will need to be rectified by whomever it is who is responsible for that sector. Eliminating min wage regulations will allow more inefficient operational methods to remain and stagnate measures towards efficiency in the economy.

You sure post a lot about economics, for someone who doesn't know shit about it.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (08/30/09 04:15 PM)

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: ScavengerType]
    #10967313 -

ScavengerType said:
That's what minimum wage is for so that the minimum value of labor in an economy can be forced upward. If a job is only worth doing unless one person does it for too low of wages, there is a problem in the marketplace and it will need to be rectified by whomever it is who is responsible for that sector. Eliminating min wage regulations will allow more inefficient operational methods to remain and stagnate measures towards efficiency in the economy.

You sure post a lot about economics, for someone who doesn't know shit about it.


Spoken like a true central planner.  Who are you to say what level of efficiency is acceptable?  Perhaps I will invest in an automated lawn cutting system because you have made labor so expensive.  Perhaps I will create a rock garden instead of grass.  Either way the lawn cutter no longer has a job thanks to the interference.  Now that unemployed low skilled labor can live off of the dole, another socialist solution - create more socialism to fix the effects of socialism.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967352 -

If you invest in an automated lawn cutting system then that guy can get a job building lawn cutting systems - which is a far better job than mowing lawns. Everyone wins.

If everyone had your attitude, farms would still have thousands of unskilled labourers instead of a few combine harvesters. Do you really think that's a better solution? Do you think that people should accept a less-than-subsistence wage because you keep threatening them with technology taking their jobs?

You sound like the villain in a Dickens novel.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10967372 -

true socialism is a good form of govt and way of life but when the human factor is introduced it would never work
it has good points and aspects but so do all forms of govt the best thing to do would be take all positives and strong points from all known forms of society and fix or counter the negatives
today is the 21st century. its a lot different than when most countries started out
(thats why the constitution was spose to be a living document)
we need a completely different form of govt in order for earth to function in a way that we dont just burn out by 2070 and go extrinct. we need to adapt and we need to progress because if we dont well just fall behind and become history like the dinosaurs


--------------------
Do mushrooms grow in your head?

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10967383 -

zouden said:
If you invest in an automated lawn cutting system then that guy can get a job building lawn cutting systems - which is a far better job than mowing lawns. Everyone wins.

If everyone had your attitude, farms would still have thousands of unskilled labourers instead of a few combine harvesters. Do you really think that's a better solution? Do you think that people should accept a less-than-subsistence wage because you keep threatening them with technology taking their jobs?

You sound like the villain in a Dickens novel.


Processes get automated because it is profitable to do so.  Profit drives the increased efficiency, no one needs to dictate that this happens, it happens naturally.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: fivepointer]
    #10967413 -

And having a minimum wage makes it more profitable to invest in automation. There, that wasn't so bad now was it?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10967548 -

zouden said:
And having a minimum wage makes it more profitable to invest in automation. There, that wasn't so bad now was it?


No, I decided to create a rock garden, no one wins.

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Re: Is Socialism Good [Re: zouden]
    #10967572 -

can you read fivepointer? Why does zounden have to repeat what I've already said?

edit: Good your flagellant water use was a burden to society.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

Edited by ScavengerType (08/30/09 05:09 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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