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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10897654 -

This still doesn't imply that space is expanding.

Read again...

trendal said:
Once you know a little more about the doppler shift (and how it effects light) then you have to start asking: what is the magnitude of the shift seen from other galaxies?

For any given galaxy the shift is toward the red, meaning they are traveling away from us (note this isn't true for some of the galaxies closest to us - but they are affected by our own gravity, and us by theirs). This means that, no matter which direction you look, galaxies are flying away from us. Further, the magnitude of the red shift is greater the farther away a galaxy is from us.

The only way that I know of to produce a red shift in every galaxy, and a greater shift the farther away you look, is to have an expanding universe. This was all discovered by a guy named Edwin Hubble. Check out his work sometime!


You're complete lack of knowledge on the subject is showing.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10897675 -

Alright, if the universe is finite in size, then what exists beyond it? Something other than the universe?

Bingo! Now we are getting somewhere!

Physicists only talk about our universe because it is the only thing which we can know anything about. What lies beyond our universe? Your guess is as good as mine.

There's not much point in a scientific discussion of anything outside our universe.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: trendal]
    #10897726 -

trendal said:
This still doesn't imply that space is expanding.

Read again...

trendal said:
Once you know a little more about the doppler shift (and how it effects light) then you have to start asking: what is the magnitude of the shift seen from other galaxies?

For any given galaxy the shift is toward the red, meaning they are traveling away from us (note this isn't true for some of the galaxies closest to us - but they are affected by our own gravity, and us by theirs). This means that, no matter which direction you look, galaxies are flying away from us. Further, the magnitude of the red shift is greater the farther away a galaxy is from us.

The only way that I know of to produce a red shift in every galaxy, and a greater shift the farther away you look, is to have an expanding universe. This was all discovered by a guy named Edwin Hubble. Check out his work sometime!


You're complete lack of knowledge on the subject is showing.


So because galaxies (which are composed of energy) are flying away from us no matter which direction we look, this means that the universe is finite? :what:


trendal said:
Alright, if the universe is finite in size, then what exists beyond it? Something other than the universe?

Bingo! Now we are getting somewhere!

Physicists only talk about our universe because it is the only thing which we can know anything about. What lies beyond our universe? Your guess is as good as mine.

There's not much point in a scientific discussion of anything outside our universe.


:facepalm:

Again, read the terms I laid out in the OP. There is no "our", "their", or "your" universe. In this thread, the term 'universe' means absolutely everything that is. So whatever the hell "lies beyond our universe" is part of the universe.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (08/20/09 02:06 PM)

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10897807 -

The big bang is expanding into a bigger bang.:shrug::doggystyle:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10897809 -

So because galaxies (which are composed of energy) are flying away from us no matter which direction we look, this means that the universe is infinite? :what:

Nice try...and no, I didn't say anything about infinities in my post.

It means exactly what I said it means: that space is expanding.

Again, read the terms I laid out in the OP. There is no "our", "their", or "your" universe. In this thread, the term 'universe' means absolutely everything that is. So whatever the hell "lies beyond our universe" is part of the universe.

If you are going to have a discussion about scientific things, you had better use the proper definitions for everything.

"Universe" is usually taken to mean a closed-system encompassing all that we can see, or could see.

"Multiverse" is the term usually applied to everything else.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Icelander]
    #10897899 -

trendal said:
So because galaxies (which are composed of energy) are flying away from us no matter which direction we look, this means that the universe is infinite? :what:

Nice try...and no, I didn't say anything about infinities in my post.

It means exactly what I said it means: that space is expanding.


Oops, I meant finite.


trendal said:
So because galaxies (which are composed of energy) are flying away from us no matter which direction we look, this means that the universe is infinite? :what:

Nice try...and no, I didn't say anything about infinities in my post.

It means exactly what I said it means: that space is expanding.

Again, read the terms I laid out in the OP. There is no "our", "their", or "your" universe. In this thread, the term 'universe' means absolutely everything that is. So whatever the hell "lies beyond our universe" is part of the universe.

If you are going to have a discussion about scientific things, you had better use the proper definitions for everything.

"Universe" is usually taken to mean a closed-system encompassing all that we can see, or could see.

"Multiverse" is the term usually applied to everything else.


Nah, that's not the definition that Wikipedia uses, nor is it the definition that we're using in this thread. It's important to define your terms before engaging in a debate with others, and that's why I did so in the OP. That point was brought up several times throughout this thread.


Icelander said:
The big bang is expanding into a bigger bang.:shrug::doggystyle:


From :humpme: to :3some:.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10897995 -

Oops, I meant finite.

Still not my point.

Nah, that's not the definition that Wikipedia uses

Um...yeah it is.

"The Universe comprises everything that physically exists: the entirety of space and time, all forms of matter, energy and momentum, and the physical laws and constants that govern them."

See that part about "the entirety of space and time" sets a limit on the universe. The universe is all spacetime. Outside the universe is not spacetime...thus it isn't our universe.

There is no "outside" to the universe, at least as far as we can be concerned, beings of matter and energy that we are. Matter and energy are both functions of our universe. The way things are.


I think people get sidetracked by the false notion that The Big Bang theory is a theory about the creation of the universe. It isn't. It is a theory about what occurred in the moments after our universe came into existence. Nothing can be said, of course, of what exists outside, before, or after our universe because everything we know about physics breaks down at the moment before the big bang happened.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: trendal]
    #10898048 -

trendal said:
I think people get sidetracked by the false notion that The Big Bang theory is a theory about the creation of the universe. It isn't. It is a theory about what occurred in the moments after our universe came into existence.


OK, but it still posits that existence didn't exist at some point. That's why it's false.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10898101 -

OK, but it still posits that existence didn't exist at some point. That's why it's false.

No.

It says that spacetime did not exist at some point. Something obviously did exist, even when spacetime didn't, because (logically) nothing comes from nothing.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: trendal]
    #10898130 -

As long as the Big Bang theory implies that non-existence is possible, it is false. That is all that this thread is concerned with, and I admit that I should've been clearer in the beginning. :wink:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10898140 -

As long as the Big Bang theory implies that non-existence is possible, it is false.

It doesn't imply anything like that.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: trendal]
    #10898160 -

That's why I said 'as long'.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10898212 -

As long as what?

TBB theory never implied that non-existence is possible. The very notion is laughable! Non-existance is impossible.

So, if TBB theory never implied that...why are we here again? Why the hell is this thread even here in the first place?


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: trendal]
    #10898226 -

I think it's time for an interlude:


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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: trendal]
    #10898280 -

trendal said:
As long as what?

TBB theory never implied that non-existence is possible. The very notion is laughable! Non-existance is impossible.

So, if TBB theory never implied that...why are we here again? Why the hell is this thread even here in the first place?


I think the thread is over; I, and many others were under the false impression that the Big Bang implied a period of non-existence. We were wrong! :yesnod:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10898560 -

Quote:
Alright, if the universe is finite in size, then what exists beyond it? Something other than the universe?


You can't have anything beyond it, if it has no boundaries.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10898673 -

Quote:
Again, read the terms I laid out in the OP. There is no "our", "their", or "your" universe. In this thread, the term 'universe' means absolutely everything that is. So whatever the hell "lies beyond our universe" is part of the universe.


I think most of the trouble in this thread has stemmed from you using the term universe to mean everything, and others (myself included) not using it as such.

If that is the case then I'm curious, why do you think there is nothing beyond our perceivable portion of this universe that this part of it could expand into?

Does TBBT imply that it is expanding into space that doesn't exist, or space we simply aren't aware of?


When I consider this universe being infinite, I don't think it ends with this vacuum. It may very well be just another layer.


--------------------
Let's get the fuck out of here.

Edited by Bernackums (08/20/09 04:10 PM)

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: zouden]
    #10898757 -

zouden said:
Quote:
Alright, if the universe is finite in size, then what exists beyond it? Something other than the universe?


You can't have anything beyond it, if it has no boundaries.



to be identified as an "it" representing something, doesnt that by the nature of identifications bring in a notion of distinguishibility; thus some sort of border? So it seems there could be some infinite regress here with this logic. Or do we assume that at some point there is a dogmatic axiom, a unity of all being that permeates everything in a paradoxical sort of way that really kind of disgusts our minds graspings. There is some sort of eternal substantial foundation between all that could be conceived, and everything perhaps is. So everything is some sort of self caused thing... or this is a closed off system created by some machinist god who we could only assume creates other systems all over blah blah, but who made him, and the dude who made him, and so on... our causal and logic oriented mind seems fucked in this pursuit and at some level it just has to get a bit dogmatic.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

Edited by andrewss (08/20/09 04:22 PM)

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: andrewss]
    #10898838 -

Quote:
to be identified as an "it" representing something, doesnt that by the nature of identifications bring in a notion of distinguishibility; thus some sort of border?


Sure. It means we can conceive of other universes, and it's probably very likely that there are other universes.

What I'm arguing against is the idea that because the universe is finite, there has to be something "outside" it. I'm pointing out that the universe probably has no boundaries, and if that's the case then there is no "outside".

Going back to the Earth analogy, you can't fall of the edge of the world. There is nothing "outside" the Earth's surface, it just keeps going until you come back to the start again. If you want to leave the surface entirely, you have to move in a third dimension (up). So, with the universe being 3 dimensions, you would have to move in a fourth dimension to leave it.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: zouden]
    #10898899 -

So would you say in some sense being is layered? We might point that this extended realm seems to maybe of had a genesis in a spatial sense but there is some sort of inability in our minds to really create a good idea about the preceding nature if it had a genesis. So there could be a connection. I do not think the earth analogy pulls much of anything off... This whole pursuit is crazy.... argh

Wouldnt there have to be some sort of substantial relationship between the said universes, to even be able to conceive of affirming its presence, some fundamental shared property.

Cause and effect taken to the extreme is a hefty bitch :wink:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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