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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: virus1824]
    #10889483 -

Rahz said:
Of interest to this discussion may be the terms: Mahakalpa and Mahapralaya

Hindu terms meaning; life cycle of the universe, and the end of the cycle.

Total time for the cycle in the Hindi tradition: just over 311 trillion years.


Bernackums said:
Quote:
I already said that it doesn't make sense for the universe to be expanding...maybe the energy/matter within the universe is getting farther and farther apart from itself, but the universe itself cannot expand because this implies that it is finite.


Are you implying that it isn't? For informations sake.


Of course it isn't finite. If the universe is finite, then something other then existence exists beyond its bounds. This makes absolutely no sense if you think about it...:strokebeard:


virus1824 said:
Quote:
There is no proof that dark matter exists.



Dark matter exerts gravitational force. We detected that already by studying colliding galaxies..

check the article here: NASA Finds Direct Proof of Dark Matter

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2006/aug/HQ_06297_CHANDRA_Dark_Matter.html

Quote:
Saying the big bang theory is false is nonsense anyway since its a theory based upon...experiments and data collected by observation.



Quote:
This statement doesn't make sense, you're saying that since the Big Bang is a theory based on experiments and data collected by observation, it has to be true. Where is the logic in that?





Why are you talking to me about dark matter, I was not involved in any of that. I don't understand why you presented those quotes, did you have a point? :justdontknow:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10889693 -

Quote:
Of course it isn't finite. If the universe is finite, then something other then existence exists beyond its bounds. This makes absolutely no sense if you think about it...:strokebeard:



And why must the universe make sense?  The universe doesnt care whether it makes sense to Poid or not.  Thats the problem (and ultimately the failing) of such armchair philosophy.

To me, a finite or infinite universe equally dont make sense.  However I have learned enough to know that what makes sense to me is irrelevant with respect to how the universe actually works.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10889728 -

"And why must the universe make sense?"

Most things in the universe make sense, why would the universe itself not make sense? :shrug:


"Thats the problem (and ultimately the failing) of such armchair philosophy."

I guess that's the problem (and ultimately the failing) of any other kind of philosophy, too, then. :shrug:


"To me, a finite or infinite universe equally dont make sense."

Either things are or aren't, they can't be both. :shrug:


"However I have learned enough to know that what makes sense to me is irrelevant with respect to how the universe actually works."

Can you give me some examples of this? :naughty:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10889816 -

Most things in the universe make sense, why would the universe itself not make sense?

I dont know why it would, but evidence shows it doesn't.  (Plus, I dont agree with your premise and even if it is true it doesn't imply your conclusion.  Most things making sense doesnt imply all things make sense.)


I guess that's the problem (and ultimately the failing) of any other kind of philosophy, too, then.

Nope.  Non-armchair philosophies (like science) dont depend on things making sense.


Either things are or aren't, they can't be both.

More baseless assumptions. 


Can you give me some examples of this?

Nearly all of physics.


Of course I understand that this forum and most of its patrons are anti-science and hence anti-physics in general, so Im sure thats not a satisfactory answer for you.  Scientific theories dont necessarily conform to our preconceived notions and intuition, which turns off many of the people who trust heavily in their intuition and project the way they want things to be to the way things are.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10889868 -

"I dont know why it would, but evidence shows it doesn't.  (Plus, I dont agree with your premise and even if it is true it doesn't imply your conclusion.  Most things making sense doesnt imply all things make sense.)"

Evidence shows that the universe doesn't make sense? Sources?


Nope.  Non-armchair philosophies (like science) dont depend on things making sense.

Name one widely-accepted scientific theory that doesn't make sense.


"More baseless assumptions."

Really? How about the non-existent money in my bank account, it either exists or it doesn't, right? if not, then what's the third alternative?


"Nearly all of physics."

Are you saying that nearly all of physics is composed of nonsensical theories?


"Of course I understand that this forum and most of its patrons are anti-science and hence anti-physics in general, so Im sure thats not a satisfactory answer for you."

I don't think anyone here is either anti-science or anti-physics, I don't know why you think this. The reason that this isn't a satisfactory answer for me is because what you've basically told me is, "You're wrong because you're incapable of understanding the truth due to your preconceived notions and intuition", but you haven't explained specifically how I'm wrong.


"Scientific theories dont necessarily conform to our preconceived notions and intuition, which turns off many of the people who trust heavily in their intuition and project the way they want things to be to the way things are."

I never said they do; unless you're tying this point with an actual argument, this is irrelevent. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10889945 -

Evidence shows that the universe doesn't make sense? Sources?

Isnt that why you made this thread?  Evidence that the universe is finite and expanding doesnt make sense to you. 

Name one widely-accepted scientific theory that doesn't make sense.

Relativity.

Are you saying that nearly all of physics is composed of nonsensical theories?

Yes.  This was the great struggle that physics went through in the 20th century.  The old guard desperately wanted physical theories to makes sense and be intuitively understandable.  But sticking to that idea that theories must make sense led to an utter failing at describing observed phenomenon.  By casting aside the requirement that physics makes intuitive sense the new generations were able to develop very accurate theories that can describe nearly all basic phenomenon.  The computer you are reading this on is a result of such non-intuitive theories.

The reason that this isn't a satisfactory answer for me is because what you've basically told me is, "You're wrong because you're incapable of understanding the truth due to your preconceived notions and intuition", but you haven't explained specifically how I'm wrong.

This is how you are wrong:  "If the universe is finite, then something other then existence exists beyond its bounds. This makes absolutely no sense if you think about it..."  Your sole form of evidence is what makes sense to you.

I don't think anyone here is either anti-science or anti-physics, I don't know why you think this.
:lol:  Ok.

I never said they do...
Yes you did.  In post 10889483, among others.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10889996 -

You seem to think that it was merely intuition that led me to my conclusion. I will post a full reply to your post later when I have time. :leaving:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10890353 -

Obvz.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: DieCommie]
    #10890877 -

"Isnt that why you made this thread?  Evidence that the universe is finite and expanding doesnt make sense to you."

Well, yeah, I made this thread because I felt that a certain scientific theory ultimitely didn't make sense.

There isn't hard evidence for the Big Bang theory, only supporting evidence. I can dig that the matter contained within the universe is spreading apart, but the assertion that space itself can expand doesn't make sense because of the impossibility of non-existence. It's not like a finite universe doesn't make sense to me merely because I feel that way, I've demonstrated with words how this is true, and so far, nobody has refuted said words. :shrug:


"Relativity."

From what I know about relativity, it makes perfect sense. What part of relativity doesn't make sense?


"Yes.  This was the great struggle that physics went through in the 20th century.  The old guard desperately wanted physical theories to makes sense and be intuitively understandable.  But sticking to that idea that theories must make sense led to an utter failing at describing observed phenomenon.  By casting aside the requirement that physics makes intuitive sense the new generations were able to develop very accurate theories that can describe nearly all basic phenomenon.  The computer you are reading this on is a result of such non-intuitive theories."

Again, you think that intuition led me to my hypothesis, even though I've clearly explained my assertions over and over.


"This is how you are wrong:  "If the universe is finite, then something other then existence exists beyond its bounds. This makes absolutely no sense if you think about it..."  Your sole form of evidence is what makes sense to you."

My sole form of evidence is logic.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10891025 -

Quote:
I can dig that the matter contained within the universe is spreading apart, but the assertion that space itself can expand doesn't make sense because of the impossibility of non-existence.


It's the same thing?


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10891045 -

and the Big Bang Theory implies that the universe was non-existant at some point

The Big Bang Theory does not imply, neither implicitly nor explicitly, that the universe did not exist at some point.

What you are basing you're assertion on is flawed.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: trendal]
    #10891077 -

zouden said:
Quote:
I can dig that the matter contained within the universe is spreading apart, but the assertion that space itself can expand doesn't make sense because of the impossibility of non-existence.


It's the same thing?


How the hell is matter the same thing as the space it's contained in?


trendal said:
and the Big Bang Theory implies that the universe was non-existant at some point

The Big Bang Theory does not imply, neither implicitly nor explicitly, that the universe did not exist at some point.

What you are basing you're assertion on is flawed.


This point has been discussed over and over.

Quote:
The Big Bang is the cosmological model of the initial conditions and subsequent development of the universe that is supported by the most comprehensive and accurate explanations from current scientific evidence and observation. As used by cosmologists, the term Big Bang generally refers to the idea that the universe has expanded from a primordial hot and dense initial condition at some finite time in the past, and continues to expand to this day.


If the universe is finite, then that means it didn't exist at some point.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10891094 -

No, you said that you can understand matter spreading apart, but not that the space itself is expanding. It's the same thing.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10891098 -

The text doesn't imply the universe is finite, it emplies the Big Bang happened at some specific point in time.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Sventington]
    #10891116 -

zouden said:
No, you said that you can understand matter spreading apart, but not that the space itself is expanding. It's the same thing.


No, it's not. :shake:


Sventington said:
The text doesn't imply the universe is finite, it emplies the Big Bang happened at some specific point in time.


It says that the universe expands, which implies that it's finite.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10891119 -

There isn't hard evidence for the Big Bang theory, only supporting evidence.

On the contrary...there is plenty of evidence! Just look at the microwave background radiation, for example.

Try to come up with some other process that would result in the MBR (other than an expanding universe).

the assertion that space itself can expand doesn't make sense because of the impossibility of non-existence

Again, check out "the doppler shift" for a great explanation of why space must be expanding.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10891125 -

Quote:
If the universe is finite, then that means it didn't exist at some point.


The universe has always existed, because time itself began when the universe did. There was no "at some point" that the universe didn't exist.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: zouden]
    #10891150 -

The universe has always existed, because time itself began when the universe did.

Just curious as to how you know this to be fact?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: trendal]
    #10891151 -

"On the contrary...there is plenty of evidence! Just look at the microwave background radiation, for example.

Try to come up with some other process that would result in the MBR (other than an expanding universe)."

There is no direct evidence because nobody was around to witness the event, all we have is different peices to a puzzle. What is the MBR?


From Doppler effect - Wikipedia:
Quote:
The Doppler effect (or Doppler shift), named after Austrian physicist Christian Doppler who proposed it in 1842, is the change in frequency of a wave for an observer moving relative to the source of the waves. It is commonly heard when a vehicle sounding a siren approaches, passes and recedes from an observer. The received frequency is increased (compared to the emitted frequency) during the approach, it is identical at the instant of passing by, and it is decreased during the recession.

For waves that propagate in a medium, such as sound waves, the velocity of the observer and of the source are relative to the medium in which the waves are transmitted. The total Doppler effect may therefore result from motion of the source, motion of the observer, or motion of the medium. Each of these effects is analyzed separately. For waves which do not require a medium, such as light or gravity in general relativity, only the relative difference in velocity between the observer and the source needs to be considered.




I don't see anything here that supports the notion that space must be expanding. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10891170 -

Poid said:
zouden said:
No, you said that you can understand matter spreading apart, but not that the space itself is expanding. It's the same thing.


No, it's not. :shake:


Sventington said:
The text doesn't imply the universe is finite, it emplies the Big Bang happened at some specific point in time.


It says that the universe expands, which implies that it's finite.



I think this is the point where intuitive reasoning starts to fail us. I've heard it said that the Universe is infinite in size yet it expands, which doesn't seem to make any sense to me either. I've heard it said that if one could travel in a straight line faster than the rate of the Universe's expansion, (in a scenario where they weren't ripped to shreds etc) one would end up right back where they started, given enough time.

I don't understand it either, but I accept it. Why? Because I'm not smart enough to learn the math myself. If thousands of people smarter than me have done the math and ended up with that conclusion, than who am I to say they're wrong?

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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