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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10865300 -

I'm sure they will expose all the holes in my logic that the Shroomery failed to. :satansmoking:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10865833 -

Poid said:
Premise: The Big-Bang Theory is false.

Evidence: Since absolute non-existence is merely an impossible hypothetical scenario, the Universe has always existed, and is also therefore infinite.

Conclusion: Since the universe is infinite, non-existence is merely an impossible hypothetical scenario, and the Big Bang Theory implies that the universe was non-existant at some point, it is false.




As others have said, you haven't supported your conclusion.  You just say non-existance is impossible so the universe has always existed.


So what?  What does that have to do with the big bang? 


You touch on this in the conclusion ( a bit strange, since you've shown no evidence for it) that the big bang implies non-existance, but you don't demonstrate that it does, and therefore you've go ta whole in yoru logic.



(I'm also unsure if the word 'universe' as used in teh big bang is inclusive of time, space, matter, energy, et cet prior to the big bang, if not then there is no problem with it not existing prior to the big bang.  Have you dealt with this?  I didn't see that you had...)

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: johnm214]
    #10866326 -

This is a bit off topic, but non-existance gave me my first mind fuck.

It was a long time ago, before I smoked pot or used psychedelics I think.  I thought, what if there had been no big bang, what if nothing ever existed?  What would there be?

I kept thinking on this, and it just messed with my mind until I just said to myself.  "Just stop thinking about it, the universe exists, so pondering non-existence is just futile".

I just remember that moment reading this thread.

As for the big bang, it didn't start from nothing, just a singularity.

I like silversoul's Ideas too.


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"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

Albert Einstein

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10866431 -

Poid said:
I'm sure they will expose all the holes in my logic that the Shroomery failed to. :satansmoking:


If you believe you have a valid challenge, then a physics board will give you much better analysis than a 'stoner' board.

Of course, we know you are just killing time and so you post here.


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (08/15/09 07:31 PM)

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10866560 -

I have to agree.

I will take another way towards this conclusion by drawing on two premises

1. Expansion is something which is measured, only within a limited scale. IE. If I start at 6 pounds at birth and I am only going to reach 150, once I reach 71.5 pounds, I will have expanded in weight 50%.

2. The universe is an infinite structure. Infinite defined as having the quality of no beginning and no end. I draw this premise from the fact that matter cannot be created or destroyed.

Conclusion and Reasoning.

If the big ban theory assumes that the universe is expanding and yet another theory shows that the universe is infinite( Refer to premise 2), there is a contradiction in scientific understanding of the universe that states as follows; in order for something to expand, there must be a tangible and recognizable limit that we can say without certainty that the object expand resides within. However, we all know that since the universe does not reside within a limit and is infinite, then the big bang theory, as a theory that is based in the premise that the universe lies within a limit(junction of premise one and reasoning) has to be discarded or the theory that matter cannot be created or destroyed must be discarded.

Resolve

It seems that what we have is a leap of logic here, where two premises decide the conclusion for this very interesting question; is the universe infinite or is it limited?

I believe infinite(refer to premise one)

therefore the big bang theory just went out with a whimper.

:rockon:


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if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10866644 -

The universe is not infinite. We can measure it and we know it's rate of expansion.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: EdgeChaos]
    #10866657 -

Not exactly. We cannot measure the distance to any galaxies outside of the light horizon - and never will be able to do so.


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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10866724 -

Well I'm sad to say I cannot find the source.

I was listening to public radio (NPR or the BBC or somthing) and they were interviewing a scientist who said that they now know the actual rate of expansion of the universe.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: EdgeChaos]
    #10866983 -

It would be impossible for something to expand, when it cannot be created or destroyed.

I use the word expand to refer to the addition of components that a thing did not originally have. Ie. I expanded from an infant to an adult. I have also lost 25 pounds and from that point I have contracted.

Therefore, since the universe cannot be increased in quantity from its original state, in accordance to the theory that matter cannot be created or destroyed, then it it is impossible for me to assume that it is expanding.

Resolve
I really have to go more in depth with why it is that the theory that matter cannot be created or destroyed is enough reasoning to conclude that the universe is infinite.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10866999 -

Quote:
Therefore, since the universe cannot be increased in quantity from its original state, in accordance to the theory that matter cannot be created or destroyed, then it it is impossible for me to assume that it is expanding.


The existing matter is just getting further apart.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: zouden]
    #10867140 -

yeah, and the universe isn't increasing in quantity.  It was one then and its one now.  The same.


Either way, zouden nailed it.  The universe expanding refers to the size of it, not to the quantity of matter.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: johnm214]
    #10867285 -

Quote:
The universe expanding refers to the size of it, not to the quantity of matter.


Guess you haven't been to a mall lately...


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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: zouden]
    #10867421 -

zouden said:
Quote:
Therefore, since the universe cannot be increased in quantity from its original state, in accordance to the theory that matter cannot be created or destroyed, then it it is impossible for me to assume that it is expanding.


The existing matter is just getting further apart.



:thumbup:

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: Poid]
    #10867784 -

I like how you define your terms before stating the argument.  :thumbup:

But I dont really understand your argument.  Remenmber, big bang theory only describes the process the universe has gone under in the last 13.6 billion years.  Thats all it is about.

Quote:
Remember, it's just a theory...


:facepalm:

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10867876 -

Proximity, time, space, universe, etc. are all ideas that exists in the mind of humans.

The universe is more than humans.

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: zouden]
    #10867917 -

zouden said:
Quote:
Therefore, since the universe cannot be increased in quantity from its original state, in accordance to the theory that matter cannot be created or destroyed, then it it is impossible for me to assume that it is expanding.


The existing matter is just getting further apart.



Zouden. This is so difficult to explain to you, your argument says nothing because it gives no premise. It seems that your argument is simply a re-statement of the theory that the universe is expanding. "Existing matter is moving farther apart" is an more complex way to say its expanding. What proof do you have AND more importantly, how do they disprove my premises?

Qubit, SHIT is necessary. It reduces and potentially makes it impossible that we face the possibility that we have agreed or disagreed arbitrarily. Arbitrarily signifies that has no relation to another thing. Ie. You ask me if god exists, I say yes, then we proceed to realize that we agree. However, the encryption 'GOD' represents to me, all that exists and to you potentially a more religious thematic GOD. From this it is simple to see why we did not actually agree in relation to the topic(GOD). 'relation' being the key word there, in the context of what arbitrary means.

I especially hate disagreeing abirtrarily, arguments go around in circles and circles, until either we ask each other what we mean about certain words or we fuck each other off, to the point of useless banter. I cant imagine how many times this has happened to me, how many emotions arise from this shit, I know it saved my relationship with my girlfriend ALOT of emotional turmoil. Just leaving the emotion suspended until we define the important words that are known to have multiple meanings.

I laugh now thinking about it. :laugh:

:rockon:


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10867979 -

Alpha, how can you argue that the universe is not expanding? This is an understood truth in the scientific community.

Since we are using wikipedia for this thread:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_expansion_of_space

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: AlphaFalfa]
    #10867990 -

Quote:
Zouden. This is so difficult to explain to you, your argument says nothing because it gives no premise. It seems that your argument is simply a re-statement of the theory that the universe is expanding. "Existing matter is moving farther apart" is an more complex way to say its expanding. What proof do you have AND more importantly, how do they disprove my premises?


You say it as if it's my theory. It's not. It's just the big bang theory, the way it's taught in high school. You were saying that it can't be true because matter can't be created, and I'm simply pointing out that the theory doesn't claim that matter is created; the matter has always been there, but it's getting further apart from itself. All atoms are moving away from one another. Even the space within the atoms are expanding. So the big bang theory doesn't violate the theory of conservation of matter :smile:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: zouden]
    #10868158 -

And once again Zuzu proves his worth as the Shroomery Labcoat Guy. :bow2:


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Re: The Big Bang Theory is false [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10868306 -

"The metric expansion of space is the averaged increase of metric (i.e. measured) distance between distant objects in the universe with time. It is an intrinsic expansion—that is, it is defined by the relative separation of parts of the universe and not by motion "outward" into preexisting space. (The universe is not expanding "into" anything outside of itself.)"

It seems here that expanding is not being used in the same terms as we use it and that I have used it.

I used that word to describe movement into some space. (Refer back to my premises about expansion in my first post)

Here, they do not use expansion in this sense.

I still see a problem with this theory.

1.It can be found in the following verse. "The metric expansion of space is the averaged increase of metric (i.e. measured) distance between distant objects in the universe with time."

I believe that the universe is infinite, in accordance with the theory that matter cannot be created or destroyed. On behalf of this premise I cannot agree with the statement that the universe has a fixed, limited set of objects. Plurality, such as the plurality implied in the word 'objects' cannot exist within an infinite structure because plurality is a word that describes a set of things that begins at one point and ends at another(is limited). Ie. A set of numbers begins at the first number and ends at the last. A set of 10 apples begins with the first and ends with the 10th.

However, because I believe the universe is infinite, then plurality, as implied in the previous verse, is an arbitrary way to describe the universe because it assumes that it is a limited set of objects, which is expanding as a reflection of the space between those objects.


--------------------
if you ever feel lost, just remember, life is not a journey, it is entertainment, all 4 fun...


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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