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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: zouden]
    #10400987 -

When a non-point is the best one has, one must keep harping on it.


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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: zouden]
    #10402174 -

what's the longest thread in the history of this subforum?

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: Sventington]
    #10402189 -

Sventington said:
what's the longest thread in the history of this subforum?



I'm hoping to achieve this record. :thumbup:


--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever!
The U.S. Constitution!

Best WBS Tek
EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek
MY TRADES

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: Sventington]
    #10402558 -

The beauty of this thread is that you can turn to any page and read nearly the exact same exchange.


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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10402653 -

:sadyes:


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: zouden]
    #10405243 -

Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:1)  It's a motor.
2)  It's similarity to human machines is striking.


Of course it's a motor.  It converts electrical potential (in this case a proton gradient) to rotational energy.  Many things do that and I suspect you're playing off most peoples' conception of a motor as that thing in your car that makes it go.

I have to disagree with the biologists Matzke cites here.  Its similarity to human machines is *not* striking, but I would say its rotational symmetry is.  When you get used to seeing embedded proteins that are big blobs of goo (at least if you look at it just as a stick model), things like channels or flagella would certainly be a nice, more-ordered (simple) change.  I already gave a nice example of the obvious differences between a man-made machine and the flagellum.  How many motors do you find which operate stochastically with a gradient of particle comparable to the size of the motor itself (within an order of magnitude)?  How many do you find which operate by fits and starts, a jaggedy motion due not to an imbalance but its very nature?

I'm going to assume that since you can find time to pick these nits, you have the time to actually, you know, do the tiniest bit of defense of your points about ID but are merely avoiding doing so.  I had taken your previous silence as a good sign: hey, maybe he realized the idiocy of his prioritization and excuses about not having enough time.  Alas!

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: Shirakawasuna]
    #10405514 -

I doubt it man.  People have been asking him to show one actual consequence of ID necessary to its truth that can be detected and found present or absent, and he's repeatedly ignored them and instead argued side issues- in every thread I've seen. (the only exception is bare conclusory statements that he refuses to back up- so the truth of his assertions or the way in which they are derived cannot be verified nor applied to other phenomena to see if the hypothesis is false)


It seems dishonest to me at this point.  Either he needs to back off claiming that ID has any measurable thing to say about the world or he needs to verify that it is so. 


On this showing ID is nothing more than a vague conglomerate of ideas with premises that rest clearly in the imagination.  Its nothing more than a thought experiment (an apparently incomplete one) that cannot be translated to the real world as its very premises cannot be demonstrated, let alone the actual consequences measured.

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausi [Re: johnm214]
    #10408058 -

johnm214, you put it much better than I could :smile:.  I second your summary and the simple request that must accompany it: if someone claims to have a verifiable, scientific point, they should be able to demonstrate that it's both.

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausi [Re: Shirakawasuna]
    #10408316 -

:lockdance:


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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausi [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10409121 -

Sarcasm is definitely your forte...


--------------------
Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD
Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE.
Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever!
The U.S. Constitution!

Best WBS Tek
EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek
MY TRADES

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: zouden]
    #10417959 -

zouden said:
Hardly a contentious issue. What we call it is irrelevant. What's your point?


Actually, no.  It is what you choose to call irrelevant.  The obvious point is that it is a motor.  You can run from the word, deny it or call it irrelevant.  Doesn't matter.  It is a motor.  Deal with it.

By the law of induction we would logically conclude that a motor is designed by someone, built by someone.

The link continues:

Quote:
The impression is heightened by electron micrograph images (Figure 1) reminiscent of a engine turbine (e.g., Whitesides, 2001), and the scientific literature on the flagellum is filled with analogies to human-designed motors.  There is no shortage of authorities willing to express mystification on the question of the evolutionary origin of flagella.  In a 1978 review, Macnab concluded,

As a final comment, one can only marvel at the intricacy, in a simple bacterium, of the total motor and sensory system which has been the subject of this review and remark that our concept of evolution by selective advantage must surely be an oversimplification. What advantage could derive, for example, from a "preflagellum" (meaning a subset of its components), and yet what is the probability of "simultaneous" development of the organelle at a level where it becomes advantageous?" (Macnab, 1978). 



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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: Shirakawasuna]
    #10417967 -

Shirakawasuna said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:1)  It's a motor.
2)  It's similarity to human machines is striking.


Of course it's a motor.  <snip>


Bravo!  :congrats: A point of agreement.

Quote:
Shirakawasuna said:
I have to disagree with the biologists Matzke cites here.


So now we have slipped from professional opinions from tenured biologists writing in peer-reviewed journals to YOUR opinion?

:rofl2:

:whatever: dude

Here's the micrograph from the link.



Nah, that doesn't look anything like a motor.  :rolleyes:


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Edited by Mr. Mushrooms (05/29/09 05:47 AM)

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10417976 -

It's either pretty fucking sad or highlarious when you have to drag people over the finish line to admit a motor is a motor.

Could this be intransigence? 

Nah, not with such a bunch of open minded folks like atheist evolutionists.  We all know they're all about the evidence.  :rolleyes:


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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10418229 -

MM, this the worst argument you've ever made. By far. I'm not even sure it dignifies a response. Do you honestly think, after all we've discussed, that you can just show a picture of something and smugly declare that it's designed? Are you high?

Mr. Mushrooms said:


Nah, that doesn't look anything like a motor.  :rolleyes:


No, it looks like the Monument to the Great Fire of London. Was the flagellum designed by Christopher Wren?



Quote:
Nah, not with such a bunch of open minded folks like atheist evolutionists.


I'm not sure what you think is worse - evolutionists, or atheists. It's interesting that you mention them in the same sentence, since you've made such an effort in the past to maintain the illusion that ID has nothing to do with religion.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: zouden]
    #10418441 -

Let's tear this post apart piece by piece.

zouden said:
MM, this the worst argument you've ever made. By far.  I'm not even sure it dignifies a response.



A subjective opinion worth nothing.

zouden said:
Do you honestly think, after all we've discussed, that you can just show a picture of something and smugly declare that it's designed?


I didn't "just show a picture," I posted substantial evidence and opinion about the motor which you ignored.  It's in the post above.

zouden said:
Are you high?


I don't do drugs but I assume you do.  Wouldn't that question fit better the other way around?

zouden said:
Mr. Mushrooms said:


Nah, that doesn't look anything like a motor.  :rolleyes:


No, it looks like the Monument to the Great Fire of London. Was the flagellum designed by Christopher Wren?


And you know what x-ray photographs of motors look like?  I didn't know that was part of neurophysics.  It's just another idiotic red herring when a poster can't respond to the substantive portions of my posts.  I did respond to you, yet you choose to respond to this post instead.  Would you like to explain to the other kiddies why you chose to do that?  I know I'm pretty curious.

zouden said:
Quote:
Nah, not with such a bunch of open minded folks like atheist evolutionists.


I'm not sure what you think is worse - evolutionists, or atheists. It's interesting that you mention them in the same sentence, since you've made such an effort in the past to maintain the illusion that ID has nothing to do with religion.


Misunderstanding my posts again?  I never said ID had nothing to do with religion.  In fact I said it was obvious it had theological implications.  I created a thread on it.

Let me break this side issue down for you:

Intelligent design=theological implications
Evolution=theological implications

And for the record (again), I think atheists are by far worse because they are fools.  They claim to know with certitude that which cannot be known.


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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10418712 -

Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: The obvious point is that it is a motor.  You can run from the word, deny it or call it irrelevant.  Doesn't matter.  It is a motor.  Deal with it.

By the law of induction we would logically conclude that a motor is designed by someone, built by someone.


I see no substantiation for this inference.  OK, so it's a motor.  What's your point?  Will you at least admit that it is possible for a motor to occur through natural selection and mutation?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: deCypher]
    #10418736 -

deCypher said:
  Will you at least admit that it is possible for a motor to occur through natural selection and mutation?


Well, let's see.  I must have seen or known of thousands of motors in my life and ALL of them were designed and built by someone.  So, do I think it's possible for a motor to occur naturally?  I think it's as likely as the Pope being an atheist.  That doesn't rule out EVERY possibility, just most of them.

Hey, how do we know the Pope isn't lying about his faith?  Maybe he's a closet atheist and just wanted a good paycheck.  :justdontknow:


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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10418752 -

Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said: So, do I think it's possible for a motor to occur naturally?  I think it's as likely as the Pope being an atheist.


IYO, what then created the motor?  If it's another material being, then they had to come from somewhere, or they in turn were designed.  Following this line of logic, we must either conclude that at some point a material being evolved purely from natural selection and mutation, or that a supernatural, immaterial being created them.

Let's explore these two options:

In the first case, we are claiming that a material being capable of designing other beings came from natural selection and mutation.  Wouldn't an ontologically simpler theory be that instead of us being designed by species X, which was in turn designed by species Y, which in turn came from natural selection and mutation, that it was our species which came from natural selection and mutation?  I see no reason to invent additional steps in the chain of creation when Occam's Razor suffices and when we have no tangible evidence of these other species.

In the second case, we are claiming that a supernatural being capable of designing other beings exists, or at least existed at some point.  Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back this up?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: deCypher]
    #10418820 -

deCypher said:
In the second case, we are claiming that a supernatural being capable of designing other beings exists, or at least existed at some point.  Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back this up?


Deep desire. :failboat:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: (Movie)Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed - Ben Stein's Documentary. Intelligent Design Is Plausible. [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #10418833 -

:lol:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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