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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10202237 -

I haven't read the Bible in a few months, but I thought God killed whoever He witnessed offending His commandments; God doesn't need eyewitness accounts. :wink:



OrgoneConclusion said:
I was in a Unitarian Church that had no statues.


Oh. Out of pure curiosity, can I ask why you were there? :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Poid]
    #10202243 -

Quote:
Poid said: In the OT, no one who follows God's commandments gets killed.


Either way, I wouldn't want to worship a God who enforces his laws with bloodshed and murder.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: deCypher]
    #10202259 -

deCypher said:
Quote:
Poid said: In the OT, no one who follows God's commandments gets killed.


Either way, I wouldn't want to worship a God who enforces his laws with bloodshed and murder.


Me neither.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Poid]
    #10202281 -

Sad part is that if we lived during that time we'd have to worship or face being turned into a pillar of salt.  :eek:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: deCypher]
    #10202333 -

I've interpreted this aspect of the bible as:

Neither violence nor non-violence is promoted. Both are observed.

The nature of the world is that both exist. To deny it, or to show only one, would have not been truthful. If God is all, then God is violence and peace, which the bible embodies fairly well IMO.


edit: I called it the bilbe...


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

Edited by Kickle (04/20/09 03:29 PM)

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: deCypher]
    #10202345 -

Well hey, God freed us from being slaves for the Egyptians and delivered to us a land of milk and honey. I would have probably worshipped him for appearances, but not have taken him seriously; either I'm an Egyptian slave, or God's slave. :bondage:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Poid]
    #10202359 -

Quote:
God doesn't need eyewitness accounts.


Funny how it worked out the brothers, friends and neighbors were the guilty ones. A bizarre crime, with a more bizarre line up of perpetrators. Can we close the case Moses? "Hold on, let me check with God..... God says Yes! Good job boys.":grin:


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Rahz]
    #10202849 -

Quote:
I've interpreted this aspect of the bible as:

Neither violence nor non-violence is promoted. Both are observed.

The nature of the world is that both exist. To deny it, or to show only one, would have not been truthful. If God is all, then God is violence and peace, which the bible embodies fairly well IMO.


edit: I called it the bilbe...


I agree with Kickle, the book is observed and is read as a free expression.  We might indicate that it is clearly contrived, or just in bad taste, but our thoughts are directed towards the expression, not its impact. In other words, the original post seems to clearly imply a "quality control", that is the same to any expression; a short diversion to another throne.


--------------------
Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
  The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
  The frumious Bandersnatch!

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10205386 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Another poster alluded to the (non-fact) that all school shootings are done by atheists. I don't want to directly address that, but the implication that religious people are less violent than atheists. I see no indication that this is true, but let's go back to the source for a moment.

Non-violence:

Thou shalt not kill.
Love thy neighbor as thyself.
Various other teachings of Jesus.


Pro-violence:

All of the various sex and other crimes in Leviticus that demand capital punishment.

Hundreds of historical examples of glorifying war and slaughter as long as the Israelites are doing the slaughter.

There appears no clear or consistent stand on violence except to justify it when you are going to do it - which is what everyone does anyway.



I don't think its really a surprise that school shootings are done by what folks identify as atheists.  Adolescents in this country would be called atheists if they didn't believe in a large religion (or a small controversial one) regardless of their true beliefs.

Religions don't condone those acts, and the people who do them are likely pretty antisocial.  Such a person is unlikely to adhere to a religion- especially given the discord with a rebelling youth's point of view and the often illogical "just do it" explanation for religious practices.


So basically, the people most likely to commit school shootings are those who are also unlikely to be a member of a recognized religion, and if they believed in god we'd never know it unless they were a member of a church given the way the media covers such things.




I don't think you can say the bible really promotes anything whatsoever.  It doesn't have a coherent message and can be used to justify just about anything, so its really hard to say anything about this.  Its like asking does the englihs language promote violence or love?  Who knows, it could do either.



One thing that is silly though, is the folks who are arguing christianity promotes violence due to the bible's messages which is kind of silly.  Christianity often has little to do with the bible per se and more to do with official practices supposedly endorsed by the bible.

\
And likewise the christians don't follow the leviticus laws, so this is kind off point for a discussion of christianity.  (though they do like to pick and choose, so they won't kill their children if they talk back but they will claim gays are bad because of it)



I think a better question is why do christians believe that the bible is god's word in its entirety if they ignore portions of it?  Why do they care what moses says?  I mean leviticus wasn't even supposed to be god's word in substantial portions, so why do the jews and christians even pretend that the bible is authoritative?

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Lancaster]
    #10210242 -

The Bible is consistent in the Old Testament and New Testament in its condemnation of individuals who conduct murder or violate the other 10 Commandments. 

Most acts of violence that appear to be condoned in the Old Testament were conducted by the state (Israel), and were directed against some pretty nasty countries that sacrificed their children...  molested animals and the like, and who came back and tried to wipe the Israelites out any time they showed any mercy.  When the Israelites started acting up they ended up getting whooped and ended up as slaves on at least three different occasions too.  Because the Old Testament spends a lot of time reported the acts of Nation States its not really surprising that there would be war War and Violence in it.   

There were also a lot of Food Laws and Other Civil laws of conduct which were harshly enforced. In a society without modern medicine, which the threat of War meant possible annihilation, and without a large police force to maintain order, harsh enforcements were a pragmatic response to the reality of the situation and not an indication that viciousness are an ideal.

Even with reportedly "necessary" wars in the Old Testament, though God might have supported the Israelite's, there was a penalty.  God wouldn't allow David to build the temple because he was a man of Blood who had fought too many wars. 

In the New Testament Jesus didn't deny the right of a nation state to defend itself or make war. (give unto Caesar what is Caesar) The Big difference is that Jesus made the point that real change, the changing of hearts and minds, doesn't come through violence.  He also gave hope that even those nasty child murdering animal molesting folks can be redeemed and that people can change with Gods help.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10210293 -

In the Old Testament there was no means for God to be both Merciful and Just.  If God showed Mercy to those who deserved punishment then there was no Justice.  And God wont break his own law. Thus again, the Old Testament does seem less merciful than the New Testament.

The Entire theme of the New Testament was that Jesus took the penalty for Sin, allowing God to be both Merciful and Just. Because he paid the penalty, the Sin did not go un-judged.

Gods nature didn't change, the situation, and Man's relationship with God did change.  A Policeman will likely treat his child differently than some street thug.  That doesn't make the Policeman inconsistent or unfair, its the circumstances that are different.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10210431 -

As far as violence throughout History.  A post above argued that more people as a proportion of the worlds population were killed through religious violence than through Communist genocides.

Yes you could argue that cause Cain killed Able, he technically killed a quarter of the Worlds Population.  I still think that Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and others crimes were far more significant and evil.  And more people have been killed by the supposedly enlightened post religious communist nations and Nazis (who essentially worshiped the state, and placed the state above God and the church) than through all the religious wars throughout History.  Part of that is simply due to technology, people can kill each other quicker now.  However that is not all.  Though sometime people used religion as a pretext to commit atrocities, it was usually the values instilled by those religions that limited and eventually stopped those atrocities.  Whereas it was only ever the death of the perpetrators or the death of all their victims that ever limited atheist driven atrocities.

Another thing to look at is individual crime.  Irreligious societies usually have to compensate for the loss of the self regulating role religion plays in society by replacing it with a large security establishment and or cradle to grave social programs and essentially take away the individuals responsibility for taking care of or regulating themselves.

A Theocracy can lead to a reduction of freedoms, but so does an atheist nation.  Because in every negative way, atheism is just like religion in the passions it evokes, without providing a logical justification for behaving in a moral fashion.  An Atheist can be a good and moral person, but it is always based either on their upbringing, which somewhere in the past had some religious foundation, or on what is popular in society at the time.  That can happen to supposedly religious people too however.  When a society, religious or irreligious replaces religion as the basis of their morality and replace it with whats popular, that's when Genocide and other atrocities, or simple bad behavior all of a sudden become acceptable

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10210887 -

Quote:
Arghhhh said: Because in every negative way, atheism is just like religion in the passions it evokes, without providing a logical justification for behaving in a moral fashion.


Are you saying that no atheists have logical justification for behaving morally?

Are you saying that all theists have logical justification for behaving morally?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: deCypher]
    #10210966 -

Despite any Christian blather on morality, large-scale studies in the USA show atheists to be slightly more moral (but not significantly) based upon divorce rates, alcoholism, adultery, spousal abuse and general crime stats. (No linkee - look it up!)

What this says is that people basically do what they want no matter their teachings.


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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10211016 -

Are these people actually followers of the religion or do they just put (insert religion) on a piece of paper. Cuz that makes a difference...


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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: learningtofly]
    #10211025 -

learningtofly said:
Are these people actually followers of the religion or do they just put (insert religion) on a piece of paper. Cuz that makes a difference...


Thanks to OC for mentioning the name earlier; you've fallen prey to the No True Scotsman fallacy.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: deCypher]
    #10215690 -




Are you saying that no atheists have logical justification for behaving morally?

Are you saying that all theists have logical justification for behaving morally?


No, the desire to be popular and get along with your neighbors is a logical justification for behaving well. It seems to be the primary basis for many if not most religious and atheist's moral beliefs.  So an atheist can have a logical basis for their concept of morality. 

What I'm saying is that atheism itself doesn't provide a logical basis for good behavior, and in fact undermines a belief in any beliefs in right and wrong that stand outside what is expedient or what is popular at the moment.

Religion offers a final moral authority and backstop when a society runs amok.  Moral relativism would have accepted the Holocaust as what was necessary or expedient or popular at the time.  Those for whom being popular, and getting on with their neighbors, was the only basis for their morality, accepted it.  While those in Germany who opposed it (atheist or deist) had a moral system that was based on religious values even if they were not religious themselves and prevented them from going with the flow.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10215817 -

Quote:
What I'm saying is that atheism itself doesn't provide a logical basis for good behavior, and in fact undermines a belief in any beliefs in right and wrong that stand outside what is expedient or what is popular at the moment.


So you think humans are void of any sense of morality without a system devised by... other humans?

Quote:
While those in Germany who opposed it (atheist or deist) had a moral system that was based on religious values even if they were not religious themselves and prevented them from going with the flow.



It has been atheists and deists, who for more than a handful of decades, have been fighting to lessen the influence of the church. Perhaps they got their morals from the same source the church fathers did? We're all human, as far as I know.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10216668 -

Arghhhh said:
Religion offers a final moral authority and backstop when a society runs amok.


They claim to, but as far as I'm aware all authority in religion ultimately rests from man-written doctrine.  And what's prevent a group of immoral, persuasive people from banding together and forming a religion based on evil?  All religion provides is a codified system that uses tradition to mandate an arbitrary morality; this is hardly a logical justification.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Rahz]
    #10220802 -

Quote:
We're all human, as far as I know.



I agree we are all human.

Quote:
So you think humans are void of any sense of morality without a system devised by... other humans?



If you settled a whole bunch of babies on a deserted Island, (who somehow miraculously survived) with no religion or moral upbringing to draw upon, what kind of society do you imagine would develop? 

Don't you think any order that emerged would be based upon might makes right? either who is the strongest or the most popular, power to dominate others or self preservation and protection based on making friends in order to outnumber others.  Self preservation and the pursuit of power are the only moral systems that come naturally to mankind without an outside influence.

If the pursuit of power or self preservation is the the only basis for a system of morality then any action, no matter how heinous, treacherous or evil can be justified to obtain those goals.  Seeking popularity and self preservation will not bring about world peace, because once those concerns are satisfied there is no need for additional friends.  Under that system Genocide is fine if it benefits you and your group of friends, because there is no outside source of morality to say otherwise.  Self Sacrifice, allowing someone to kill you rather than allow them to force you to commit some heinous act doesn't make sense under those systems of morality.  Doing the right thing or doing a kind act, even when no-one will know, doesn't make sense either.  Look at the way rioters behave when they think they can get away with it.

The belief that there is an outside arbiter of morality, that there are moral constants that can't be ignored just cause you have enough power or know the right people, is what allows a society to survive. Under that system people will behave without the need for an overbearing and threatening government. (unless of course the religion advocates the bad behavior, though most do not, and in those circumstances the government usually does too).

Throughout history when a nations religious beliefs faded, and people became more cynical and self serving in their behavior, the nations didn't survive long either. Every nation that enforces atheist belief has to have an enormous police and security establishment. If self preservation is the only basis for peoples morality, then Government has to be overbearing and threatening in order to ensure that self preservation motive produces good behavior. 

Remember your grandparents stories of how people used to be polite to each other, and how you could leave your doors unlocked and not worry about people trying to rob you?  That doesn't exist too many places anymore because a lot of people don't regulate themselves anymore.  It's not because of poverty, because throughout history people have been more desperate than anyone living in the U.S. today without resorting to crime, and if they did and got away with it they tried to repay it somehow as soon as they could. I'm convinced that this is because of the decline of religious belief as the basis of morality.  That decline exists amongst "religious" people too, many of whom no longer base their moral beliefs on the religions they claim to belong to. 

Many of societies current moral beliefs about how people should act are hold out beliefs we got from our parents or grandparents, but people often don't act on them except when they think someones watching because they don't truly believe in them. 

Rahz I appreciate the civil discussion. It's rare these days that you can have a discussion on religion without it evolving into a flaming match.  I'm sorry about my lengthy monologues, I hope they don't come across as preachy.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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