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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: LvMkngFlwrChld]
    #10542260 -

No, derisive laughter simply means ignorance of the meaning of myth and of Hebrew midrash. Midrash entailed linguistic illuminations - stories intended to convey a spiritual truth. Midrash was not intended to mean literal historical events. Hebrew writings are to be interpreted along four lines. The method is called PRDS, an acronym and one that means 'paradise' or 'orchard' in translation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardes_(Jewish_exegesis)

As to mythos, or mythology proper, I'd recommend Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth [illustrated version]. You are obviously trapped in a materialistic bias which does not grok the psychospiritual reality of myth. Neither do you appreciate the  universal features originating in the Collective Unconscious, or its consequences for the very important aspect of human experience called Initiation. The archetypal themes of birth-death-rebirth, or birth-death-resurrection, both hailing from ideas of cyclical or linear time are HUGELY important in human historical development. Moderns are sorely lacking in Initiation rituals. What we have are gang initiations, college hazings, Greek letter fraternities/sororities and military basic training on the one hand; Bar/Bat Mitzvas, Quinces, baby showers, weddings, childbirth, and funerals on the other (secular/criminal and religious). The Psychedelic Experience, since time immemorial has revealed to countless people the universal themes which only then became translated into the images and rituals of classic mythology. Most people only see other peoples' religions as mythology, never their own. Then they confound history with mythology and dismiss the entire thing from their minds (as you have done).

Nobody can dismiss mythic themes because we live those themes, and the psyche produces images as well as profound accompanying emotions such as awe, wonder, ecstasy, dread and terror in the face of the Mysterium Tremendum et Fascinans - The Tremendous and Fascinating Mystery. Humans require Mystery even more than they require 'answers' to the big questions of life. Mystery, welling up from the depths of one's being, or descending from transcendental domains of Mind are the source of healthy human functioning. Otherwise the malaise of modernity in the forms of nihilism, existentialism, and materialism occur, which in turn result in depression/anger, madness, excesses of the senses, meaninglessness and suicide. On the other hand, the appropriation of mythic themes by the pathologically inflated ego - the power drive - leads to religious extremism, terrorism and war. The idea is to understand myth and embody its truths through the development of a self-realized human life. If you throw the baby out with the bathwater, there will be no self-realization or enlightenment in your life.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10542642 -

Arghhhh said:
Atheism only motivates a person to fulfill what they consider their needs and wants, and allows no moral judgment upon the means they use to obtain those goals. It unleashes the primitive, violent side of humanity which always exists without placing any moral limits upon it. Survival of the fittest is all that matters. If you are hungry theft is justified, and it is only bad if you get caught. Lying to get a job, or a promotion ahead of your coworker is justified because morality is just a social imposition. If you murder and get away with it, that's the same as being innocent because there is no God to judge and no afterlife.


:rofl:

Do you honestly believe this tripe?  Way to make false generalizations; morality is not reliant upon belief in God.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: deCypher]
    #10546341 -

Arghhh, if you need an invisible man shaking his finger at you from thousands of years ago and threatening you with eternal damnation to do the right thing, then you are a horrible person.  I can do the right thing without threats thank you very much.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: LvMkngFlwrChld]
    #10546357 -

What is "the right thing"?


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #10546361 -

The right thing is helpin other peeps out and tryin not to hurt 'em, yo.  it's the golden rule, and religion doesnt own that one, it totally jacked it from the rational peeps dawg

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: LvMkngFlwrChld]
    #10546376 -

Who says that's the "right thing"? Maybe I disagree.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #10546490 -

It is the right thing because I feel like a prick if I do otherwise.  It is the right thing because it is the best way to get others to treat me well.  If you disagree and do not care about the feelings of others you may be a sociopath.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: LvMkngFlwrChld]
    #10546660 -

Those values seem to be based on just as much imaginary authority as any other.


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: blewmeanie]
    #10548224 -

Yeah but they're almost universally agreed on. Our values come from the society that we live in, even for Christians (otherwise they'd be stoning adulterers).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: zouden]
    #10549145 -

Yep, and I agree with them.

The point was that there's not really anything for anyone to base their idea of what is "right and wrong" on, we all look for some sort of authority on the matter. Whether it's "god", the government, or the concept of mass consensus, were all appealing to an artificial authority for the sake of a relatively peaceful society.

Disregarding the religious person as weak minded or ignorant for appealing to "god" is pretty silly when were all really doing the same thing in our own way.

That's my perspective on it anyway.:crazy2:


--------------------
The Prophecy!

Learn To Code

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10550559 -

I never recalled the Bible trying to promote anything one way or the other. Usually it was some dude who went to a Church, he may know the name of, correctly. It seems that this dude bears with him the Good Book, which he clearly has not read any more of than the vague passages referred to in a Sunday service. The dude has read less than maybe 15% of the book, having no working knowledge of the people or the history of the area itself in which the stories supposedly took place.

Its about this point that you gotta consider the concept at hand. Did the Bible promote anything, or was it simply a bigger, broader shadow for the truth to hide behind. A shadow cast by an infallible source, so that the truth, no matter how ridiculous, violent, or antithetic to human existence can hide safely away behind its great shield of lies.

The Bible doesn't promote anything, usually its just a symbol used to promote something else. An age old used car salesman tactic, that has skillfully killed millions in the hopes for a better tomorrow. And haphazardly left some good folks in its wake, whom actually bothered to read, and digest, and repeat until they had found all the good bits and applied them. Through trial and error, and little guidance, they had in fact learned some thoroughly useful things. Nothing, I stand to wager, that the Bible has ever promoted has been done of its accord.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: justamonkey]
    #10555598 -

Quote:
No, derisive laughter simply means ignorance of the meaning of myth and of Hebrew midrash. Midrash entailed linguistic illuminations - stories intended to convey a spiritual truth. Midrash was not intended to mean literal historical events. Hebrew writings are to be interpreted along four lines. The method is called PRDS, an acronym and one that means 'paradise' or 'orchard' in translation

You are obviously trapped in a materialistic bias which does not grok the psychospiritual reality of myth.



Try actually reading the Bible. You make statements about the intents of the authors which completely ignores what they wrote. At practically every turn the texts provide details and information which is not essential to the telling of a story, or presenting a moral message, or enlightenment of a concept and is only there to give it creditability in the historical context. They practically scream "I'm serious about this, it really happened."

Now there are some passages and scripture which does somewhat meet the characterization you've described, such as much of Psalms, the Song of Solomon and various of Jesus Parables. The writers present stories to illustrate a point, or poetic generalizations of Gods Greatness or warnings against giving into Lustful men who will run off and leave you once they got what they want. The writers often don't give names in these passages, and certainly don't include lengthy genealogies or details of placing it in historical context. There isn't any attempt by the writers to portray them as actual events, thereby creating a myth. It appears however you are expanding this characterization of the Bible as Myth to include much more than those passages and books.

This characterization isn't based on any reading of the text, nor based on any historical record disproving any event. Despite a concerted effort to disprove the historical validity of the Bible by many, no such conclusion in the positive has ever stood up to scrutiny in the long run, while the events described in the bible are continuously being proven confirmed as having actually occur ed.  So your opposition to the Bible as historically true isn't based upon evidence but rather the Prue-supposition, or faith, that there is no God, or if there is one he is not interested in the affairs of man, therefore any account regarding his interaction with man must be myth.
Whereas a belief in God would make it logical to believe that there would be at least one accurate account of his interaction with Man.

This isn't a materialistic bias, this is simply basic English comprehension, the logical assessment of a writers intent by what they write and the way they write it. To attempt to obfuscate a writers clearly intended purpose in order to to "disprove" it, or justify some contrary philosophy does however demonstrate a bias on the part of the obfuscator.

A myth can demonstrate a moral truth, or present a false morality.  Because it is, in the end, a creation of man. It reflects a mans opinion and therefore has no added weight than the opinion of the man who hears it. It can reflect and reinforce a societies morality, however as a societies morality alters for better or worse, the morality endorsed by such a recognized myth becomes increasingly irrelevant and is discarded easily. Many "Christians" believe the same way about the Bible, and do alter their views of morality with whatever is socially expedient and acceptable at the time.

However, it is not logical to believe in a real God, and believe that all religious texts are myths at the same time. It makes sense that God would have revealed himself to mankind at sometime and that someone would have thought it was worth writing about.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10555998 -

Quote:
It is the right thing because I feel like a prick if I do otherwise.  It is the right thing because it is the best way to get others to treat me well.  If you disagree and do not care about the feelings of others you may be a sociopath.



Quote:
Yeah but they're almost universally agreed on. Our values come from the society that we live in, even for Christians (otherwise they'd be stoning adulterers).



Quote:
The point was that there's not really anything for anyone to base their idea of what is "right and wrong" on, we all look for some sort of authority on the matter. Whether it's "god", the government, or the concept of mass consensus, were all appealing to an artificial authority for the sake of a relatively peaceful society.



I'm not sure if you are disagreeing with me or not, since this was discussed earlier in the discussion and your practically quoting me on where an atheist will derive his morality from. Though I discussed it in more detail earlier, the essential element was that while the atheist can be a moral person that morality is derived from other things such as societies rules, or family upbringing, which are derived in large extent from the moral concepts of current religious influence or religious influence somewhere in the past. They may also be derived from what you can get out of it, whether popularity or quid pro-quo, the expectation that you will be treated likewise in return. This is fine as long as the moral choice benefits you, but what if it doesn't? Is it no longer moral? 

Quote:
I can do the right thing without threats thank you very much.



But can you do the right thing in spite of threats? That is the challenge for everyone christian or not.

In a civil society an Atheist and anyone else can and often is a very moral person. And the Atheists moral stance based upon family upbringing or social conventions may be strong enough that they can answer that question in the affirmative. However Atheism is working against them in making that moral choice, because atheism offers no moral component other than survival of the fittest and life is an accident.

Religion however can provide a moral bulwark to those decisions, reinforcing the individuals choice to do the right thing, even though it is against their personal interests, even though it may be unpopular, and runs contrary to the current socially accepted view point, even through persecution.


A true, factual God, justifies an objective and universal morality, which is not subject to opinion pole, or political scape goating and demagoguery, or false scientists claiming one group of people are sub-human. Following the crowd is easy and convenient social rules are not a moral challenge. Going against those convenient social rules, and going against your own personal interests because something is wrong, requires a morality which isn't based upon social conventions.

Oh yeah. Christians never stoned anyone. Jesus demonstrated how Christians are supposed to act with adulterers and it didn't involve stoning.

Quote:
Are you kidding? Christian nations stop being violent when they realize it's UN-Christian of them? When has that ever happened? Did being Christian stop the US dropping napalm in Vietnam? Christian nations do whatever they can to benefit themselves,



So you believe a morality never caused a change in a nations policy? never affected the choice or removal of a leader? Moral principles derived from the Bible and Christians standing up for them, ended Slavery. It caused the abhorrence of some methods used in war, an abhorrence which isn't universally shared. It causes individuals to change the way they conduct themselves on a daily basis. No nation state yet has completely demonstrated a consistent Christian approach, because they do govern for the self interests of their people. But while Christianity and the social conventions based upon it, offers a moral code which a society can use to moderate and alter its government's behavior, Atheism doesn't provide any moral framework for criticizing this behavior.

Quote:
I never recalled the Bible trying to promote anything one way or the other.

The dude has read less than maybe 15% of the book, having no working knowledge of the people or the history of the area itself in which the stories supposedly took place.



Your implication that the Bible must not be true because one person hasn't read it all yet isn't to rational. Even if you argue a lot of people haven't read it, it still doesn't make it rational. I have and every criticism I've ever read or heard was from people taking verses out of the context of the chapters, books, and out of it's historical context too, not the other way around. They apply unique irrational standards to their interpretation of the bible, which if applied to other literary works would suggest that William Shakespear's writings were in fact advocating Scientology, NAMBLA and COW suffrage in Presidential elections. The Bible's pretty clear on a lot of stuff. In general terms it is promoting a relationship between man and a loving, merciful, just and living God. There's plenty more too though. Try reading it yourself with the intent to understand whats being said, rather than through the prism of the countless unprovable suppositions some aging neo-hippie activist professor told you or wrote in a book.

Edited by Arghhhh (06/22/09 08:11 PM)

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10557440 -

But morals don't come from the bible. They come from society. Atheists are no different to Christians in that regard. If you think that Christians get their morals from the bible, how come there are no stonings for adultery? The answer, quite obviously, is that society frowns upon such barbaric punishments. This shows that society's morals override those of the bible (and thank goodness for that).


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: zouden]
    #10557456 -

That's not to say that society and the Bible don't have many morals in common, though.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Poid]
    #10557683 -

True. That's because the bible used to have a major effect on society (and still does in many places). But if the bible disappeared tomorrow and everyone forgot about it, we wouldn't suddenly see a major outbreak of chaos and violence. Our morals would continue to be provided by society. If anything, we'd see a reduction in violence as people stop trying to use the bible to justify bigotry.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: zouden]
    #10557705 -

So right! :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Poid]
    #10557724 -

It's simply idiotic to argue that atheists have no basis for morality.  Thankfully I prefer to rely upon a moral code not derived from fear of an omnipotent deity but instead based on Compassion for my fellow man.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: deCypher]
    #10557734 -

Unfortunately, many people cannot do this without the aid of an already existing religious institution. I know this because many of these people are in my family.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10558000 -

Just burn the damn book!

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