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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: zen buddy]
    #10560425 -

What will that fix?


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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10560951 -

Something's broken with it? I thought it was people what did the warring and all.

That book would have a hard time with guns or swords, seeing as how it has no thumbs.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: justamonkey]
    #10560999 -

But it does have opposable covers.


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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10561693 -

I like how it seems to be entirely constructed of rolling paper. That alone sort of makes it more understandable.


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[quote]We don't need anyone to teach us sorcery, because there is really nothing to learn. What we need is a teacher to convince us that there is incalculable power at our fingertips. What a strange paradox! Every warrior on the path of knowledge thinks, at one time or another, that he's learning sorcery, but all he's doing is allowing himself to be convinced of the power hidden in his being, and that he can reach it. [/quote]-Carlos Casteneda

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: deCypher]
    #10599875 -

Quote:
But morals don't come from the bible. They come from society. Atheists are no different to Christians in that regard.



A societies morality does not emerge out of a vacuum. Societies morality emerges partially out of the same motives of self preservation that exist within the individual. The desire to justify the activities you are going to do anyway, with no religious influence required, also partially explains societies morality. This is how rape, pillage, and murder became praise worthy acts reflected in the social morality that emerged among the vikings. All of these influences whether positive out of convenience or negative are equally justified by atheism.

Neither of these influences however explain the emergence of a transcendent moral order, that exists above those societies self interest. A moral code which is not used to justify the acts they are already doing. A code which inspires the individual to act better than his neighbors even when it is not popular, and not to resort to those immoral acts even when he may profit by it, even at the cost of their own life. The emergence of this kind of morality requires religion.

Atheism provides no rational or basis for this kind of a moral code and never has. You appear to concede that our societies morality has its origins in the bible.

Quote:

That's because the bible used to have a major effect on society (and still does in many places).



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But if the bible disappeared tomorrow and everyone forgot about it, we wouldn't suddenly see a major outbreak of chaos and violence. Our morals would continue to be provided by society.



A morality whose origins were based in a religion will linger on in Society's morality, for a time, even after that religion loses influence. It has a half life however. Without that religion there to provided a logical basis for those moral codes they will all slowly be discarded. As atheism or simple religious cynicism become more dominant, the morality of self interest and self justification once again takes precedence.

It is intellectually dishonest to state that if the Bible had never existed we would have an equally moral society. Unapologetic barbarism existed equaly amongst the supposedly civilized empires of the ancient world, and the idealized tribes that pillaged them when they fell. It went unchallenged, was neither disguised nor hidden, and was instead openly celebrated. The spread of Christianity did not have an complete transformative effect on every aspect of those societies, or every individual within them. Particularly those that accepted it "officially" for political advantage rather than through genuine faith, and who clung to old patterns of behavior. But the improvement was vast and improved over time as bad old habits died.

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If anything, we'd see a reduction in violence as people stop trying to use the bible to justify bigotry.



Under the morality of self interest and self justification any moral principle can eventually be dismissed as bigoted as they become inconvenient.

Incidents of violence caused by bigotry of all kinds, contradict Christianity. Its perpetrators commit them because they feel something threatens the way they live and justify their own lives.  As I stated before, morality based on a desire to justify actions you will take anyway, is a heinous form of social morality that will emerge regardless of whether religion is present. Atheists are just as capable of being bigoted and acting on it as everyone else. And they frequently do.

Likewise acts of bigoted violence are vastly out numbered by those incidents of violence which result from people placing what they perceive as their self interest above an absolute moral code. An ungodly, secular and atheist society encourages people to make that choice because it denies the validity of an absolute moral code. It teaches a flexible morality completely determined by the situation and your personal need.

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It's simply idiotic to argue that atheists have no basis for morality.  Thankfully I prefer to rely upon a moral code not derived from fear of an omnipotent deity but instead based on Compassion for my fellow man.



Your compassion for your fellow man is based on a social morality that has its origins in the bible. You were brought up with it, taught it, and surrounded by people who believe the same. It has no basis or justification whatsoever in Atheism. Compassion for your fellow man is not instinctive to man, nor universal. Look around the world. People do what profits themselves, at the expense of others. If their success or preeminence is threatened or their lives made more convenient, they will commit the most heinous acts. Their justification for these acts are consistent with atheism, which offers no moral guide or basis for judgment, other than survival of the fittest. Their acts are not consistent with a belief in an absolute moral code which atheism denies and mocks, but which religions promote.

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If you think that Christians get their morals from the bible, how come there are no stonings for adultery? The answer, quite obviously, is that society frowns upon such barbaric punishments. This shows that society's morals override those of the bible (and thank goodness for that).



You persist in this lie that Christians stoned people for adultery even after called on it. There is no example in the bible in which Christians were encouraged to stone anyone. Jesus stopped the stoning of a adulteress. The only new testament examples of stonings were of Christians being stoned for their faith. Nor are there any historical examples of Christians using stoning as a punishment.

Our societies abhorrence for brutality is part of its Christian heritage. It did not emerge out of thin air. Look around the world, other societies without a strong biblical heritage and tradition don't have as big a problem with brutal punishments. Nor do they look back upon their own histories with any criticism of former barbarism as we do. It is primarily western societies with a christian heritage that bring any attention to them at all.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10600005 -

Quote:
Arghhhh said:
Quote:
It's simply idiotic to argue that atheists have no basis for morality.  Thankfully I prefer to rely upon a moral code not derived from fear of an omnipotent deity but instead based on Compassion for my fellow man.



Your compassion for your fellow man is based on a social morality that has its origins in the bible. You were brought up with it, taught it, and surrounded by people who believe the same.


Wrong.  I was raised in an atheist household, and I was taught to do good for others because it's the right thing to do, not because Judeo-Christian ethics say it's the right thing to do.

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Arghhhh said: It has no basis or justification whatsoever in Atheism. Compassion for your fellow man is not instinctive to man, nor universal.


Again, wrong.  All species tend to exhibit altruistic behaviors; this is a means for survival of the group as opposed to selfish behaviors which are means for survival of the individual.  The competition between the two is what breeds such an interesting relationship between 'good' and 'evil' behaviors.  Compassion for your fellow man is just as natural as hatred for your fellow man.

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Arghhhh said: Look around the world. People do what profits themselves, at the expense of others. If their success or preeminence is threatened or their lives made more convenient, they will commit the most heinous acts.


Some do, some don't.  Others will sacrifice themselves for their children, their loved ones, or even a complete stranger.  Your generalizations are shockingly false.

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Arghhhh said: Their justification for these acts are consistent with atheism, which offers no moral guide or basis for judgment, other than survival of the fittest.


Incorrect, considering that plenty of atheists self-identify as being moral.  I'm sorry that you seem to think belief in God is necessary to be a moral person.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10600169 -

Quote:
The emergence of this kind of morality requires religion.


It requires integrity. If it required religion, the world would be a much better place.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10601565 -

Quote:
You persist in this lie that Christians stoned people for adultery even after called on it. There is no example in the bible in which Christians were encouraged to stone anyone.


Leviticus 20:10 (New International Version)
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:22 (New International Version)
If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

I'm sure the incidence of stonings went down after Jesus spoke out against it, but that doesn't change the fact that the Bible clearly promotes violence.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: zouden]
    #10601662 -

Everybody must get stoned! ~ Bob Dylan


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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #10602582 -

Quote:
Quote:
Your compassion for your fellow man is based on a social morality that has its origins in the bible. You were brought up with it, taught it, and surrounded by people who believe the same.




Wrong. I was raised in an atheist household, and I was taught to do good for others because it's the right thing to do, not because Judeo-Christian ethics say it's the right thing to do.



Your comment is completely irrelevant to the comment you claim to be answering, as well as everything else that was said in both that post and all my previous posts. Your idea of what is right and wrong is influenced by the Judeo-Christian society you grew up in whether you and your parents believe in the basis for it or not. Had you and your parents grown up in a society that had different ideas of what is right and wrong, you would believe those. You would not have spontaneously adopted moral codes which coincidentally mirror those of Judeo-Christian societies. because Atheism doesn't provide its own moral code. I specifically said a religions influence on a societies morality lingers on for a time even after that religion loses influence.

Quote:
Compassion for your fellow man is just as natural as hatred for your fellow man.

Some do, some don't.  Others will sacrifice themselves for their children, their loved ones, or even a complete stranger. Your generalizations are shockingly false.



Compassion for those whom you like, have an affection for, or when the relationship profits you, is not particularly altruistic. Even Everyone dies eventually, children carry on your genetic code and give your life a sense of immortality and meaning which carries on. Moral choices based upon these motives are all consistent with self interest. And making "moral" choices based upon these criteria does not prevent you from committing extremely heinous and immoral acts against those that don't fit in those categories.

Hitler had plenty of friends who liked him, and whom he treated well, a girl friend who he apparently kept happy and was also very kind to his pets...  None of that made him a moral person. A morality limited to self interest, even the interests of your family, will justify all manner of evil.

Quote:
Incorrect, considering that plenty of atheists self-identify as being moral.  I'm sorry that you seem to think belief in God is necessary to be a moral person. 



I covered already. A persons efforts to justify themselves and the actions they will do anyway, does not make them moral. Klansman hanging people considered themselves very moral and many German Guards at the Auschwitz considered themselves moral. The Communists in China the Soviet Union who killed millions of people to establish their utopia also considered themselves moral. Most Psychopaths think they are moral individuals. I've never met a real life "Dr Evil." How a person self-identifies is completely irrelevant to whether they are moral or not. Because all a person requires to consider them self moral, is to find someone who is worse.

Quote:
I'm sure the incidence of stonings went down after Jesus spoke out against it, but that doesn't change the fact that the Bible clearly promotes violence.



So your "evidence" of Christians stoning people is from books written before any Christians existed? Interesting logic.

Place books in the context they were written. Many Old Testament laws and punishments reflected the practicalities of their environments, and were choices made by governments to ensure societies survival. Governments reflect the needs and desires of its people.  The Choices related to punishments made in the desert are not God's ideal or a mandate for Christian behavior. Had it been God's ideal it would have remained unchanged within the Old Testament. The harshest punishments took place while the Hebrews were wondering the desert for 40 years. There were no prisons, and the society demonstrated an early fragility and willingness to fragment at the earliest opportunity, even in the face of enemies who would have annihilated them all. Had government not taken responsibility for punishing transgressions social vigilantes would have, leading to tribal disputes which would have torn an early nation apart. Had it not enforced strict food and hygiene code, a sick population would have been unable to move. At other points of the Old Testament you see no punishments at all however. Habits of morality do not change overnight. In the Old Testament you see a practical God dealing with society which changes over time. The morality and need for salvation taught by Jesus would not have been accepted at an earlier time. Society first had to recognize its inability to follow a legalistic code, even ten commandments, that all men fall short of the glory of God before they would value that kind of salvation.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10602631 -

Quote:
Arghhhh said: Your comment is completely irrelevant to the comment you claim to be answering, as well as everything else that was said in both that post and all my previous posts. Your idea of what is right and wrong is influenced by the Judeo-Christian society you grew up in whether you and your parents believe in the basis for it or not. Had you and your parents grown up in a society that had different ideas of what is right and wrong, you would believe those. You would not have spontaneously adopted moral codes which coincidentally mirror those of Judeo-Christian societies. because Atheism doesn't provide its own moral code. I specifically said a religions influence on a societies morality lingers on for a time even after that religion loses influence.


It is probable that Judeo-Christian morality has in some way affected the society that I live in, sure.  This does not mean that I would be amoral if Christianity had never existed, however.  Morality only implies a belief in right and wrong; belief in God is not necessary.

Quote:
Arghhhh said: I covered already. A persons efforts to justify themselves and the actions they will do anyway, does not make them moral. Klansman hanging people considered themselves very moral and many German Guards at the Auschwitz considered themselves moral. The Communists in China the Soviet Union who killed millions of people to establish their utopia also considered themselves moral. Most Psychopaths think they are moral individuals. I've never met a real life "Dr Evil." How a person self-identifies is completely irrelevant to whether they are moral or not. Because all a person requires to consider them self moral, is to find someone who is worse.


You are correct in that self-identification with morality does not necessarily imply morality; nonetheless, plenty of atheists do behave morally without belief in God and as such your argument utterly fails.  A moral atheist helps people not because he or she believes in God, but rather because he or she is compassionate and empathetic towards other people's suffering.

Also, how many self-proclaimed Christians have behaved immorally?  The Inquisition, the Crusades, and even the millions of murders, rapes, and robberies committed by Christians are testament that belief in God does not automatically dictate moral behavior.

(inb4 No True Scotsman fallacy)


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: deCypher]
    #10603560 -

Quote:
This does not mean that I would be amoral if Christianity had never existed, however.



Whatever morality you had would be based upon a combination of whatever religion influenced the society you grew up in and self interest.  Christian morality has influenced much of the world in a positive way, even those in societies which practice other religions. Whatever moral system you grew up in would be very different than the one you live in now, and not for the better. 

Quote:
plenty of atheists do behave morally without belief in God and as such your argument utterly fails.

how many self-proclaimed Christians have behaved immorally?



Ive answered these specific points about a dozen times now, in progressively more excruciating detail, to cover all the bases and avoid confusion. I find it interesting that you can declare an argument utterly fails without apparently having read it.

If there is genuine confusion about a point I've made, or I'm unclear, tell me where and I'll try to explain better.

Edited by Arghhhh (07/01/09 01:22 PM)

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10603574 -

Arghhhh said:
Whatever morality you had would be based upon a combination of whatever religion influenced the society you grew up in and self interest.


Not necessarily.  My genetic predisposition towards having an emotional reaction at seeing wrong-doing also could contribute a factor to my developed morality.  Also it is quite possible to rationally develop a system of ethics a la Kant; something that is not reliant upon cultural or societal tradition.

I have read your arguments in this thread and have seen no counter to the fact that some atheists behave morally and that some theists behave immorally.  One does not have to believe in God to know what is right and what is wrong.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: deCypher]
    #10603685 -

Quote:
Religion offers the basis for a higher morality but that doesn't mean everyone claiming to believe in that religion actually guide their life's decisions by it.

Many supposedly religious people in America are so secularized that Sunday is the only time they demonstrate anything that indicates that they actually belong to a religion.  I often hear people say they are religious but its private.  People think any expression of religious belief in their daily lives is intolerant of others, and so act throughout their normal day in the same manner as everyone else to blend in and not offend anyone.

They usually end up adopting the same values, consciously or unconsciously as a secular society that denies God. They sacrifice other moral beliefs so they can be accepted by the crowd and achieve that primary goal of acceptance and self preservation. So even for many people claiming a belief in God, their value system is in practice, no more enlightened than the seeking of power and self preservation that atheism offers.



There's one explaining how societies negative values, self interest and selfishness can influence a religious person, just as societies values based in religion can influence an atheist. There's a whole bunch more. I'll look for them later.  I've discussed the basis for Atheists morality and the reason they can act morally adnauseum.

Quote:
One does not have to believe in God to know what is right and what is wrong.



That point hasn't been made. I've stated repeatedly that an individual with no belief in God can still have an awareness of right and wrong based upon their societies moral code, which does have a basis in religion and a belief in God.

Quote:
it is quite possible to rationally develop a system of ethics a la Kant; something that is not reliant upon cultural or societal tradition.



This is interesting, tell me more. What is the rational basis of this system of ethics. How can its logical basis be completely separate from the society it emerged from, and motives of self interest?

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10603702 -

Quote:
Arghhhh said: I've stated repeatedly that an individual with no belief in God can still have an awareness of right and wrong based upon their societies moral code, which does have a basis in religion and a belief in God.


Then we agree: atheists can be moral.

Quote:
Arghhhh said: What is the rational basis of this system of ethics. How can its logical basis be completely separate from the society it emerged from, and motives of self interest?


Look up Kant's categorical imperative.  You're looking for fool's gold if you think any theory can be wholly devoid of societal influences, but there are certainly many systems of morality that do not rely upon "because God said so" to determine right and wrong.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10603731 -

Human primates due to the awareness of personal death, developed (IMO) the idea of God to help deal with death anxiety. So the idea of God and as such morality (as opposed to ethics) is programmed into us from birth whether you are "religious" or not which I believe is your point. Religious belief and  morality is  basic to culture and so is basic to our mind map/set.

This in no way is proof of course of the existence of God.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Arghhhh]
    #10604275 -

Quote:
Quote:
zouden said:
I'm sure the incidence of stonings went down after Jesus spoke out against it, but that doesn't change the fact that the Bible clearly promotes violence.


So your "evidence" of Christians stoning people is from books written before any Christians existed? Interesting logic.


Read the title of the thread again. The question is regarding the bible, not Christianity. As I've said before, I'd like Christians more if they disregarded the old testament. But they don't.


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I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: zouden]
    #10604335 -

zouden said:
As I've said before, I'd like Christians more if they disregarded the old testament.


Why does it matter if they disregard the Old Testament or not?

:jacked:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: Poid]
    #10604437 -

The excerpts from the bible that I posted above are from the old testament.


--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
                                                part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
                                                    but truth is the hardest thing to see

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Re: Does the Bible promote violence or non-violence? [Re: zouden]
    #10607023 -

To be fair, there are also some violent passages in the NT, and there are some more benevolent ones in the OT as well. :shrug:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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